SDA Church in Germany in rebellion against SDA doctrine?

[BobRyan]

What we have in this thread so far is BobRyan's account of Walter Veith's account of the account of one random German

The only people stuck with BobRyan's account of anything - are those who refuse to allow themselves to click on that link - and get the information for themselves.

And in that special cause - they are simply subject to the consequence of their own free will choice in that regard. I cannot be blamed for their choice. I can only be blamed for having some small part in providing that opportunity to be informed.

Obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

If one wants to delve into mistakes within our church there is plenty of material.

Conradi is said to be one of those who ridiculed the message of righteousness by faith at the GC in 1888,

No doubt.

And no doubt there some bad apples in Germany somewhat like what you might find in the SECC here in the U.S.

That does not mean that all the leadership in Germany is stuck at that lack of familiarity with Bible doctrine.

I am simply looking for specific evidence for the positive statements within the leadership in Germany.

Those who take offense at that this simple exercise need to take a more objective view of the request. In a solid conference people normally jump at the chance to promote their affirmation of SDA doctrine.

Normally.

The objective unbiased reader will find it helpful that the issue is reduced to getting the answer to just two questions.

============================

I thus need official clarification on the position of the BRI regarding some of these

matters and would appreciate a frank answer, simply stating yes or no.

1. Does the BRI officially stand by the doctrine that the papacy is the antichrist and

that the pope in Rome is the e

mbodiment of the “man of sin”?

2. Does the BRI officially accept the writings of Ellen White as the revealed will of

God for the remnant and can these writings thus be considered as authorative in issues

of health, science and Bible doctrine?

============================

When Christ asked the Jews "by whose authority did John speak" the answer was "we cannot say" when they found it convenient not to admit to their views in a certain context.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

Apparently you did not read the answer from BRI already given to Veith...

But in case you really are interested in what BRI's position is on your two questions go to their website and have a look - https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org

And to help you on your journey, you can start here:

Regarding your first question - https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/search/apachesolr_search/antichrist

And regarding the second, start here -

Ellen G. White's Ministry in the Seventh-day Adventist Church

[BobRyan]

Apparently you did not read the answer from BRI already given to Veith...

[BobRyan]

Notice that in this case from Johann's own link - the two key questions - not answered are these.

Quote:

I mentioned in my previous a previous communication to you a letter which I sent to the relevant parties at that time (including the BRI, in 2004) to which I received no

answer.

I append those documents again for clarification. There were no steps taken to correct the stand of these brethren and your silence then, together with your public

rebuke of my position now, could be construed as support for their overall position.

I thus need official clarification on the position of the BRI regarding some of these matters and would appreciate a frank answer, simply stating yes or no.

1. Does the BRI officially stand by the doctrine that the papacy is the antichrist and

that the pope in Rome is the e

mbodiment of the “man of sin”?

2. Does the BRI officially accept the writings of Ellen White as the revealed will of

God for the remnant and can these writings thus be considered as authorative in issues

of health, science and Bible doctrine?

And the reason for these questions appears to be that these are the very points where the German SDA leadership was stuck.

The much unexpected answer from the BRI of "we don't need to give an answer" - will be taken by Libs to affirm their views and by conservatives to affirm their view. A wise political move - but not helpful under the circumstances.

[CoAspen]

Will the truth make you free from your fears?

[Tom Wetmore]

Read everything already?

The answer is there. But I suspect the actual answer is less important than simple asking the question to caste doubt and suspicion... Kind of like asking, "So when did you stop beating your wife?" I think Veith knew the truth anyway. This is just a way of diverting the attention away from himself and the trouble he was causing.

[BobRyan]

Read everything already?

The answer is there. But I suspect the actual answer is less important

Pointing to a library of material with the assumption "some place in there -- they surely answered those two questions - surely" is not the compelling response you may have first imagined it to be.

I have seen that method tried before.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

...and I have seen that response before of not being willing to actually take the time to find the answer, but plenty of time to keep arguing about the question. That is because the answer is not the objective or the point.

[BobRyan]

Your accusations noted.

But your answer still missing - as even you have not been able to locate the answer you claim exists. I cannot be blamed for not finding your answer for you when I looked - for you.

[Tom Wetmore]

Not my questions. And truth be told, I am not interested in pursuing the objective of the questions. As for the answers, I don't need to look for them. And I suspect you don't need to either.

[Bravus]

If the claim is 'one random German claims that the SDA church in Germany is in rebellion against SDA doctrine', then I'm quite happy to accept Veith's word for that claim.

On the other hand, if the claim is 'that the SDA church in Germany is in rebellion against SDA doctrine', then a *lot* more evidence needs to be presented.

If the goal is genuine inquiry rather than a smear by 'push polling', surely it's up to you, BobRyan, to actively seek that evidence?

And here, where no Germans post, is most unlikely to be a fertile ground to search.

[CoAspen]

Tis rather sad when peoples only goal is discrediting the church. Fact and truth rarely make a difference, neither do answers. Why, because all is denied as being an answer, because the answer does not agree with the already believed 'truth'. Circular reasoning, used to avoiding the truth when it does not agree with preconceptions.

The same individuals have been at it as long as I have been browsing these forums, thelold fashion word for such activity....being a bore. They only go away when ignored.

[BobRyan]

.

I am simply looking for specific evidence for the positive statements within the leadership in Germany.

Those who take offense at that this simple exercise need to take a more objective view of the request. In a solid conference people normally jump at the chance to promote their affirmation of SDA doctrine.

Normally.

The objective unbiased reader will find it helpful that the issue is reduced to getting the answer to just two questions.

============================

Walter Veith's two questions -

I thus need official clarification on the position of the BRI regarding some of these

matters and would appreciate a frank answer, simply stating yes or no.

1. Does the BRI officially stand by the doctrine that the papacy is the antichrist and

that the pope in Rome is the e

mbodiment of the “man of sin”?

2. Does the BRI officially accept the writings of Ellen White as the revealed will of

God for the remnant and can these writings thus be considered as authorative in issues

of health, science and Bible doctrine?

============================

When Christ asked the Jews "by whose authority did John speak" the answer was "we cannot say" when they found it convenient not to admit to their views in a certain context.

[Gerr]

If we want to really know, we should send 2-3 witnesses to Germany to assess the issue and come back and report to us.

[olger]

I'll see if I can fit it into my schedule ...ASI comin up `n all.

[olger]

Or we can send someone to climb the cathedral in Munich with a megaphone "All right! All you krauts straighten up!" Think that would help?

`g (german)

[Gerr]

Can we trust your eyes, ears, and megaphone? :)

[CoAspen]

Ya know, if people want answers, they can find them, easily! But it becomes rather obvious that the issue is not answers but constantly to be an annoying voice. That seems to be the goal of a few people.

Rather sad.

[Gerr]

Ya know, if people want answers, they can find them, easily! But it becomes rather obvious that the issue is not answers but constantly to be an annoying voice. That seems to be the goal of a few people.

Rather sad.

Can you provide some trustworthy sources?

[olger]

Can we trust your eyes, ears, and megaphone?

The megaphone might not clear the beloved TSA screening. As to trust - that's your call.

`G

[M. T. Cross]

Pointing to a library of material with the assumption "some place in there -- they surely answered those two questions - surely" is not the compelling response you may have first imagined it to be.

I have seen that method tried before.

in Christ,

Bob

Kinda like when you say the answers to spiritual questions can be found in a certain piece of literature?

[EmptyTomb]

If you can,t get a direct answer to a question then it is all

B and S. Or at best just gossip with no substance.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

But for us to spend so much of our time dwelling on Satan's weapons takes away from our hope and fills us instead with distrust of our brethren, our church leaders, leadership in general, and maybe even our trust that God has everything in control.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, but rather than find fault with the messenger who does spend what seems to be an inordinate time on the negative, I would see more wisdom in searching in the Word for verification to see whether those things are true and allow the Bible to give the balance that is needed, in order to assure ourselves whether we are basing our conclusions on the sand or on the Rock. Otherwise we may be setting ourselves up in opposition to a person who has felt the calling to be a watchman on the wall for just such a time as this.

"“Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman for Israel. Whenever you receive a message from me, warn people immediately." Ezekiel 3:17 NLT

"But if the watchman sees the enemy coming and doesn’t sound the alarm to warn the people, he is responsible for their captivity. They will die in their sins, but I will hold the watchman responsible for their deaths.’"

Ezekiel 33:6 NLT

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

...especially someone like Veith who has a dodgy reputation already.

Jesus had a dodgy reputation and suffered many ad hominem comments.

Why? Because He had the truth, and the organized church found this intolerable.

"Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also."John 15:20 NKJV

God cares!