Junia-a female NT apostle

[Johann]

Buchenwald, here we come...

Did you go there on your trip to Europe?

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

Buchenwald, here we come...

Did you go there on your trip to Europe?

Dachau.

`G

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

How many heads does the church have? (Hint - it is right there in the verse you have quoted...)

How many bosses does Lockheed have?

Since you are apparently unable to see it ( unwilling to acknowledge it) - Christ is THE Head of the church. The church (us) is the body of Christ. A body has many members, but only one head. No man is to usurp that from Christ as has been the case with the papal system of the Roman Catholic Church.

WO is not about headship. Ministry and pastoring are about servanthood, not headship. It is also not about authority. A servant is not in authority, but serving the master and carrying out but under the master's authority.

But if you insist on men being heads in the church on the order of Christ, be aware of what the Bible actually says. Paul explains, in the context of husband and wife, that just as Christ came to serve and give himself up, so the husband must do likewise for his wife. Not much about exercising authority or rulership. You happy refer to a wife submitting to her husband and transpose that onto male/female roles in the church. But you also overlook that with regard to submission in the context of church Paul explicitly says that all are to submit to one another, and to count no one superior to another. This is the concept of oneness, unity.

[olger]

Thanks.

Your eschatological utpoia (outlined in your last paragraph) is missing a couple key aspects in my opinion.

1) It is the Bible that lays out the order of headship. Our task is to submit to it, not redefine it to make it "palatable" with culture.

2) A Husband is called to love as Christ loved, that is correct. A women is called to respect and yield her spirit to a relationship with her husband, that is also correct.

3) Paul says that a woman is not to didasko a man, and the church of Thyatira is signally rebuked for allowing a woman "Jezebel" to 'didasko.' He then appeals to the creation order as sufficient reason for his explanation of male headship.

4) I agree that headship is not synonymous with dictatorship. Not sure why that needed to be explained between us, Tom.

5) No one is transposing gender roles from marriage to church leadership - but rather acknowledging that they are established in the same principle and both flow from the same Biblical canon. The idea that women are being denied equality in biblical headship ignores that each of us have a place to serve - a sphere if you will. Disrupting that sphere to satisfy modern thinking will ultimately harm women. Just as feminism has harmed their spirit.

6) Ellen White (you should like her because she was a woman) said that the "greatest lack in the world" was going to be the lack of men - godly men. That prophecy is fulfilled. How do we meet that problem/opportunity? The answer to the present confusion regarding ordaining women is not to weaken the woman’s contribution but to strengthen the men’s. Local churches must give top priority to evangelizing and discipling men as Jesus did. It is better to teach a man to lead his wife and family than to provide women’s meetings and youth clubs to compensate for a godless father. The Word tells us where to go. Godly wisdom tells us how to get there.

7) Lastly, and more importantly. What looks like a simple difference over the interpretation of Scripture easily slips into a subtle debate about its authority. And behind it all, the very nature of the Godhead is being questioned. To man and woman have been given the answer to a mystery. As in Ephesians 5, the sacrificial love of the husband, and the submission of the wife illustrate to a watching world what God is like. It is a mystery made known to all. Any disruption in these roles & relations result in a witness lost and a mystery stolen.

Make it a great day!

`G

[Neil D]

1) It is the Bible that lays out the order of headship. Our task is to submit to it, not redefine it to make it "palatable" with culture.

[Woody]

Woody is adding Olger to our prayer list.

[olger]

THANKS !!!

[olger]

So, when I see the phrase in the King James version of the bible " Suffer the children ", I am to hold unto traditional wording and not change it...even if a new translation give additional light...

[Gordon1]

"...but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."

Dare we encourage anyone in law-breaking?

Isn't that someone else's job? (includes infernal retirement pkge)

Or have we willingly adopted lawlessness from the other churches?

[Woody]

I choose to accept God's Word.

[Tom Wetmore]

Very seriously, Ger, you really need to get off this liberal vs. whatever you think your ideas are. When it comes to these understandings of Scripture, this is not new theology, progressive, liberal, or whatever label you want to ascribe to it. These scholarly finding are from a very strict reading of the original, going back to the earliest known meaning/interpretation of the Greek. That is a very conservative approach, notwithstanding your frustrated efforts to co-opt that label as your own. Your approach is loose, and taking a modernist take on how to extrapolate meaning onto the words and context based simply on modern English vernacular and your own preconceived cultural understanding of the texts. That is most definitely not conservative theological scholarship.

Go back and carefully read the article about Phoebe from Ministry Magazine, considering carefully the footnotes. That scholarship is conservative, in the truest sense of the word, not your pseudo-conservative revisionism.

And in the context of Adventism, if going back to our roots, to the historic position is inherently a conservative approach, those in favor of WO are much more consistent with the historic Adventism of our founders. The positions you advocate are not going back to that historic point, but falling short by nearly a half century to the time male dominated retrenchment that took place after EGW died.

[olger]

Don't tell people what you think they need, Tom.

It comes off as arrogant and controlling.

Oh,

G

[Gordon1]

Kneeling at the feet of Ministry magazine.

THAT would require recantation.

[Woody]

Why are people so afraid of truth. They choose to attack those that bring the truth rather than looking at what God wants us to look at.

[Neil D]

Neil D said-So, when I see the phrase in the King James version of the bible " Suffer the children ", I am to hold unto traditional wording and not change it...even if a new translation give additional light... [straw man.

[Neil D]

Kneeling at the feet of Ministry magazine.

THAT would require recantation.

Really????

well, it occurs to me that if you are kneeling at the feet of EGW, then you are not a true Christian..... And I suspect that she may emphatically reject your worship.....Because we only kneel at the feet of Jesus...

It also occurs to me that those whose wisdom you benefited from, you might do well to listen to those who has the tools to open up your mind with new light....

[Johann]

Woody is adding Olger to our prayer list.

It would take a lot of prayer and fasting. . .

[Johann]

Why are people so afraid of truth. They choose to attack those that bring the truth rather than looking at what God wants us to look at.

Vegetarian persecution

[Johann]

Don't tell people what you think they need, Tom.

G

And least of all waste your time on Adventists with an Atheistic philosophy governing their Bible interpretation

[joeb]

I am sure your intention was good, but I fail to see in which way your remark is connected to the statement I made

Your statement about how all our thinking is so influenced by the society we live in that we can't really understand the Bible or Ellen White's writings is what I was referring to.

Thus the comment on how we are to be in the world, but not of the world. If we're in the world, but all about serving our Master we will understand His word. We have His promise that this will be so. If we're of the world, we will not be all about serving one master. We will be fence sitters, double minded people, and of we won't have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us.

[Neil D]

Your statement about how all our thinking is so influenced by the society we live in that we can't really understand the Bible or Ellen White's writings is what I was referring to.

Thus the comment on how we are to be in the world, but not of the world. If we're in the world, but all about serving our Master we will understand His word. We have His promise that this will be so. If we're of the world, we will not be all about serving one master. We will be fence sitters, double minded people, and of we won't have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us.

I have a hard time with this....

I know that Elijah heard God with that voice behind the ear....but the woman who gave him the bread for two (?) years never heard Him like Elijah did? And sometimes, Elijah had to listen real hard cuz fear was screaming in his head that the king would kill him.....Yet both were of God, were they not?...each serving the other....

[Johann]

Thanks.

Your eschatological utpoia (outlined in your last paragraph) is missing a couple key aspects in my opinion.

1) It is the Bible that lays out the order of headship. Our task is to submit to it, not redefine it to make it "palatable" with culture.

2) A Husband is called to love as Christ loved, that is correct. A women is called to respect and yield her spirit to a relationship with her husband, that is also correct.

3) Paul says that a woman is not to didasko a man, and the church of Thyatira is signally rebuked for allowing a woman "Jezebel" to 'didasko.' He then appeals to the creation order as sufficient reason for his explanation of male headship.

4) I agree that headship is not synonymous with dictatorship. Not sure why that needed to be explained between us, Tom.

5) No one is transposing gender roles from marriage to church leadership - but rather acknowledging that they are established in the same principle and both flow from the same Biblical canon. The idea that women are being denied equality in biblical headship ignores that each of us have a place to serve - a sphere if you will. Disrupting that sphere to satisfy modern thinking will ultimately harm women. Just as feminism has harmed their spirit.

6) Ellen White (you should like her because she was a woman) said that the "greatest lack in the world" was going to be the lack of men - godly men. That prophecy is fulfilled. How do we meet that problem/opportunity? The answer to the present confusion regarding ordaining women is not to weaken the woman’s contribution but to strengthen the men’s. Local churches must give top priority to evangelizing and discipling men as Jesus did. It is better to teach a man to lead his wife and family than to provide women’s meetings and youth clubs to compensate for a godless father. The Word tells us where to go. Godly wisdom tells us how to get there.

7) Lastly, and more importantly. What looks like a simple difference over the interpretation of Scripture easily slips into a subtle debate about its authority. And behind it all, the very nature of the Godhead is being questioned. To man and woman have been given the answer to a mystery. As in Ephesians 5, the sacrificial love of the husband, and the submission of the wife illustrate to a watching world what God is like. It is a mystery made known to all. Any disruption in these roles & relations result in a witness lost and a mystery stolen.

Make it a great day!

`G

How do you expect people to have a great day after this production of yours? Based on falsehood - something introduced within SDA circles to provide an "excuse" for making some new teachings palatable. It reminds of the way Augustine introduced original sin to justify infant baptism and the special role of unmarried male priests. A powerful male priesthood that has greatly influence their role for the past 1600 years and still do in the minds of certain people.

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

Your statement about how all our thinking is so influenced by the society we live in that we can't really understand the Bible or Ellen White's writings is what I was referring to.

Thus the comment on how we are to be in the world, but not of the world. If we're in the world, but all about serving our Master we will understand His word. We have His promise that this will be so. If we're of the world, we will not be all about serving one master. We will be fence sitters, double minded people, and of we won't have the Holy Spirit to lead and guide us.

I have a hard time with this....

I know that Elijah heard God with that voice behind the ear....but the woman who gave him the bread for two (?) years never heard Him like Elijah did? And sometimes, Elijah had to listen real hard cuz fear was screaming in his head that the king would kill him.....Yet both were of God, were they not?...each serving the other....

You're equating one of the most dedicated, outspoken, and brave prophets God has ever had who, in a moment of discouragment and physical exhaustion, became afraid and despondent to people who just can't quite make up their minds if they want to follow God completely, or if they just want to sit in church and never really give their hearts to God. The second description is an accurate description of a fence sitter.

[Tom Wetmore]

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2013/07/junia-the-apostle

The article as published in Minstry Magazine.

[Neil D]

Thanks for the article, Tom...Another nail that firmly fixes that women can be apostles and well admired for this biblical gift...

As I am thinking about this, I still wonder what the plan and how the dynamics of this plays out in our sinfilled world...I know that we have women who believe in a "headship" model, that supresses the talents and abilities coming from this belief. And yet, we have evidence of both religious and non-religious women who show evidence of apostle abilities...even from women coming from a headship belief....How much more could the advancement of the Gospel could be obtained from women who believe that they are apostles and have those abilities?

And I wonder about the men, and how the dynamics of a relationship come from men who believe that women come from men's ribs, to be loved and treasured, not trampled upon, nor abused, nor belittled....