Katrina - Punishment From God

[Robert]

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God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself.

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I deleted my ranting....You are welcome.

[Neil D]

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However, I suppose it is sometimes easier to accept calamity if we can somehow add the moral component of our choice to it. We can make sense of something mindless if we tell ourselves that it was driven by a supernatural mind. So maybe what we call ignorant superstition in the context of the Dark Ages is just human nature.

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I have to ask...If I attribute the destructiveness of a hurricane or other natural desaster to the Devil because humans choose to understand evil as well as the good [see genesis 3], is that going to be concidered mythical? Superstitious? PRactical?

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We laugh at the jungle witch doctors who tell their patients that the fever is an evil spirit, that the drought was the vengeance of an angry god who must be appeased, that the flood was because of a spell cast by a neighboring tribe. How does that differ from us attributing Katrina to the judgement of the devil, or punishment from God?

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There are some of us who believe that there was a small group of people, long ago now irradicated from the earth, who understood many things, that had great knowledge. These people did teach some of the lessor and was able to pass on thier knowledge by using [what we would concider as ]'magic' words. And some of those same less technical people were able to understand and make improvements on thier understanding thru thier practice of shaman's magic, ect. As we today, attempt to understand those same 'magic' philosophies, we find that we can trace back a good reasons/pricnicples for some of the magic....Is it magic or knowledge that was passed down in it's most rudimentary form?

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The same goes for other natural disasters and AIDS. Wether you serve a jungle spirit, or the god of Abraham makes no difference. You are doing the same thing, only attributing it to a different god.

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So, does that make me a shaman? A supernatural wizard? An ol' man depending upon the ultimate forces of the universe? Attempting to understand the unknowable?

[Bravus]

I guess one question is, "If Katrina was a punishment of New Orleans for sexual immorality, what have the small towns in western Louisiana and eastern Texas been up to that deserved a smiting?"

[Neil D]

[tic]

Well, Bravus, dontcha know??????

When God did the Sodom and Gamorrah thingy, he managed to get the surrounding towns because of thier wickedness as well!!!!

[/tic]

[Restin]

Explaining a hurricane, disease, El Nina, etc. by our advances in science does not necessarily explain it away spiritually. A Scientific explanation doesn't mean Lucifer doesn't do it, it just explains HOW he does it. Yet, I'm thinking that as long as scientists can explain away any catastrophic event, people will never see this as any warning from God and will never go along with any Sunday Law. It has to be, in my opinion, clearly a supernatural event that affects the whole world, that the scientists can't explain away. Only something like that will be sufficient to instill the kind of SOUL fear that will make people clamour for a Sunday law to appease a so-called "angry" god. What if meteorite showers hit every large city in the world, and ONLY the cities. That might make people wonder what's up..

[Restin]

You ask what the small towns are up to, Bravus? maybe petty vanity, meanness, cheating, selfishness, gossip, stealing on the job, spending all spare time on buying DVD's, trinkets, silly TV shows, or gory/violent ones. maybe that's it.

[Bravus]

True - but in that case, who of us would survive?

[Amelia]

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And then the great deceiver will persuade men that those who serve God are causing these evils...[

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Awesome, thanks Beryl. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

[Derrell M]

Apocalyptic groups, mind control cults, religions, all have that one thing in common: take what is natural and make it a dire warning from the veangeful deity. Use it to raise hatreds, divisions, tell your adherents that they must crush those that made the god mad enough to do it.

We are now in the part of the hurricane cycle in which we know that over the next ten years there will be many more upper category hurricanes destroying many more homes and lives. I expect that as the apocalyptic type are fully aware of the upcoming hurricanes, they will be predicting terrible hurricanes... predictions that will come true, duhhh. The religious right claiming God's punishment, the religious anti-religions-right claiming its the devil giving the government an excuse to crack down on the "remnant," the far left claiming its because we didn't sing on to the Kyoto Treaty...

If God (or the devil) is sending hurricanes to destroy the sinners, what about me? What about you?

People ask why God lets bad things happen to good people. He doesn't. There are no good people. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." We are all just fortunate that God allows good things to happen to bad people.

God created the laws of nature and here they are at work, so I suppose you could say that God did it because he created the laws that formed it.

Yes, a few rudimentary bits and peices of science were a part of the package with the old shamans, but attributing acts of nature to a veangful God, an angry spirit, or some neighbor casting a spell is NOT one of them. Yes, I view engaging in the superstitious part of what the shamans passed down as superstitious.

[Amelia]

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If God (or the devil) is sending hurricanes to destroy the sinners, what about me? What about you?

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The devil is using pastry to destroy me.

[Derrell M]

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The devil is using pastry to destroy me.

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LOL

[Robert]

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Bravus said:

"

If

Katrina was a punishment of New Orleans for sexual immorality, what have the small towns in western Louisiana and eastern Texas been up to that deserved a smiting?"

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Yes..."if"....

I like what Christ said: "I did not come to condemn the world...."

The Old Testament is more of a history book to me then anything else. So I default mostly to the N.T. There I find what God's wrath means and why it ultimately happens.

In speaking of the Gentile world [those without the Torah] Paul says, "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man."

In a nutshell those without an explicit knowledge of God knew Him through what was made. Yet we find that they turned from God towards corruptible man.

What was the result?

"And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over [gave them up] to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper....We know that God's judgment falls upon those who do such things. Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God?"

It is when men knowingly, persistently reject the God of heaven that trouble comes. The Jews are an excellent NT example. God could have forgiven them for their sin of seeking to murder Christ, but when the Jewish leaders tried hiding the fact that Christ had risen that forever doomed their fate.

In 70 AD we read about the downfall of Jerusalem. And in Matt 23:37,38 we see how God's wrath works.

• O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling.

  “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate....

Did God cause the Romans to butcher the Jews? No! Was God punishing the Jews? Again, no....How could murdering millions of Jews have any redeeming value?

Those who persistently and ultimately rejected the Messiah paid with their lives. Who murdered whom? Right...the Romans murdered the unbelieving Jews. Was it God's fault? No, they reject the God of heaven by rejecting His Son, Jesus Christ.

Did the Jewish believers escape this holocaust? Yes...They heeded the warning: “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Did the Jewish believers get out? Yes...Why? They remained under the wings of the Almighty.

Can we say that a city such as New Orleans has rejected Christ as their righteousness? Well, we might say some elements of that city sure doesn't look to Godly, but to say they have ultimately rejected the gospel of Jesus Christ is presumptuous.

I personally do not believe this is some judgment from God....That's my take and I am sticking to it....

[Dr. Shane]

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"There is no evidence"???? Whoooooeeeeee, man...it takes a lot to convince you.....

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There is no evidence that the recent increase of tropical activity is a direct result of global warming. I didn't say that there is no evidence of global warming. I am a moderate. I accept there is global warming - I am not convinced it is caused by human behavior and even less convinced that it is causeing another active hurricane cycle.

I also accept that God has used natural disasters to punish sinful populations. However I am not convinced that God is using the hurricanes of this active cycle to punish sinful areas.

I am not going to poke fun at left-wingers that are concerned about the environment - but I won't jump on their band wagon either. Nor will I poke fun and belittle right wingers that are concerned about society's sinful ways - but I won't jump on that band wagon either.

[Robert]

Oh yes, one other thing....

• The time is not far distant, when, like the early disciples, we shall be forced to seek a refuge in desolate and solitary places. As the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies was the signal for flight to the Judean Christians, so the assumption of power on the part of our nation [the United States] in the decree enforcing the papal sabbath will be a warning to us.

I believe the issue will not primarily be the Sabbath. The central issue will be the rejection of the gospel - the truth as it is "in Christ". Apparently our leaders will reject the "everlasting gospel" and the warning of the third angel. The evidence of such an act will be the rejection of the Sabbath as understood from Hebrews chapter 4.

In place of it our nation will accept the heresy of the Immaculate Conception [i.e., that Christ did not assume "us"]. Like the unbelieving Jews of old they will reject God's complete salvation in His son Jesus Christ. In its place they will erect a system of works to appease the angry of God that the Harlot has so deceptively painted.

That's when you'll see God’s judgment....That’s when this nation ultimately disconnects her self from righteousness.

• By the decree of enforcing the institution of the Papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness [Jesus]....when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and Republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan, and that the end is near.

Until then I doubt if any hurricane, etc...is some judgment of God. Only when God is fully rejected does He abandon those who persistently disbelieve.

The Sunday law will be the evidence of the rejection of the true gospel. At that time Sunday will become a sign of self-righteousness [the mark of the beast] and the Sabbath will be seen as the day when God finished His COMPLETE work of redemption "in Christ Jesus." That is to say the remnant will be resting the 7th-day Sabbath as an outward sign that they are resting solely in God's final and finished work in Christ Jesus obtained some 2000 years ago.

That will be the issues....

Who said that?

Rob

[Robert]

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However I am not convinced that God is using the hurricanes of this active cycle to punish sinful areas.

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Good...because using this logic we must conclude that "the poor" are the sinful and the "the wealthy" are the good ones....But of course that feeds the myth that "a rich man is a good man blessed of God."

[Neil D]

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There is no evidence that the recent increase of tropical activity is a direct result of global warming.

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Let's see what some one else says.....

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The changing phases of Atlantic hurricane activity are not completely understood; but there appears to be a link to fluctuations in the thermohaline circulation, the global pattern of ocean currents which in western Europe appears as the Gulf Stream.

By causing the sea-surface temperature in the tropical Atlantic to change by even a degree Celsius, these fluctuations can bring major differences to the number of hurricanes generated in a particular year.

For further explainations, check

here

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Seems to me, that Bush is going to allow the building of some nuclear power plants in the LA, Mo, and Tx areas....Perhaps I am mistaken....

But if he does, doesn't that increase the likelihood of the intensity of a hurricane? Since waste water from a Nuclear plant is exclusively heated water, and since a constant source of heated water changes the enviorment down stream/current of the facility, whould it not affect the intensity/numbers of hurricanes in the regine?

Gosh, I hope I don't sound like a "tree hugging enviromental wacko"....[/tic]

[Dr. Shane]

There is disagreement on the issue. That was my point. There is not conclusive evidence either for or against the theory that global warming is either caused by humans or impacting the hurricane cycle.

[lazarus]

What a way to bring revival!

LYNCHBURG, Va. – Evangelist Franklin Graham told an audience that Hurricane Katrina could lead to a spiritual rebirth of what he called a sinful New Orleans.

"There's been satanic worship. There's been sexual perversion," Graham said Monday in an appearance at Liberty University. "God is going to use that storm to bring revival. God has a plan. God has a purpose."

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/katrina/20051004-0650-katrina-graham.html

[Bravus]

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There is disagreement on the issue. That was my point. There is not conclusive evidence either for or against the theory that global warming is either caused by humans or impacting the hurricane cycle.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">Not among the scientists working in the field.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/306/5702/1686

[Neil D]

And the sumation of that report is right here-

This analysis shows that [:"blue"]scientists publishing in the peer-reviewed literature agree [/] with IPCC, the National Academy of Sciences, and the public statements of their professional societies. Politicians, economists, journalists, and[:"red"] others may have the impression of confusion, disagreement, or discord[/] among climate scientists, but [:"red"]that impression is incorrect. [/]

Me thinks that SOMEONE isn't listening.....

[Dr. Shane]

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What a way to bring revival!

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Man's tragedy is God's opportunity.

[Dr. Shane]

Many meteorologics question the impact man is having on global warming. There is by no means a concensus among them despite what some with their heads buried in idealogical sand may claim.

There are two extreames. The Right says human activity is not causing global warming - some even claim global warming isn't happening. The Left says all the educated scientists believe human activity is impacting it and only the stupid, ignorant, fools don't believe it. The middle says there just isn't enough evidence.

Science groups tend to currupt themselves in the same way the intel groups do. rember everyone thought Saddam had WMDS. Opps, they were wrong. Many scientists are on this global warming/human activity band wagon. However there is another school of thought and evidence to support it, the sun is actually causing gloabl warming. There are a number of scientific groups that disagree and more than two ideas floating about.

[Dr. Shane]

A space for climate change sceptics

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As long as science is uncertain about the impacts of greenhouse gas emissions in the Earth’s atmosphere, the public are justified in keeping an open mind, says Benny Peiser.

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Yes, most climatologists are convinced that global warming is mainly due to humans. And yes, anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions undoubtedly have an effect on the global mean temperature. What we don’t know, however, is how much of an effect. More importantly, most researchers who support the theory of anthropogenic global warming are by no means agreed that it will result in large-scale calamity even if CO2 emissions were to double.

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the idea that the sun, more so perhaps than humans, is the principal driver of terrestrial climate has been gaining ground in recent years. In March 2005

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[Halfstep Denise]

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin is calling for an expansion of casino gambling in the hotels as a way to bring in more money to the city.

IF God did bring on Hurricane Katrina to punish New Orleans for the "sins" of the city, now would not be the time to bring on the gambling! That's what I call "asking for it" again! Yikes! I'd get out of the area real quick!

Denise