Good Christian Values?

[M. T. Cross]

I have often heard this term, "good Christian values", in a manner that says that a person is a good person because of their Christian faith and/or upbringing.

The question I would like to put out is what makes Christian values any better that Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Heathen, Wiccan, Neo-Druidic, Gwyddon, Kemetic, Hellenic,Atheist, Animist, or Pantheist etc value systems?

[cricket]

I've heard also, "He's a good Jewish boy" or "He comes from a nice Jewish family."

It may not be that society as a whole believes that a person is good because of their Christian faith or upbringing, but it may be that certain subsets of persons believe that Christianity may indicate a good upbringing.

Though I'm not familiar with many other religions, I've seen Muslim families seek out others of their own faith--because only those of their faith were "worthy".

[M. T. Cross]

Dgrimm, I agree there may be some differences, though likely not as many or as large of ones as it may seem. But what makes Christian values "better"

Cricket - you actually bring up an interesting point there - all three religions you mention are Abrahamic religions. What is it about the "BIG 3" (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) that generates this line of thought?

[CoAspen]

Interesting that you are posting about the very same thing I was thinking about! I was going to use you as an example and then ask the question "Why do Christians think they have the corner on 'good values'"? I was taught that only those who believe in God, The Bible God, can really have 'good values', because good only comes from God. The older I became, which included learning more about the world around me, and reading the Bible on my own, I became convinced that Christians do not have 'exclusive' rights to what is good. The Bible actually supports this 'non-exclusivity' by saying humans are created in the image of God, period. No separation into groups of have and have nots. I believe the teachings of Christ were full of such an idea. He spent much of his time trying to teach His followers to lose their idea of exclusivity.

[M. T. Cross]

Synchronicity my friend LOL

Whatever the source, I think there is a basic good in all people. Life experiences may cause some to become jaded to or lose sight of that good in others and in themselves, but I think we all start out with it.

If we look at religions, I personally would put Heathens at the very top of the list for values. They have a value system that is incredibly intense and second to them the people I have known to have the highest personal value system are atheists.

Honestly, at the end of the day I think that if one needs to have a religion to build a value system in their lives, they have some serious issues.

[Neil D]

Synchronicity my friend LOL

Whatever the source, I think there is a basic good in all people. Life experiences may cause some to become jaded to or lose sight of that good in others and in themselves, but I think we all start out with it.

If we look at religions, I personally would put Heathens at the very top of the list for values. They have a value system that is incredibly intense and second to them the people I have known to have the highest personal value system are atheists.

"...there is a basic good in all people"...So, you can see the "image of God" that humans reflect...very good...and "Heathens" are people who have the image of God, just like Christians....

does that seem contrary to your thinking?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If we look at religions, I personally would put Heathens at the very top of the list for values. They have a value system that is incredibly intense and second to them the people I have known to have the highest personal value system are atheists.

M.T., that's generally been my experience, as well....though, I know a few pagans whose values rather dredge the bottom of the ocean. Then again, I know some Christians whose values sparkle with love, respect, and concern for their fellow human beings.

What values do you consider to be the top 10 most important values to you? (there's a list of some values below)

I think mine would be: Respect, Compassion, Insightfulness, Generosity, Courtesy, Discretion, Fidelity, Intuition, Sensitivity, and .... Elegance (not as a symbol of pride, but as a statement of family honour)

Accountability

Accuracy

Achievement

Adventurousness

Altruism

Ambition

Assertiveness

Balance

Being the best

Belonging

Boldness

Calmness

Carefulness

Challenge

Cheerfulness

Clear-mindedness

Commitment

Community

Compassion

Competitiveness

Consistency

Contentment

Continuous Improvement

Contribution

Control

Cooperation

Correctness

Courtesy

Creativity

Curiosity

Decisiveness

Democraticness

Dependability

Determination

Devoutness

Diligence

Discipline

Discretion

Diversity

Dynamism

Economy

Effectiveness

Efficiency

Elegance

Empathy

Enjoyment

Enthusiasm

Equality

Excellence

Excitement

Expertise

Exploration

Expressiveness

Fairness

Faith

Family-orientedness

Fidelity

Fitness

Fluency

Focus

Freedom

Fun

Generosity

Goodness

Grace

Growth

Happiness

Hard Work

Health

Helping Society

Holiness

Honesty

Honor

Humility

Independence

Ingenuity

Inner Harmony

Inquisitiveness

Insightfulness

Intelligence

Intellectual Status

Intuition

Joy

Justice

Leadership

Legacy

Love

Loyalty

Making a difference

Mastery

Merit

Obedience

Openness

Order

Originality

Patriotism

Perfection

Piety

Positivity

Practicality

Preparedness

Professionalism

Prudence

Quality-orientation

Reliability

Resourcefulness

Restraint

Results-oriented

Rigor

Security

Self-actualization

Self-control

Selflessness

Self-reliance

Sensitivity

Serenity

Service

Shrewdness

Simplicity

Soundness

Speed

Spontaneity

Stability

Strategic

Strength

Structure

Success

Support

Teamwork

Temperance

Thankfulness

Thoroughness

Thoughtfulness

Timeliness

Tolerance

Traditionalism

Trustworthiness

Truth-seeking

Understanding

Uniqueness

Unity

Usefulness

Vision

Vitality

[Ted Oplinger]

Looked for "Mercy" in that list, and found it not...in my books, it is not quite the same as compassion...

Just my $0.02

[M. T. Cross]

I am going to kind of answer both Pam and Neil here.....

The image of what God? It is both contrary to my views and not contrary to my views. Heathens (by this I refer to followers of the Asatru religion) have a value system of Nine Noble Virtues gleaned from the Havamal which is also referred to as the poems of Odin. They are:

1. FAMILY (Frith, Loyalty, Honor)

2. RESPONSIBILITY (Self-Reliance, Respect)

3. HARD WORK (Industry, Determination)

4. TRUTH (Honesty, Wisdom)

5. GENEROSITY (Hospitality)

6. FAIRNESS (Justice, Equity)

7. BRAVERY (Courage, Boldness)

8. STRENGTH (Endurance, Steadfast)

9. MODERATION (Self-control, Self-Rule)

So to answer Pam, these 9 virtues combined with Wisdom, Self Honesty, Self Responsibility and Love are the values I hold in the highest esteem. These are values that I truly learned (and am still learning) to embrace and understand from Asatru and Gwyddon - 2 religions that fall under the "pagan" umbrella.

I agree that there are dirtbag Pagans and wonderful Christians. There are also wonderful Pagans and dirtbag Christians. I guess that is kind of the point I am trying to get to here. People on the whole will be what they are regardless of religious affiliation.

Your long list is pretty good there Pam, all of those things are great.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Looked for "Mercy" in that list, and found it not...in my books, it is not quite the same as compassion...

Just my $0.02

True enough. I think of "mercy" as being a possible value for one who is "in control" of a situation or of a person... compassion, on the other hand, can be a value for *anyone*

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I really like your list, M.T. !!!

[Neil D]

Looked for "Mercy" in that list, and found it not...in my books, it is not quite the same as compassion...

Just my $0.02

Um, Ted...I am surprised at you.... Pam left 'mercy' off the list as Pam is a female...and females have no mercy....At least, that is my understanding of conservative Republican thought...as expressed by your sediments....a few years back...from a 'male vs female'/headship verses nurture' thread....

[running and ducking, frantically attempting to put on my asbestos underwear.....]

[Neil D]

....

The image of what God? It is both contrary to my views and not contrary to my views. Heathens (by this I refer to followers of the Asatru religion) have a value system of Nine Noble Virtues gleaned from the Havamal which is also referred to as the poems of Odin. They are:

1. FAMILY (Frith, Loyalty, Honor)

2. RESPONSIBILITY (Self-Reliance, Respect)

3. HARD WORK (Industry, Determination)

4. TRUTH (Honesty, Wisdom)

5. GENEROSITY (Hospitality)

6. FAIRNESS (Justice, Equity)

7. BRAVERY (Courage, Boldness)

8. STRENGTH (Endurance, Steadfast)

9. MODERATION (Self-control, Self-Rule)

Ok,..but clearly you understood the "goodness of man".....and just how do you define "goodness"?

If you say that any one on the above list is the self righteous anchor that they hold onto which a person can

rely to never fail....then I must insist that you would be wrong....Each one of the above lists can be let go of in a moment of weakness or can be deceived in to thinking that one is virtuous...

Whereas most Christians already recognize that they have 'no good thing dwelling within them'. Of course, we practice the 10 commandments and add the beatitudes...but most of all, we have our Lord to help us and guide us...and if He wasn't enough, we have the Holy Spirit, who will bring all things necessary to remembrance...Of course, if we dwell a bit much in the pining department, there is the concept of promise that we are made originally made into the image of God, ...a concepts that reassures every man where he truly comes from...the hand of God Himself, a concept that humbles every king in the world, and exalts every beggar...

[M. T. Cross]

Neil, obviously having your God to help and guide is fallible as well. I would say every single Christian has moments of weakness where they do not live up the the values they say they live by.

I can't speak for every pagan out there, but I know every single day I reach out to my Gods to help give me the strength to live up to the values I hold to be important. Every day I seek for their light and spirit to be reflected in mine. I know many Buddhists do the same thing in their own way, as do many Pantheists and Animists. Many atheist believe so strongly in the possible good inherent to mankind that they just live by it.

What I am saying here Neil, is that I have yet to ever see Christianity as a whole live up to their values any more than any one from any other belief system. I would say the biggest problem is the fact that so many believe and preach that Christian values are superior that it makes it so much more obvious when they fail.

Let me throw this out there - when you (or any Christian) fails to live up to those values - did your God fail then? Or is it on you, based on a choice you made?

[Neil D]

What I am saying here Neil, is that I have yet to ever see Christianity as a whole live up to their values any more than any one from any other belief system. I would say the biggest problem is the fact that so many believe and preach that Christian values are superior that it makes it so much more obvious when they fail.

Let me throw this out there - when you (or any Christian) fails to live up to those values - did your God fail then? Or is it on you, based on a choice you made?

The working Christian theory is that man KNOWS he does not live up to perfection....It is innate in our being...anyone who says otherwise is not aware of himself or is a megalomaniac. What we have is Someone to help us, to comfort us, to encourage us to live better...It is our life, and yes, I never meant to imply that God or we fail....but ultimately, it is us that lives...and those of us who choose to hide our life in Christ, usually chooses to fail or succeed in Christ...I can't speak for all, but I will assume that most try to live their life with Christ's help....

Of course, what our philosophy implies is that you live your life's philosophy on your own terms, on your own strength...The question is to the source of your strength-

*IF* our God left the image of Himself in our being...Whose image do you reflect?

[phkrause]

Interesting and excellent points MT. As to your last sentence, I'd say , NO, God doesn't fail, but it reflects on him. Just like bringing up a child, when they do wrong all look to the parents, guardians, etc. It reflects on them. Like many that have had a very bad upbringing, with parents that beat them, etc. When they have grownup and are on there own, they see God as being what there parents were like.

[CoAspen]

So......what are 'good Christian values' vs 'ungood Christian values'?

Is the term used as a put down of others, like its used in politics?

Is it simply a traditional term used to show 'exclusivity' that should be dropped?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

(I forgot this was "original thoughts" and quoted a couple times... mea culpa!! )

[M. T. Cross]

PK, exactly. Its not your Gods failure, and when I don't live up to my values its not a failure on the part of my Gods either. Its choice. I would say about 80% of the time we know what we are doing when we fail, but we manage to justify it as being "ok" right now. That's why in my life I hold the Gwyddon mantra of Wisdom, Self Honesty, Self Responsibility and Love above all other values. We are each accountable for our own actions and choices. We can be cowardly and lay the blame on others, circumstances, the devil (for Abrahamic people) our upbringing or whatever. But in the end we make choices and we all have the responsibility of owning those choices.

Neil, I am not really disagreeing with you. The 9 virtues I listed above are the lessons of a God.But I am pointing out that many people that worship other than Christians seek help from their deities and higher powers as well. They also have Someone(s)to lean on and help guide them as well. So again the question is - why is it that when a Christian does that, and bases their values on the guidance of their God it is superior to others?

CoA - I think it is a traditional statement that people use. It does however reek of exclusivity. People say a lot of things without really thinking about the power of the words they are using.

Here is the thing, I could hear anyone from just about any religion say "Good (insert name here) values" and it would not bother me. I would likely agree. I think most non Christians would not be bothered by it. But the difference with Christianity is that as a whole it holds itself up to be better than other religions, tries to bring everyone to it, and claims to be the One True Religion. So when the term is used in a Christian sense it comes across as arrogant and demeaning. I am fairly certain it is seldom meant that way, and there are of course some good values in Christianity. But again I ask, what makes them BETTER values than the values of other belief systems.

[CoAspen]

I don't think they are any better! But I would disagree with you that they are not used in an arrogant manner. That is why I call the term 'traditional' and we have not stopped to think how is sounds to others. I doubt we can substantiate the term 'Christian values' as being different from others, as a whole. Religious values can be different than society's values in some areas, but not as a whole. We confuse 'value' with 'belief' and therefor we read from two different pages.

[M. T. Cross]

I don't think it is often intended to be meant in an arrogant way ( with exceptions of course) but it certainly can be perceived that way. This has more to do with the overall "We are the worshipers of the one true God" mentality prevalent in Christianity than anything else I think. But also because people raised in Christian homes are often taught that Christian values are the only good values.

A good part of the issue comes down to ignorance, usually unintentional ignorance. A great number of people are very uninformed about any type of religion outside of the one they follow. A lot of assumptions are made based on superstition and misinformation.

[joeb]

If I say A is good, and don't mention B, does it necessarily follow, logically, that I think B bad?

[M. T. Cross]

If those are the only options then yes, or it is at least very strongly implied.

[joeb]

If those are the only options then yes, or it is at least very strongly implied.

To me B included all options other than A as a group. I guess I should have said that up front. My bad.

[M. T. Cross]

Fair enough, but if you are only mentioning the great qualities of A, it still implies that you find it superior to the things mentioned in group B. Just the fact that A stands alone and everything else is grouped into B says that.

For example when I say I think Tassimo coffee is good, I am indeed saying that in comparison all other coffee is inferior to it.