olger Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 You have a different crystal ball than i do. the fact is that churches that have ordained women leaders are now facing the homosexual issue True, Mike. A person would have to be intentionally oblivious (and astigmatic) to miss where this is leading !!!!!! Rest in the Word, g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 12, 2013 Members Share Posted July 12, 2013 Your have a different crystal ball than i do. the fact is that churches that have ordained women leaders are now facing the homosexual issue Could you name those churches? There have been OW pastors for only the past few years, but we've had the homosexual issue for a lot longer. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hair Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Aussiemike...here it comes... Can you prove it?, Can you name those churches? You're just making that up to scare people. If you name a church, I will say you're wrong because I know about that church and it isn't so. If you give a source, I will discredit it, and if you provide any scripture I will say that you are interpreting it incorrectly. You can not win! Sad thing is; if they are wrong, after they approve WO it will be too late then. We will not be able to go back. Why take that chance? Women are already doing a great work in the church now, without the title. Where are all of these women screaming, "Ordain me or else!" anyway? From what I see, its just another attempt to follow the daughters of Babylon. Why did we not consider this years ago?... because years ago the protestant churches were not doing it; that's why, that's the truth. Now, to that they will say, "Are you saying that there is no more truth?" "Are you saying that we can't have new light?" etc. You can not win! You can not stop it! Give up! If by some miracle it is not approved, then they will raise the same issue again as soon as they can, and we will be making another decision on the same matter again, and this will continue for eternity or until they finally get their way. You can't beat them, might as well join them. Stop resisting. Go women! Show them what you got! Who needs a stinking man! Come aussiemike and olger, come to the dark side. Heavy breathing...I am your father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I'm not AussieMike, but I can provide this information in answer to your question. 1) The Episcopal Church. 2) Presbyterian Church - USA 3) Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. 4) United Methodist Church. 5) American Baptist Churches (not Southern Baptist Convention). 6) Christian Reformed Church. 7) Fuller Seminary Have a blessed Sabbath! `G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enabled Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 This chapter comes to mind when thinking of current events. Note the inspired view of things today. Quote: Isa 3:9 The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves. Isa 3:10 Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings. Quote: Isa 3:11 Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him. Isa 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. Isa 3:13 The LORD standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people. Quote: Isa 3:16 Moreover the LORD saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: Isa 3:17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the LORD will discover their secret parts. Isa 3:18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon, I believe a lot of people fall for the straw man of equality, the question is really about biblical authority and its giver. His ways are not our ways, Christ though equal with his Father in Divine attributes still chooses to subject himself to the Father. The Father is the source of life, though he gave it to Christ to have it in himself who in turn gives it to us that we may offer it to others. It is the Fathers choice and not ours as to what constitutes Divine order and so it is with Christ who appointed the Man as the head as He (that is Christ) is head of the Church and thus Christ is the example that interprets the words of Paul. Paul received his words directly from Christ as Christ received his from his Father. Happy Sabbath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Amen, and Happy Sabbath to you as well! Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 I'm not AussieMike, but I can provide this information in answer to your question. 1) The Episcopal Church. 2) Presbyterian Church - USA 3) Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. 4) United Methodist Church. 5) American Baptist Churches (not Southern Baptist Convention). 6) Christian Reformed Church. 7) Fuller Seminary Your problem olger: Tom Wetmore has firmly denied that women's ordination foreshadows homosexual ministers as a trend for denominations. No one called Tom's bluff on this claim (last year). But an interested student of the Bible (& SOP) could see this was a prophecy awaiting fulfillment. Romans 1 is plain enough when set in Bible context. Wouldn't a church lawyer know the facts on these things? Don't they have access to all that ecumenical stuff? How could Tom be wrong on such a fundamental issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted July 13, 2013 Members Share Posted July 13, 2013 George Burns smoked cigars for over 80 years. He lived to be over 100. ....smoking cigars will give you long life. Everyone who drinks water will eventually die. ....water causes death. A light bulb burned out when the light switch was turned on. ....turning on a light switch causes light bulbs to burn out. A TV set is out of focus... someone slaps the side of it and the picture comes back into focus. ....hitting a TV will repair malfunctions. A new car is driven on a newly paved road and gets a flat tire. ....driving on newly paved roads will cause a flat tire. A teenager eats an apple one evening. Next morning he has a pimple. ....eating apples causes pimples. Someone is knitting and a sonic boom is heard. ....knitting causes sonic booms. Someone is vacuuming the carpet and the phone rings. ....vacuuming causes the phone to ring. A denomination ordains men...and then also ordains a homosexual. ....all denominations who ordain men will ordain homosexuals. CLASSIC Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 The United Church of Canada is the country's largest Protestant denomination, and was formed in 1925 by a union of Canada's Methodist, Congregational and a majority of Presbyterian (Church of Scotland) churches. Among Canadian christian churches, only the Roman Catholic Church is larger. The United Church of Canada: * 1936 - Ordained first woman minister Rev. Lydia Emelie Gruchy * 1992 - Ordained first openly gay man Rev. Tim Stevenson * 2012 - Elected first openly gay Church Moderator ('GC President') Rev. Gary Patterson These last two men have been partners for thirty years and are now legally married: http://www.straight.com/life/coun-tim-st...ted-church-post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 13, 2013 Administrators Share Posted July 13, 2013 Gordon, apparently you did not understand the point Pam just made. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Most people attend church on Sunday Sunday is the day for worshiping in church Many churches have gay leaders The SDA church will have gay leaders etc...etc...etc (gotta keep your dragons happy) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hair Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Well guys, Olger, Aussiemike, Enabled, I appreciate your spirit but I tried to tell ya. Just like in the Bible, the majority is always right. God always sides with the largest group all through scripture. Wide is the gate to Heaven and narrow is the way to Hell... or something like that... You can not win! Sunday churches started ordaining women ... SDA will start ordaining women I shot a dog in the head and it died ... shooting a dog in the head will kill it I left my windows down in the rain and it got wet inside ... leaving your windows down in rain will get your car wet inside You tried to convince SDA's not to ordain women and they all ganged up on you with a bunch of rhetoric ... the next time you try to convince them of the same it will happen again See these things don't happen. Their argument is concrete proof! Give-up now. That way when they do approve WO you wont have to eat so much crow. I feel so sorry for pastors like Doug Bachelor and Stephen Bohr who are going to have to do a 180 and preach that it is Biblically acceptable after it gets approved. We'll be ok, but those guys have a job to keep, and they are so public, and if the church says "yes" they better say "yes". On second thought they'll probably just replace them with two women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 13, 2013 Moderators Share Posted July 13, 2013 Correction: If you accept that Paul's counsels are applicable today then you have to accept that EGW's ministry is NOT of God. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Correction: Originally Posted By: lazarus If you accept that Paul's counsels are applicable today then you have to accept that EGW's ministry is NOT of God. Why? Paul did not address the ministry of prophetesses, so far as I am aware. A prophet or prophetess is a role to which God alone calls one. This is why there is never a list, anywhere in inspiration, of the qualifications to become a prophet. One does not choose this role. God chooses it for him or her. Having been chosen, a prophet is obliged to serve in whatever capacity God requires. Prophets often have not desired their jobs. They know how hard it is to be a prophet. Some have died ignominious deaths. Many have been scoffed at and ridiculed. Many have been criticized for their work. Many have been rejected, and told they were not prophets or prophetesses. Many have had to do strange things, involving great levels of discomfort. A prophet is a servant of the Lord, and must simply do whatever God commands. But God has established "gospel order" for the rest of us who are not called to be prophets. There are criteria, or qualifications, for positions in the church. A man should not be a deaconess. That is a lady's position. Each one has a proper place, and Paul speaks of this order. Paul never addresses what a prophet can or cannot do, nor does he specify who should be or not be a prophet. Only God has this authority. Blessings, Green Cochoa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 13, 2013 Moderators Share Posted July 13, 2013 I certainly believe that we as church will have to directly confront the issue of homosexual pastors. EVERY church has to confront the issue in today's society. There are homosexuals in every church and there will be some who feel called to leadership.. Even the churches that are the most vehemently against WO are being challenged by the issue. I can see, in the future, an ordained SDA pastor coming out and saying he is gay. If his local church supports him and he says he's celibate then it would be a challenging scenario for the church . I really don't see a union voting to ordain openly gay pastors unless someone discovers a hidden EGW manuscript. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 13, 2013 Members Share Posted July 13, 2013 I certainly believe that we as church will have to directly confront the issue of homosexual pastors. EVERY church has to confront the issue in today's society. There are homosexuals in every church and there will be some who feel called to leadership.. Even the churches that are the most vehemently against WO are being challenged by the issue. I can see, in the future, an ordained SDA pastor coming out and saying he is gay. If his local church supports him and he says he's celibate then it would be a challenging scenario for the church . I really don't see a union voting to ordain openly gay pastors unless someone discovers a hidden EGW manuscript. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 The United Church of Canada is the country's largest Protestant denomination, and was formed in 1925 by a union of Canada's Methodist, Congregational and a majority of Presbyterian (Church of Scotland) churches. Among Canadian christian churches, only the Roman Catholic Church is larger. The United Church of Canada: * 1936 - Ordained first woman minister Rev. Lydia Emelie Gruchy * 1992 - Ordained first openly gay man Rev. Tim Stevenson * 2012 - Elected first openly gay Church Moderator ('GC President') Rev. Gary Patterson These last two men have been partners for thirty years and are now legally married: http://www.straight.com/life/coun-tim-st...ted-church-post I forgot to add the Evangelical Lutheran Church to the list. As to the Church of Canada, notice that the time spread between their first ordained woman minister and first ordained gay guy is 56 years. That's a long time. But, how long was it until they allowed practicing homosexuals to have church membership? That appears to have happened in the early 1970's. If it took the Church of Canada thirty-six years to move from WO to gay membership, how much less time can we expect now in this deeply immoral culture of ours? Add to that, the subconscious echo of this prophecy "The final movements will be - rapid ones." What is the problem with homosexuality? Aside from its condemnation in Scripture and biological depravity there is, I believe, a deeper problem. The core problem is people assigning immutability to sinful urges and behavior. This white flag of surrender yields the ground of sanctification to Babylon. Make no mistake, this has the potential to keep people out of the the New Jerusalem (to be lost). rest in His Word, g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarrtx Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Hair I like your candor you made me laugh. Happy Sabbath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enabled Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Quote: Well guys, Olger, Aussiemike, Enabled, I appreciate your spirit but I tried to tell ya. So did Able,Noah,Abraham,Issac,Jacob,Joesph,David,and all did so in the spirit of Christ: Quote: Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. If to be in Christ and full of his spirit is to lose the numbers game then again I will side with the Son of the most High as those listed above did and will offer myself a sacrifice a sweet smelling savor through him that I might be pleasing to the most High. Again Happy Sabbath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 13, 2013 Administrators Share Posted July 13, 2013 Ger you also forgot two very important categories. The many churches that ordain women that do not ordain homosexual clergy, several of which have been ordaining women much longer than any you have listed. And you have also forgotten the category of churches that do not ordain women, but that do ordain homosexual men. With those two categories, the logic of your homophobic fear-mongering falls apart. So what else are you overlooking in your zeal to put down this idea of WO? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted July 13, 2013 Author Moderators Share Posted July 13, 2013 Quote: I can see, in the future, an ordained SDA pastor coming out and saying he is gay. If his local church supports him and he says he's celibate then it would be a challenging scenario for the church . I really don't see a union voting to ordain openly gay pastors unless someone discovers a hidden EGW manuscript. We ordain heterosexual people who are celibate. There is no documentation that supports the idea that one can change their sexual preference. One does not chose their sexual orientation. If one is open in regard to their homosexual sexual orientation, but celibate, should that bar them from ordination? Should a single, celibate, open heterosexual be bared from ordination? Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon1 Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Make no mistake, this has the potential to keep people out of the the New Jerusalem (to be lost). EGW vision in 1 Testimonies 457: "I saw that God's order has been reversed... "Those who feel called out to join the movement in favor of woman's rights and the so-called dress reform might as well sever all connection with the third angel's message." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 13, 2013 Members Share Posted July 13, 2013 Originally Posted By: olger Make no mistake, this has the potential to keep people out of the the New Jerusalem (to be lost). EGW vision in 1 Testimonies 457: "I saw that God's order has been reversed... "Those who feel called out to join the movement in favor of woman's rights and the so-called dress reform might as well sever all connection with the third angel's message." Why not include the parts you left out?? So others have a more general idea what your driving at? Otherwise I forsee many, "out of context" statements!! Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hair Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 You are now entering the twilight zone do do do do do do do do www.sgamovie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 13, 2013 Members Share Posted July 13, 2013 You are now entering the twilight zone do do do do do do do do www.sgamovie.com Not sure of your reply to Gregory? Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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