If only

[lazarus]

If only Treyvon Martin had been legally able to carry a gun.

[Woody]

No need. He found concrete much more to his liking. It was clearly his weapon of choice.

[lazarus]

No need. He found concrete much more to his liking. It was clearly his weapon of choice.

Clearly, there was a need. He might be alive today if he defended himself with a gun. The NRA argument about Sandy hook is that if the teachers were armed then the gunman could have been stopped. Obviously, whatever your perspective on the Zimmerman case Martin would have felt less threatened if he had a gun.

Perhaps we should lower the age for carry firearm to 16

I'm taking my 13 year old shooting next week.

[Liz]

Maybe there would be less abductions too, if say, they lowered the age to 13 with classes.

[Gail]

You know, I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the whole gun thing (cause I'm up here in Canada, I guess)

I just went to the bank to pick up our float for Camp, which is now safe in the safe. But even though it consists of *ahem* some $K, I asked for an escort and got one to wheeling it to my car. No guns or security officer (which they don't have at this branch anymore). We just wheeled it out to the car and into the car.

Nothing happened.

This was a BANK, not private citizens (except me).

[phkrause]

Again, as I've mentioned before, if as they showed that he banged GZs head into the concrete that hard, he would've knocked him out. and TM would've been on trial for battery, and than probably gone to jail for a while.

[lazarus]

Maybe there would be less abductions too, if say, they lowered the age to 13 with classes.

Spoke to a friend of mine whose think of running for the state legislature in a big city in the North East. How about firearms training for all inner city kids. Give them respect for guns, and what guns can do and when they are old enough arm themselves so they can protect themselves from gangs and the Zimmermans of this world.

[olger]

So you're saying George Zimmerman is a miscreant that people have to be protected from.. That's an unusual way of looking at a man who was just found innocent.

As for myself, I am a Christian first -- whatever ethnicity can come later. It would be nice if everybody on here felt that way.

[Tom Wetmore]

I think you fail once again to get the point...

Put yourself in Treyvon Martin's shoes that fateful night. You are doing nothing wrong. A strange man starts following you through the neighborhood. There is no outward indication that Zimmerman is a citizen neighborhood watch person. He is just a strange man that follows you in the dark rainy night and from your perspective it seems suspicious and threatening. What if Treyvon had also been legally carrying a gun and under threat of danger at the point of the confrontation chose to stand his ground and use the gun to defend himself? (Without the gun, it appeared that he was doing just that with what he had available.). The president's point today on that possibility was how would we be looking at the situation now if that had happened. Would he have been just as justified as George to use deadly force to protect himself against an imminent and probable danger? Do we really want armed people who become frightened to start shooting?

Being younger and faster he might have outdrawn George in classic movie western shoot out style. But also just as likely they both would have gotten shot, dead or wounded. Or most likely when armed citizens start shooting at each other they do so with minimal accuracy and innocent people get shot. Will more guns solve the problem? Or make it like the stereotypical Wild West?

I think Laz' point is that many people see the how situation differently if it is "them" exercising their Second Amendment rights to keep and to bear arms to defend themselves. If you instinctively hesitate at the suggestion, take a second look at your convictions about this whole mess.

[Tom Wetmore]

And to be clear, George Zimmerman was not found innocent. The verdict was "not guilty" of the charges against him. There is a difference.

And as I would hope you as a Christian would understand, Laz was not calling him a miscreant. That is misrepresenting what Laz said. Too many misjudgments and mischaracterizations already... Sadly they can have very serious and even fatal consequences.

[olger]

I think you fail once again to get the point...

The president's point today on that possibility was how would we be looking at the situation now if that had happened. Would he have been just as justified as George to use deadly force to protect himself against an imminent and probable danger?

1) Laz can probably speak for himself..

2) Invoking the "president" and his irresponsible remarks is making this thread political. Ok.

Obama wants to deal in what-ifs. What if Zimmerman was a Polar bear? What if Martin didn't have opposable thumbs? You get the point - what-ifs are irrelevant.

What Obama was really saying today was that the outcome would have been different (as if he could know that) - making this completely about race, and fanning the flames of racism (that he and his complicit media started). As Bill Cosby said today "This wasn't about racism". Obama is failing utterly to remain objective in this and thus failing to do his job as president of all the people. Even Charles Barkley said today that he agrees with the verdict. I guess I do too.

G

As Bi

[Tom Wetmore]

Referring to the President isn't political. Uttering partisan propaganda is. You are running it in that direction.

The President's (funny how hard it is for some folk to actually refer to him as such, isn't it!) what-ifs were quite relevant. Yours are not. If you don't get the difference, or the relevance of what he said, you don't get the point... yet again.

One can agree with the verdict and still get the racial issues involved. That's not so difficult. The evidence did not support a guilty verdict. Truth is we will likely never no the real story. But since the evidence is limited it can't tell us conclusively what happened. A reasonable doubt remains. But to ignore the racial issues is a mistake.

Your reaction and that of a number of others, to what the President said today left me with an immediate puzzled counter-reaction. Did you actually listen to the same remarks that I listened to? All of them? Or just selected media snippets overlaid with opinions of already biased commentators?

I read some reactions and commentary before I listened to the whole thing. It just seems people do not listen very well. And that is, quite frankly, a significant part of the whole race problem. Not listening and talking past and over each other. And then reacting after having not really heard what the other person has said.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

It just seems people do not listen very well. And that is, quite frankly, a significant part of the whole race problem. Not listening and talking past and over each other. And then reacting after having not really heard what the other person has said.

My thought is that this whole issue about not listening to others or trying to understand others is really a control and power problem. To listen means to stop and open ones mind to the words and meanings of those words that the other is experiencing. Not doing that gives the non-listener a since of control and power over what is being said. To listen means we are giving up, perhaps, a crucial amount of territory, in our mind, to the other person. They may actually be right or have a greater knowledge of the situation than we do!!

[Tom Wetmore]

I think you are on to something...

What is needed is a major paradigm shift. We need to listen, really listen. And we need to see the others differently, actually see them. Look at them with new eyes. Hear them with new ears. And reach out and touch their lives in positive and meaningful ways.

This posted on Facebook -

Quote:

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night.

It was attributed to the Episcopal Bishop for Central Florida, Greg Brewer.

[olger]

Quote:

I want to live in a world where George Zimmerman offered Trayvon Martin a ride home to get him out of the rain that night.

I like this sort of thing.

`G

[phkrause]

You know what this reminds me of? When I first moved to Massachusetts, and started watching the Celtics play. My brother told me to watch the TV with the sound off and listen to the radio play by play, with Johnny Most. I found that he (JM) was watching a different game than those watching the TV, because his comments were not even close to what you saw on TV.

[lazarus]

So you're saying George Zimmerman is a miscreant that people have to be protected from..

Miscreant? A kid who steals candy from a store is what we in the UK would describe as a miscreant. GZ's misjudgements were such that it led him to take the life of an innocent teen. Calling him a miscreant would be to trivialize Treyvon Martin's death. There is no doubt that people need to protect themselves from someone like him. If Martin was armed it he may be still alive today. That's obvious.

Quote:

That's an unusual way of looking at a man who was just found innocent.

I'm surprised. So you think OJ was innocent then. Tom is right. Not guilty does not mean innocent.

Quote:

As for myself, I am a Christian first -- whatever ethnicity can come later. It would be nice if everybody on here felt that way.

What does that have to do with this thread?

[lazarus]

What Obama was really saying today was that the outcome would have been different (as if he could know that) - making this completely about race, and fanning the flames of racism (that he and his complicit media started)

For some white people, to even talk about race is to fan the flames of race. This is nothing new. He should talk in the most forthright and positive way possible. If we can't have this "conversation" now we can never have it. The President should keep talking until Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh's heads explode!!!

Quote:

As Bill Cosby said today "This wasn't about racism". Obama is failing utterly to remain objective in this and thus failing to do his job as president of all the people. Even Charles Barkley said today that he agrees with the verdict. I guess I do too.

LOL, So what if Bill Cosby and Charles Barkley say it was not about racism. This means.....what? Are you saying this is significant because they are black?

Next up will be Herman Cain who will say he would have shot Treyvon Martin and white conservatives will love him for it.

[olger]

Herman Cain is great - thanks for mentioning him.

[Bravus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H30wSQTBXVw

[Tom Wetmore]

Yep, that fits!

"You never wanted to understand."

[olger]

This is really good - just uploaded 12 hours ago:

[Tom Wetmore]

So, it's all good now. The young juvenile delinquent deserved what he got. No problem especially because the trigger wasn't pulled by a racist. RIP Trayvon. You are no great loss because a good man got rid of one more of your kind. [sarcasm done.]

Major flaw in the "journalism" brought to you by PJTV . There is good reason none of this information was presented at trial. It is not relevant to what happened that night and would have served only to prejudice the jury against the relevant facts.

All of this struck me as quite like the mindset that believes that a prostitute cannot be raped. Or that a young lady jogging alone after dark gets what she deserves when a man loses self control at the sight of her and rapes her. Let's give those rapists the benefit of the doubt.

It all sounded like an attempt to minimize the reality that this was a tragedy, no matter the outcome or the facts. But considering the source, one should not be at all surprised.

[OzarkWoman]

Yep, that fits!

"You never wanted to understand."

Sorry, but I have seen no real understanding from you either, only progressive talking points and nothing else.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

#654820 - Today at 18:45

Thanks much for that, Og. The comment referred to at the end of the video from Dr. Martin Luther King, where he dreamed of a time when little black children would play with little white children, brought to my mind that the principle of his hopes is best found in the reality that it will happen when God brings it to pass in mens' lives at the time of God's recreation, sadly not until then or by men doing the right thing on the earth in which we now live.

"And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them. He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever.”

And the one sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” And then he said to me, “Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true.” " Revelation 21:2-5 NLT

God cares!