Katrina- political fallout

[Neil D]

BATON ROUGE, Louisiana The head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency says the government has known for a long time how vulnerable New Orleans would be in a major hurricane like Katrina.

Michael Brown says Louisiana went through a table-top drill a year ago and is doing a good job responding right now. He also tells N-B-C the government is preparing supplies and response teams to move wherever Gulf state governors need them once the weather allows.

Brown praises emergency responders he says are "leaning out of the foxhole," putting their lives in jeopardy to help others in the storm's path.

Recovery could be a long-term thing. Brown says restoring electricity could become a "block to block, house to house" reconstruction effort. And some people may be without power for weeks. Mike Brown, Head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency

[:"blue"]So whatcha think? Is this conservative compassion in action? IOWS based upon what you have seen and know of goverment, is the results of the goverment the natural consequesnces of this situation? [/]

[Dr. Shane]

I think those trying to score political points with this disaster should be ashamed of themselves. Especially those trying to make it a racial issue. I don't even know if the governor in LA is a Republican or Democrat and it doesn't matter as far as I am concerned. I suspect the mayor is a Democrat because of all the blame he tries to place on Bush; but maybe he is Republican, I don't know. I only know LA is a "red" state because Brother Bravus mentioned it.

More blacks are affected. That is true but it doesn't make it a racial issue. Hopefully the political fallout will be that the people of LA and New Orleans will vote in some compentant politicians that know how to prepare for disasters that are predictable.

[Neil D]

So, you agree with Mike Brown that FEMA responded in an appropriate and satisfactory way?

I am asking about Mike Brown and FEMA....

[Naomi]

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Neil D said:

So, you agree with Mike Brown that FEMA responded in an appropriate and satisfactory way?

I am asking about Mike Brown and FEMA....

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Neil,

Certainly I can't answer for Brother Shane, but I don't believe even President Bush agrees that Mike Brown responded appropriately, timely, or satisfactory manner.

Naomi

[Dr. Shane]

The federal government does have egg on its face but look at how it should play out.

Local authorities need to look out for the community. They do this by cordinating with FEMA. If they depend on FEMA to do everything, this is what is going to happen. Imagine, if you will, if the mayor of New Orleans had called the Governor of LA on Sunday (the day before the huricane hit) and the two of them then conference-called President Bush. That is how it should have happened. They knew this was going to happen - and it could have been worse!

I have used my own community as an example here. We have an evacuation plan inplace in case a catagory 3, 4 or 5 storm comes at us. I am not doing the Monday-morning quarterback thing. I am simply telling how my community has planned for this same type of disaster. FEMA is to provide support - not micromanage everything.

The mayor and governor dropped the ball and Mike Brown failed to pick it up. If Mike Brown were running a "tighter ship" he would have seen the incompentance in LA before the storm even hit and realized he was going to have to carry the ball on this disaster. So yes, I agree that Mike Brown hasn't done a great job - but niether has anyone involved with this in government leadership. There is no Giuliani in this story.

Those like Jesse Jackson and Kanye West are trying to make a racial issue out of this and that is so wrong. Making a class issue out of it - poor left behind & wealthy got out - is legetimate but it is not a race issue.

[Bravus]

I agree that the time to talk politics isn't here yet, and it's about saving lives and helping people who have lost everything.

When it becomes time to talk about politics, there are hard questions to ask about (a) chronic underfunding of the Army Corps of Engineers and its flood prevention programs: it's been reduced 44% over the past 2 years, but reports say it has been chronically underfunded basically forever (and yes, Virginia, that includes under Clinton), ( New Orleans' disaster management plan basically did not even mention flooding, despite the very clear threat and © the National Guard is meant to guard the nation, but most of it is in other countries, disabling responses to disasters (presumably including terrorist ones) in the US.

The President has acknowledged that the response was inadequate. Laying blame and finding fixes is for later: now it just needs to become more adequate very quickly.

[Dr. Shane]

I disagree that 1) the National Guard is to defend the nation and 2) so much of it is in Iraq that it cannot fulfill its domestic mission.

I was a member of the National Guard for five years and it is the state militia and does anything the governor wants it too. The National Guard helps in almost every natural disaster. It has also been used for riots. It has been used to keep the peace when police forces have went on strike. It has been used to protect workers during labor disputes. It has provided additional securiety on the border and airports. The National Guard has been used to track down drug runners. So it has multi-purposes and disaster relief is one of the major ones. I was actually surprised to see the President call in regular Army troops.

The President has not activated so much of the National Guard that it has left the states without a militia for domestic missions. When the National Guard is activated it is for 1-year missions. It isn't like they are sent to Iraq for their entire enlistment. Many in New Orleans now have come back from Iraq.

[Bravus]

I accept your knowledge and experience in this field, Shane. I guess then the questions to be asked become about deployment rather than availability: if the National Guard was available, why did it take 4-5 days to deploy it. Still questions that need answering - but I apologise for my unwarranted assumption.

[Dr. Shane]

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if the National Guard was available, why did it take 4-5 days to deploy it[?]

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Same question I have. Was the Governor waiting for the President to do what she had the authority to do herself? Actually some Guard troops were activated before the hurricane to help at the Superdome, so why weren't more activated.

From observing one would think, "Well they must have not realized how bad it was going to be." Just like the insurgency in Iraq. The difference is that we did know how bad it was going to be. We have been talking about it for the past 30 years. If Katrina wouldn't have dropped to a cat 4 and steered just east, New Orleans would have been hit with a cat 5 directly. That is what they were facing.

[Amelia]

Well here in Oregon, NW Medical Teams was already to roll the day after K hit. They were told by the government to "not self deploy" but wait until they were asked to come. They were not asked until yesterday, Friday. It will now take them 4 days to get there. If they had left when the storm was over, they would have been there by now. Our Oregon National Guard wasnt asked to deploy until Friday also. I wonder if we will ever be told, or find out why there was a wait on resources.

[Dr. Shane]

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If the faces you had seen were all WASP, would the responce been any quicker?

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No it wouldn't have and shame on you for suggesting that it would have.

Why don't you ask this if you want to stir up the racial pot? "If the mayor had been white would he have done a better job?"

[Bravus]

Well, as Napoleon (among others) said: "Never ascribe to malice what is adequately explained by incompetence." I don't think we need conspiracy theories, or to bring race into it: whoever was in charge (at all levels, local, state and federal, and in FEMA and DHS too) just wasn't very competent. Far more than a matter of partisan politics, IMO, should be seeking to do it a lot better, and asking why the supposedly massive changes in preparedness since 9/11, including the development of the Department of Homeland Security, haven't better prepared America.

[Amelia]

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If the faces you had seen were all WASP, would the responce been any quicker?

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Honestly, I dont know. We (Americans) have never been tested on this magnitude in modern times. We have nothing to compare our response to. So its easy to say that the government response was slow because of racial and economic inequity . What we can say is that our government was slow, very slow and that is truly sad for everyone. This was our governments greatest time to excell and it failed. If this had been Bushs first term, he wouldnt have made a second.

[Dr. Shane]

Contrast a moment Houston and New Orleans. Although Houston was not on notice for the hurricane, once they realized New Orleans needed help they converted the Astrodome into a shelter within a couple of days. They had beds, food, water, showers, nurses, police and National Guardsmen. They had a shelter ready for 11,000+ people in a very short time.

New Orleans had that much time to prepare for Katrina before she hit and yet they had no beds, food or bottled water in the Superdome. If New Orleans had been as prepared as Houston, the fact that FEMA arrived a few days later would not have had such terrible consequences.

Furthermore, polls done just a few years ago told authorities in New Orleans that 25% of the people there would not evacuate even under mandatory evacuation. With such knowledge one would think they would have done something about it. Like send police and firemen into the streets with load speakers telling everyone to leave. That tactic tends to scare or startle people into leaving that would otherwise stay.

In Mexico (a third world country) the hurricane shelters are stocked with 10 days supply of food and water. There is good reason for that. The infrastructure is so inferior in Mexico that it may take the federal government that long to get into the small communities after a hurricane.

[Dr. Shane]

Of course african americans are going to ask themselves that. And we should do all we can to assure them that isn't the case. It is an issue of class, not race. The wealthy were able to seek shelter and get out of the city. The mayor and the governer failed to get the lower class in shelter or out of the city. Later the federal government failed to get them relief immediately. All levels of government failed these poor people.

[Nicodema]

pedal pedal pedal

pedal faster, you might get somewhere

pedal faster, faster, faster

you're going nowhere.

people are dying in the streets, have been dying for a week

you can't pedal fast enough to spin garments of gold and white

for those without excuse

[Naomi]

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Shane said:

Of course african americans are going to ask themselves that. And we should do all we can to assure them that isn't the case. It is an issue of class, not race. The wealthy were able to seek shelter and get out of the city. The mayor and the governer failed to get the lower class in shelter or out of the city. Later the federal government failed to get them relief immediately. All levels of government failed these poor people.

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Shane,

Often we disagree but on this we can agree. It has been a matter of economics, or as you say, class, not race. When the majority are black then that is what you'll see. Additionally, poor whites have been beat down so much that often they are less visiable, less vocal. All levels of government failed!

Naomi

[Dr. Shane]

It really shows how in efficient government can be. Often times labor unions protect government jobs so that inefficient people not only don't get fired - they get promoted. Indeed FEMA does need a house-cleaning but if they are unionized, that is not likely to happen.

Amazingly Wal-Mart was the first to get supplies into New Orleans after the disaster. Well, perhaps that isn't so amazing. They are part of the private sector. Imagine if FEMA had a no bid contract with Haliburton to get supplies into disaster areas. We would now be talking about Haliburton overcharging and not about how many have died needlessly. That is because Haliburton fires people that don't perform. Or if you don't like Haliburton, ask yourself if you think Donald Trump could have gotten the job done?

[Neil D]

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It really shows how in efficient government can be. Often times labor unions protect government jobs so that inefficient people not only don't get fired - they get promoted. Indeed FEMA does need a house-cleaning but if they are unionized, that is not likely to happen.

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And politics, like the republican's good ol' boy politics, put some very inefficent men in FEMA. Rumors are that Mike Brown, prior to being the head of FEMA, was the head of the Arabian Horse Association, and was asked to leave that position after he ran up debts that nearly bankrupted the association. Tell me, how does his qualifications as the head of a arabian horse association match that of the neccessary requirements of FEMA?

And since when did we ever hear that goverement was 'efficient'? I do so hope that you were jesting when you said that....

[there buster]

The facts are emerging.

The Red Cross was ready on Tuesday.

The Salvation army was ready on Tuesday

FEMA was ready on Tuesday.

The Louisiana state emergency agency denied the Red Cross's request to take food and water to the SuperDome.

The Louisiana Governor refused to activate, or to let the President federalize and activate, the Louisiana National Guard, to help the other relief agencies in.

Mistakes may have happened at every level, but it's already clear that the Louisiana state government was the bottleneck for relief. State and local officials did not have a workable plan, as outlined by the National Hazard Observer and the New Orleans Times-Picayune in 2004.

They did not implement the inadequate plan they had, and they refused to let anyone else in to alleviate their incompetence.

The story has already broken. It will only get more embarrassing for Louisiana's inept Governor Blanco.

[Neil D]

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The federal government does have egg on its face but look at how it should play out.

Local authorities need to look out for the community. They do this by cordinating with FEMA. If they depend on FEMA to do everything, this is what is going to happen. Imagine, if you will, if the mayor of New Orleans had called the Governor of LA on Sunday (the day before the huricane hit) and the two of them then conference-called President Bush. That is how it should have happened. They knew this was going to happen - and it could have been worse!

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[:"blue"]

Friday, 26 August 2005, Governor of Louisiana declares state of emergency

Saturday morning, 27 August 2005, Governor of Louisiana asks President Bush to declare a state of emergency and requests Federal Assistance "to save lives and property". Note, the letter was published on 27 August 2005 on Lexis Nexis but was dated 28 August 2005. Bush received the letter on Saturday and responded on the same day by declaring a State of Emergency. Note, per the NRP, William Lokey was designated as the Federal Coordinating Officer for Federal recovery operations in Louisiana.

Sunday, 28 August 2005, Mayor of New Orleans orders Mandatory Evacuation.

(Note: In Governor Blanco's request on the 27th, there is a specific request for help with evacuation and a specific request for help to "save lives and protect property". )

Monday, 29 August 2005, FEMA Director Brown requests DHS Secretary Chertoff's help in getting 1000 DHS employees ready to deploy to the disaster within 48 hours.

Under the National Response Plane (see p. 93, Figure 11), once the President declares a State of Emergency the Department of Homeland Security is supposed to implement the Plan. Initially, DHS is supposed to deploy an Emergency Response Team to the State to provide expertise in assessing needs and determining appropriate courses of action. Moreover, on p. 52 of the NRP the President may act proactively under the Stafford Act. [/]

And that was the timeline, and who did what....

I don't want to hear anymore of the "if the local officials had asked..." , because under Clinton adminstration, Federal, State and local officials all knew each other, and sat at the same tables when hammering out these policys and who was in charge of what. There was no "you have to ask first and we respond". They worked together, as a unit, not a hierarchy....That is the difference in philosophy in administration...if you like it, vote for it next election...

[there buster]

The Red Cross was ready on Tuesday.

The Salvation army was ready on Tuesday

FEMA was ready on Tuesday.

The Louisiana state emergency agency denied the Red Cross's request to take food and water to the SuperDome.

The Louisiana Governor refused to activate, or to let the President federalize and activate, the Louisiana National Guard, to help the other relief agencies in.

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I don't want to hear anymore. . .

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A rather regal atttitude.

The facts are the facts. Louisiana refused to let the Red Cross in. You might want to note that the Red Cross is not a governmental agency, and thus has to ask.

The pattern is clear. Louisiana refused, Louisiana refused, Louisiana refused. Then they blamed everyone else.

Whether you want to or not, get used to hearing it. The news will be full of it on this issue. The world is unconcerned with your auditory demands.

[aka]

My hurt is for those having put their trust in USA Government help, local State help and close-by human help and been disappointed. Painfully disappointed.

I think of those two films portraying how self-serving in essence national governments can be......

Pentagon Papers

Pentagon Papers2

(25 pages of Google links for Pentagon Papers)

and the film Farenheit 911

(there's over 75 pages of Google links for Farenheit 911)

Turmeric

[Naomi]

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Ed Dickerson said:

The pattern is clear. Louisiana refused, Louisiana refused, Louisiana refused. Then they blamed everyone else.

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I am sure that, in the future there will be lots of time, and "real" information available. It will be a time that everything can be sorted out without "extremist reporting". Perhaps at this time everyone should "lay down their guns, stop shooting," and focus on recovery. And, pray; pray for the citizens, leaders, etc.

Those that I have personally spoken with are saying we don't care, "Just do what can be done to save our city; save our states. Please pray for us"

Naomi

[there buster]

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"real" information . . . . "extremist reporting".

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Naomi, I amended this for you. I apologize if the original post offended you. I'm too used to dealing with Neil's unrelenting attacks. But that is not fair to you.

Instead of "Good caution. Gotta be careful about those Red Cross and Salvation Army types. Never know what they might say." In response to you I would have better written:

My information came from the Red Cross and other relief agencies. Looks real to me, and I don't think it would be accurate to describe them as extremist.