JoeMo Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Quote: Um....where does Jesus say "I am God." ??? Does John 8: 56-58 count? Quote: Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Isn't "I am" in this context equivalent to "God" Ref. Ex 3:14: Quote: And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Quote: Um....where does Jesus say "I am God." ??? Does John 8: 56-58 count? Quote: Isn't "I am" in this context equivalent to "God" Ref. Ex 3:14: Technically, nope.... I agree with the implications....but to say "I am..." leaves out the object of a sentence..."I am ...what?" is also implied....which leaves a question for us to answer...No, all the texts in the bible regarding the subject of Jesus answering Who He is, is in reference to His Character....And Jesus had the same Characteristics as God in human form and minus the divinity... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 If Jesus isn't God, why did He allow people to worship Him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 17, 2013 Members Share Posted July 17, 2013 Quote: I include Mrs. White in my definition of "scripture,"... That's downright scary. So Green, in your opinion, Mrs. White's writings carry the same authority as Ezekiel or Isaiah or Paul? Mormons believe that the writings of Joseph Smith have the authority of scripture as well. Small wonder that some people consider Adventism a "sect". The difference is, and I've said it before, EGW points us to the Bible, Joseph Smith does not. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 17, 2013 Members Share Posted July 17, 2013 Here is how the CJB puts SH'MOT (Exodus) 3:13 Moshe said to God, "Look, when I appear before the people of Isra'el and say to them, 'The God of your ancestors has sent me to you'; and they ask me, 'What is his name?' what am I to tell them?" 14 God said to Moshe, "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [i am/will be what I am/will be]," and added, "Here is what to say to the people of Isra'el: 'Ehyeh [i Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.'" 15 God said further to Moshe, "Say this to the people of Isra'el: 'Yud-Heh-Vav-Heh [ADONAI], the God of your fathers, the God of Avraham, the God of Yitz'chak and the God of Ya'akov, has sent me to you.'This is my name forever; this is how I am to be remembered generation after generation. To me it says that Jesus is calling himself? __? Who does this passage say Moses is talking to? "God" no doubt, so it also looks like Jesus is saying that this "I AM" was? In my opinion Jesus is telling them that he is this "I AM" that was talking with Moses. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Quote: And she has the added distinction of being first in paying more attention to the serpent than to the Creator. As I understand the scriptures, that is the reason God found it necessary to make a distinction between man and woman. You guys crack me up! The punishment is worse if you are deceived(EVE), but less if you willfully do it(Adam). Really...that is the way you believe God operates? Help me to understand this so I can make sure others see my God as superior to theirs!! Quote: Both men and women suffer distinct differences in their penalty for failure to comply to God's instruction. A statement used by WO opponents as a reason for not allowing. Never mind what happened in the Garden has nothing to do with the calling of God or WO. Apples and oranges.....all the way! The statement also perpetuates the notion of levels of sin or results. By the way, Eve was called to bear children in pain and Adam was to till the fields with his hands and the sweat of his brow. Again no WO issues there, as God never called for ordination of any kind, only men came up with the idea. This issue continues to go around and around with repetitious postings, mine included although reworded, with little results. My personal opinion is that the main reason certain individuals go back to the garden, is that it was really Eve's fault for all of this and we wouldn't be in this fines mess if not for her.Really it was a weak kneed Adam!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa Neil,There is no question that women are important. There is also no question as to the need of women in ministry. Where the question comes in is more along the lines of "what ministry is appropriate for women, and what ministry is for men?" There are natural roles for each. God has given each person a work to do for Him. A man cannot do everything that a woman can do and vice versa. Both are needed and important. Blessings, Green Cochoa. This is an over blown statement.... You justify your comments from [ I believe]the Testemonies...which as I understand are nothing more than the principles of God's word [specifically principles from the Mount of Blessings and the Golden Rule and other places]applied to specific circumstances...which as I understand did not have to be written for the general church anyways if they had applied the biblical principles in their own lives... The question is about ordination-do women deserve it? You admit that God calls women to various God ordained jobs...but you will not allow a women to be ordained.... Sounds sexist...in the most vile of valued reasoning...that is religious garb.... Thank you for showing your true colors... Neil, I'm not sure to which post of mine you might be referring. Are you mixing me up with someone else? I'm a relatively new poster here, and the sum total of my posts at clubadventist have been made in like....the last week? So it should be easy for you to find where I made the comments you are referring to above. Please point them out to me. Blessings, Green Cochoa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Um....where does Jesus say "I am God." ??? We attribute these statements as an equivalency to the plain "I am God"...but He doesn't literally say that.... These statements are used that way, for sure....But the question is begged, "Why didn't jesus say 'I am God', if He wasn't trying to say something else?".... Your answer is in the form of a question- "Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among Gods?".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Who fell first doesn't matter, since both were created equally.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Quote: "What would Jesus say?" Let no man think that he can speak for me.......is what I believe He might say. People 'think' they know what Christ would do, yet even those that had several years as His closest friends missed the boat quite often. The question that many will not answer, those opposed, why do they presume to speak for God and say, 'God would never choose a women because......'. Really......God can't choose whom He will, for what ever He chooses? When will people really start believing God is in control? Who believes they speak for God? One can choose to not believe in WO leadership abilities, but please stop bringing God into it as if He has washed His hands or shaken His head against it!! God calls whom He will, male or female. God is for us, not against us! God is against only one thing....sin! The more I see this discussed and studied, the more I believe that is a distracting man made issue! It is a wayside stop in the desert while we should be heading for the promised land. (so..i will take my own advice and stop commenting on this issue) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 For so many years I thought that I could not teach the word effectively BECAUSE I am a small woman, and I don't have one of those wonderful deep preacher voices. Several years ago I was working as a CRNA (nurse anesthetist) at a day surgery in Longview, TX. I became friends with another CRNA, a black woman. I gave her a few CDs of me - teaching at a home group. She had an hour drive every day, home and back. She loved the CDs and has since come to understand the state of the dead, and the Sabbath and many other things. ANYWAY - Her husband was NOT a believer and absolutely avoided church and preachers. One day he borrowed her car for something, and when he returned he asked "Who was that woman on the CD?" "I like her voice." I laughed and told my friend how I had always wished I had a great preacher voice. Then she told me that the only reason she and her husband had listened was BECAUSE I DID NOT HAVE A PREACHER VOICE. Since then I had accepted that the LORD can use even my little woman's voice, to teach His Word. www.prophecyviewpoint.com Shalom Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last." (Mat 20:16 NIV) Women was created LAST. Hummmmmmm do ya think ????????????? Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8thdaypriest Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." (Gen 3:16 NIV) lifehiscost was quoting from the NIV Here's the NKJV Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you." For hundreds of years church authorities did NOT ALLOW any kind of pain relief for women in labor, because they said it was God's will that they suffer!! I do NOT think the LORD is speaking here of something that HE WANTED to happen. He is predicting the consequences of sin upon the human race and specifically women. Yes - "your desire will be to your husband." If a women wanted ANYTHING she had to ask a man - her father - or husband. And men would be the stronger sex. Instead of serving and protecting, too often - he will "rule over you." THAT is a consequence of sin - NOT something the LORD wanted to happen. In homes where the Spirit of the LORD does not live in the husband - very often He will "rule". Might makes right. Women down through the centuries - giving birth to children - knowing that these children were coming into a dominion ruled by the Evil One. THAT is what gives women "sorrow." The closest we can get to understanding how women lived during most of the agricultural based cultures, over the last 6000 years would be to read about the lives of woman today in Somalia. It will tear your heart out. "I will greatly multiply your conception" - OK nothing wrong with that. "I will greatly multiply your sorrow" - YES - BOTH sexes have a lot of sorrow in this sin cursed world. "In pain you will bring forth children." "Pain" - 06089 bc,[, `etseb {eh'-tseb} Meaning: 1) pain, hurt, toil, sorrow, labour, hardship 1a) pain 1b) hurt, offense 1c) toil, hardship 2) vessel, creation, object 3) (TWOT) idol "Pain" can be sorrow or hardship, NOT necessarily physical pain in labor. I doubt if Eve, or her daughters had painful labor. That has come about because our physical bodies have become weaker along with the breakdown of everything else within this dimension. There is a study at my website - www.prophecyviewpoint.com, titled "The Wrath of God - A Different View." Shalom Quote 8thdaypriest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted July 18, 2013 Members Share Posted July 18, 2013 Quote: "What would Jesus say?" Let no man think that he can speak for me.......is what I believe He might say. People 'think' they know what Christ would do, yet even those that had several years as His closest friends missed the boat quite often. The question that many will not answer, those opposed, why do they presume to speak for God and say, 'God would never choose a women because......'. Really......God can't choose whom He will, for what ever He chooses? When will people really start believing God is in control? Who believes they speak for God? One can choose to not believe in WO leadership abilities, but please stop bringing God into it as if He has washed His hands or shaken His head against it!! God calls whom He will, male or female. God is for us, not against us! God is against only one thing....sin! The more I see this discussed and studied, the more I believe that is a distracting man made issue! It is a wayside stop in the desert while we should be heading for the promised land. (so..i will take my own advice and stop commenting on this issue) Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Has anyone reviewed luke 10:37-42? I don't understand why a request for help in the kitchen should Receive a rebuke from Jesus? It occurred to me that whatever Jesus was teaching could be repeated at a later date. ....but food is time sensitive...not adding the right ingredient or letting something Make too long could have disasterous results....and even minor problems could upset Your guest from poor food preparation. Why is it that" sitting at the feet of jesus" was a big thing? I was at camp meeting, and it was reported that sitting at the feet of a rabbi Was reserved for an exclusive male disscussion .... If this was the case, Jesus elevated the status of women to an equal level. Sitting at the feet of a rabbi got inclusive rather than exclusive.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 What the Story of Mary and Martha is Not About Today, Luke 10:38-42 has been used to make one of three points, which all merits aside, are not the points of this passage and don't make any sense historically. Generally, these verses are used to say: 1. it's more importance to be with God than serve him 2. it's more importance to love God than serve him 3. it's more importance to listen to God than serve him Number one and two are easy to throw out: both ignore the historical development of this kind of duality. (A duality is a form of intellectual argument that states that something we once though was one thing is really two things. For example, many people think that the mind, or soul, and body are separate entities.) A duality, separating doing what God says and loving Him, wouldn't have been thought of for around 500 year and popularized to the point where readers would have understood it for 1000, so Jesus would have needed to explain all these cultural changes in thought processes that from our vantage point seem obvious (which he didn't, making him a really poor communicator and probably misunderstood for a thousand years if this is his point). The Jews of Jesus' time didn't make this type of distinction between loving God and serving him (and the Deuteronomical law certainly didn't); loving God was doing what he said and Jesus affirms this viewpoint. Jesus never faults his contemporaries for not having enough romantic feelings for God, or not having spend enough time in contemplation, he faults them for their actions: most namely, for oppressing the poor and trying to wage a religiously motivated war against Rome. Number three should be thrown out completely, as it doesn't even hold up to an internal critique of the passage itself. If the point of the story was to declare the importance of listening to Jesus, he would have been in a setting of teaching, not discussion, and the author would not have forgotten to include what it was that Jesus was teaching. (In Jesus' day, a teacher taught sitting down while his student stood at attention; when discussing something everyone was free to sit; and Mary is sitting.) Also, theory number three doesn't fit the mold for any sort of Jewish literature, where listening is taken for granted and action is required. Put another way: No Jewish prophet ever faulted the people for not listening long enough before putting into practice any of the things they heard. Jewish prophets always called for repentance because the people knew what to do, but didn't do it. What the story of Mary and Martha is About Jesus is nothing if not fully Jewish. In Jewish society at the time, high level discussions about politics or religion were only allowed to be attended by men (they even went so far as to prevent women from entering the temple; being only allowed as far as the Gentile's court). So, Mary is joining in with what was then a purely male activity, and crossing gender boundaries. Put another way, seeing Mary in discussing with Jesus would have been as jarring to Jesus' audience as seeing a woman at a urinal would be to ours (or running a company or being the president). Everyone's cultural response would have been screaming "This is not where a woman belongs!" And Jesus says he think's it's a good idea. After being, "out" for so long, Jesus is unequivocally declaring women are now "in" on these types of discussions. The story of Mary and Martha is a real life parable about Jesus declaring, in 1st Century Jewish terms, gender equality. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 I like that perspective! A fresh look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 I like that perspective! A fresh look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Equal in intrinsic value does not mean equal roles, according to the Good Book. Or your unique interpretation of the Good Book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 if sitting at the feet of any Rabbi was limited by gender only, then Mary sitting at the feet of Jesus is placing women on par with males....IOWs, Jesus declared thru His actions that women are on par with men in any aspect of religion/political discussion...and allowed them to be equal in all aspects..... This allows for women to be deacons, and apostles....and assumedly elders... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Heaven is a huge concept and the Bible presents a big picture of salvation never seen by those who limit themselves to details and short quotes and thinking they have a key to sanctification without a total picture of the Messiah found in Jesus Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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