What would Jesus have to say about WO?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Where the question comes in is more along the lines of "what ministry is appropriate for women, and what ministry is for men?" There are natural roles for each.

So...what are those natural roles?

Which, if any, of those natural roles would make it "inappropriate" for men or women to heed the call of God to ministry?

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

You appear to have only read it rather superficially and do not seem to understand the scholarship involved. Check the footnotes carefully. And you seem to ignore most of the points made regarding prostatis and the fact that in almost every instance where diakonos is use regard an man in the NT it is translated as minister or deacon and not merely servant. Oh yes, it literally means "servant". But what about the context and the usage in context of role within the NT church?

If Phoebe was merely a servant/helper why would Paul tell the Roman believers to follow her instructions, rather than the other way around?

I think it seems that some simply refuse to accept the truth of the matter, no matter how authoritative the source.

Tom,

What is an "authoritative source" to you? To me it would be anything from the Spirit of Prophecy (which includes EGW and the Bible). I do not personally give much credence to human opinions or sources. Only inspired sources give us reliable truth.

I could see a list of so-called scholarly sources a mile long in the footnotes, and it would mean less to me than one single passage of scripture. I do not regard even the Adventist commentators who edited the Adventist Bible Commentaries, with the exception of Mrs. White. I have discovered many errors in the Adventist commentaries--how shall I then regard those pertaining to other denominations who understand still less of the truth?

We are to follow scripture, and only scripture. The scriptures are to be our sole rule of faith and doctrine. (I include Mrs. White in my definition of "scripture," though I believe our major doctrines should all be supportable from the Bible alone to anyone outside of our church who has not learned to esteem her writings. I realize this is a debatable point, and I'm not trying to change the topic for this thread, I'm only qualifying my own meaning in my usage of these terms. Basically, to me, "spirit of prophecy" equals "scripture" per the Bible's own definitions.)

I am open to using the scripture to interpret itself. I am highly cautious of receiving interpretations from uninspired sources.

You started this thread with the question of how Jesus would view the issue of women's ordination. Though they are the "best of Pharisees" for their learning and scholarship, I would ask at this point, how would Jesus regard all of those "scholars" that are quoted in the footnotes?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

What I find hard to understand is that you cannot see that is this fundamentally Scriptural authority. The words in question are the precise Greek words used by Paul in writing the book of Romans. The issue of correct translation and meaning of thos words for us modern day English speaking individuals is dependent on the expertise of those NT language scholars, including Ones like the author of the article. To say you only rely on Scripture is to ignore the simple fact of your own reliance on such individuals who translated the original Greek into English so you could even read a single word of it.

We are not talking about wlld unsubstantiated conjecture about what someone without knowledge makes outside of the context of Scripture. This is Scripture.

[M. T. Cross]

The Bible is clear that we are to put our trust in God, and not in man.

Which oddly enough was written by men........

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I include Mrs. White in my definition of "scripture,"...

O.o wow...I don't think I've ever seen anyone admit such a thing before, though I've heard of people who have elevated EGW to that height..

amazing..

[Green Cochoa]

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

The Bible is clear that we are to put our trust in God, and not in man.

Which oddly enough was written by men........

[debbym]

Quote:

According to the Bible, "scripture is given by inspiration of God." People didn't write it on their own, but at God's inspiration. If one accepts that Mrs. White was inspired, then one realizes she wrote God's messages to us in quite the same manner as did the disciples, Paul, and others. Some of the Bible writers had visions. So did she. Some of them quoted words of angels. So does she. The very same Holy Spirit inspired the Bible as inspired her writings.

Jesus said you search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life, but you do not come to me.

we are not to make a God of the scriptures, they are records that continue to speak, that which testifies of Jesus. so we can come to Jesus personally in real time.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever, so those records will ever be alive and present Him.

when God speaks to me, i am accountable to what i hear.

Do i say yes or no to God.

God speaks to me in nature, in providence, in the bible, in the still small voice, and through the witness of others who testify of Him.

anytime i hear the voice of God i either listen, soften, draw near, or i resist, disagree, and harden and pull away.

every encounter with God whether it is through scripture, nature, providence, God speaking in my heart, or through messages from him through others reacts on me, and i either become more open to God or more closed.

i feel green cochoa is saying that an encounter with God is experienced for them in scripture and in eg white, they do both testify of Jesus. This does not mean one is canon and the other is not. The witness in the scripture came about from people experiencing God, becoming inspired and making a record of it. this cannot be too heard as almost every page of eg white has scriptural references. i cannot read eg white without reading lots of scripture. ever try to screen the bible out of eg whites writing?

other experiences with God can be compared to the experiences and records in Scripture, to know it is indeed the same source of inspiration.

[Neil D]

i feel green cochoa is saying that an encounter with God is experienced for them in scripture and in eg white, they do both testify of Jesus. This does not mean one is canon and the other is not. The witness in the scripture came about from people experiencing God, becoming inspired and making a record of it. this cannot be too heard as almost every page of eg white has scriptural references. i cannot read eg white without reading lots of scripture. ever try to screen the bible out of eg whites writing?

other experiences with God can be compared to the experiences and records in Scripture, to know it is indeed the same source of inspiration.

So when scholars use their skills to clarify a language, and open new meanings behind ancient dead languages, is that inspiration?

If one clings to the old meanings and refuses the new insights,, does this rejection harm his relationship with God?

My personal opnion is that it impairs the relationship terribly.....

[Neil D]

There is no question that women are important. There is also no question as to the need of women in ministry. Where the question comes in is more along the lines of "what ministry is appropriate for women, and what ministry is for men?" There are natural roles for each. God has given each person a work to do for Him. A man cannot do everything that a woman can do and vice versa. Both are needed and important.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

I agree with most of what you are saying...but the above implys that women have a lesser value in ministry....and it kinda indicates that you believe in that concept of headship...I'm sorry if I misinterpret you in this area....I reject that non-biblical myth/concept.....

While not in the bible, I do believe that a woman is equal in every way a man is, with the additional value of child bearing....in essence, that makes her of MORE value....Now, when you say that a man cannot do everything a woman can do, I do take exception to that..Except for child bearing and related physical activities, ie nursing, just what sort of things are men NOT able to do??

I mentioned this very subject many years ago on this forum, stating that men could not nurture as well as women, and was promply told by women how their pastors and sons, and husbands were very nurturing....and their experience [as experts in the field of nurturing] countered mine !

Women have taken every job that men could do, and shown that they can do the same job as a smaller man can do....So, your statement that men can't do some things as well as women can can only apply to sexist ideals...

....and in religious terms, can only mean that you believe in the headship concept....a very sexist theology....

Perhaps I am wrong...I might have overstated something...please correct me if I have misinterpreted you....

[Green Cochoa]

Neil,

Perhaps men can be very nurturing. But they should not be so nurturing to other women. Let them nurture men. It is a woman's place to nurture women. This is, in fact, the only mention in Mrs. White's writings of deaconesses in addressing this very thing.

You are not to set such an example that women will feel at liberty to tell you the grievances of their home life, and to draw upon your sympathies. When a woman comes to you with her troubles, tell her plainly to go to her sisters, to tell her troubles to the deaconesses of the church. Tell her that she is out of place in opening her troubles to any man, for men are easily beguiled and tempted. Tell the one who has thrown her case upon you that God has not placed this burden upon any man. You are not wise to take these burdens upon yourself. It is not your appointed work. {21MR 97.6}

[olger]

I agree with the preceding post. The Bible and spirit of prophecy are clear that the roles of men and women are complimentary - not interchangeable.

That means different, for those of you in La Sierra.

Blessings,

`G

[8thdaypriest]

I've been following this discussion but not saying much.

Can I recommend a book: "What Paul REALLY Said About Women" by John Temple Bristow

It's a small book - won't take much time, but I found it very helpful.

We have to put ourselves back in 33AD. Women didn't have birth control, and wouldn't for 1500 years plus.

Their primary responsibility was child care and teaching. There were no public schools. No day-care.

And care of their young children IS still the primary responsibility of the mother. Even if I agreed with those who want to "ordain" women, I would say they must wait until their children are over 12yrs.

RE: Priesthood being male.

Women had a monthly "uncleanness." They could NOT enter the Temple court during those days.

(Of course a man became unclean for the rest of the day, if he had a seminal emission. That is why the High Priest stayed up all night, before his duties on Yom Kippur - to make SURE he stayed "clean.")

NOW:

It is NOT men who "ordain" - it is Christ Himself.

If Christ calls a woman to teach - who are MEN to say "You can't do that."

I LOVE the fact that Jesus called a WOMAN to teach the Adventists.

DANGER

I think there is a real danger in male "pastors" counseling females.

Too many affairs have started this way.

I think women should counsel women. I have a master's degree in counseling by the way.

I was a nurse anesthetist for 34 years. I went to a local university to get the counseling degree when I was teaching the youth, and young girls started coming to tell me that they were being abused.

I would like to see women as co-pastors, or church co-counselors. Let the pastor concentrate on administration, bill paying, etc.

THE DIFFERENCE:

God took a piece of Adam to create Eve. That means He cloned Adam, and just tweaked the DNA to xx instead of xy. So it is RIDICULOUS to say that males are more intelligent than females. The estrogen or testosterone effects the brain -mainly how the two hemispheres communicate, but it doesn't decrease the number of connections.

Let me recommend another book:

"The Friendships of Women" by Dee Brestin. Only the women need read it. The men won't get it (They don't have those "connections.") lol

MY HOME:

My husband is my HEAD. He is the representative of this unit before God. I absolutely LOVE IT when my husband prays for me. A man that would get down on his knees to wash my feet, who puts my needs BEFORE his own without fail - he can be my HEAD any time. My husband is the MOST unselfish man I know. I was converted by in 1981, after being VERY pagan. My husband thought I was going crazy. She's turning into a Jesus freak!!!!!!!

The LORD told me (audibly by the way) "He will be the brightest star in your crown."

He was baptized 8 years later and has remained steadfast.

It was my husband who said to me, "You have a gift for teaching. We should try to put this out on the internet."

He is the one who has encouraged me to teach.

www.prophecyviewpoint.com

Shalom

Rachel

[CoAspen]

Quote:

we are not to make a God of the scriptures, they are records that continue to speak, that which testifies of Jesus. so we can come to Jesus personally in real time.

Excellent!

[CoAspen]

Registered: 06/30/02

Posts: 6144

Loc: Colorado Quote:

Where the question comes in is more along the lines of "what ministry is appropriate for women, and what ministry is for men?" There are natural roles for each.

So...what are those natural roles?

Which, if any, of those natural roles would make it "inappropriate" for men or women to heed the call of God to ministry?

Waiting......waiting....

[8thdaypriest]

My sister is a physician radiologist who specializes in mammography.

She spent 16 years getting that training BEFORE having kids. Our mother lived with them for 12 years, as the main caregiver to the kids - all now post college by the way.

My sister has developed new techniques for spotting and lazing early tumors. She has presented research papers in Vienna and other world centers. I am VERY proud of her.

Sooooo - you tell me - was that an "appropriate role" for a woman?

Is it appropriate for a woman to be a judge, a chemist, an architect, a surgeon ?

But all of these are leadership roles.

So long as the children are cared for by someone with whom they have a close continuing relationship, I am ok with ANY role. No short term nannies, or day-care please. If you cannot nurture kids - then don't have them.

I personally do NOT feel "called" to be a pastor. My gift - so I'm told, is teaching - adults.

If a woman is intelligent and mature, then I think it entirely appropriate that she serve as an ELDER at her church. I'm turning 65 on Sunday. I think the term ELDER fits.

I have attended churches where the women only prepared the food, provided the music, taught children or other women, or cleaned the church. They did not teach mixed classes of adults. I didn't stay there long.

Shalom

Rachel

[LifeHiscost]

Well spoken.

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."Galatians 3:27-29 NKJV

A disciple is a disciple is a disciple is a disciple is.....ad-infinitum.

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

#653662 - Yesterday at 17:19

Great testimony. Any man should be so fortunate.

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I do believe that a woman is equal in every way a man is

And she has the added distinction of being first in paying more attention to the serpent than to the Creator. As I understand the scriptures, that is the reason God found it necessary to make a distinction between man and woman. Both men and women suffer distinct differences in their penalty for failure to comply to God's instruction.

I'm sure God spoke what would happen as a result of their transgression. Whether He was just stating the natural result or stating the result that had to be, doesn't seem to be plainly obvious.

"Then he said to the woman,

“I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy,

and in pain you will give birth.

And you will desire to control your husband,

but he will rule over you.”

And to the man he said,

“Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree

whose fruit I commanded you not to eat,

the ground is cursed because of you.

All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.

It will grow thorns and thistles for you,

though you will eat of its grains.

By the sweat of your brow

will you have food to eat

until you return to the ground

from which you were made.

For you were made from dust,

and to dust you will return.”"Gen 3:15-19 NLT

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Jesus never said that He was God

"“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. "John 14:7-10 NKJV

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."Matthew 28:18 NASB

Are you suggesting the Father would entrust all authority be given Jesus as a lessor Individual?

"You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.

Though he was God,

he did not think of equality with God

as something to cling to.

Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;

he took the humble position of a slave

and was born as a human being.

When he appeared in human form,"Philippians 2:5-7 NLT

God cares!

[Green Cochoa]

Well spoken.

"For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."Galatians 3:27-29 NKJV

A disciple is a disciple is a disciple is a disciple is.....ad-infinitum.

God cares!

[olger]

Equal in intrinsic value does not mean equal roles, according to the Good Book.

[Tom Wetmore]

Consider it equal standing and equal opportunity. The distinctions listed in Galatians 3 are not relevant distinctions in Christ. The church is the body of Christ. To be in Christ is to be a part of that body and in the church. It is not a stretch to read that described oneness without distinctions as being one in the Church.

You are correct that not everyone has the same gifts. Not all men are gifted to be pastors, teachers or leaders of the church. Neither are all women. But to those who are able and called, being male or female is not to be a factor to restrict them from exercising the gifts they have been given. Just as you have said it is obvious that not everyone has the same gifts, it is also obvious that there are women that do have the gifts we associate with pastoral ministry.

[Neil D]

Neil,

There is no question that women are important. There is also no question as to the need of women in ministry. Where the question comes in is more along the lines of "what ministry is appropriate for women, and what ministry is for men?" There are natural roles for each. God has given each person a work to do for Him. A man cannot do everything that a woman can do and vice versa. Both are needed and important.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

This is an over blown statement....

You justify your comments from [ I believe]the Testemonies...which as I understand are nothing more than the principles of God's word [specifically principles from the Mount of Blessings and the Golden Rule and other places]applied to specific circumstances...which as I understand did not have to be written for the general church anyways if they had applied the biblical principles in their own lives...

The question is about ordination-do women deserve it?

You admit that God calls women to various God ordained jobs...but you will not allow a women to be ordained....

Sounds sexist...in the most vile of valued reasoning...that is religious garb....

Thank you for showing your true colors...

[Neil D]

Quote:

Jesus never said that He was God

"“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. "John 14:7-10 NKJV

"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."Matthew 28:18 NASB

Are you suggesting the Father would entrust all authority be given Jesus as a lessor Individual?

"You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.

Though he was God,

he did not think of equality with God

as something to cling to.

Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;

he took the humble position of a slave

and was born as a human being.

When he appeared in human form,"Philippians 2:5-7 NLT

God cares!

Um....where does Jesus say "I am God." ???

We attribute these statements as an equivalency to the plain "I am God"...but He doesn't literally say that.... These statements are used that way, for sure....But the question is begged, "Why didn't jesus say 'I am God', if He wasn't trying to say something else?"....

Your answer is in the form of a question- "Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among Gods?"....

[Neil D]

And she has the added distinction of being first in paying more attention to the serpent than to the Creator. As I understand the scriptures, that is the reason God found it necessary to make a distinction between man and woman. Both men and women suffer distinct differences in their penalty for failure to comply to God's instruction.

I'm sure God spoke what would happen as a result of their transgression. Whether He was just stating the natural result or stating the result that had to be, doesn't seem to be plainly obvious.

you and I know that someone fell from the exalted position the Creator placed mankind...Who fell first doesn't matter, since both were created equally....who received the worst punishment is an implication that God delights in punishment and out of character of the God of Love...Remember, these 'punishments' were for our good...

So, again, your arguments are not adding to the worth of the woman, only denigrating her...that is, an attempt to keep her under the thumbs of those who wish to control her....

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I include Mrs. White in my definition of "scripture,"...

That's downright scary. So Green, in your opinion, Mrs. White's writings carry the same authority as Ezekiel or Isaiah or Paul?

Mormons believe that the writings of Joseph Smith have the authority of scripture as well. Small wonder that some people consider Adventism a "sect".