Good Christian Values?

[Gail]

For example when I say I think Tassimo coffee is good, I am indeed saying that in comparison all other coffee is inferior to it.

That is not how I would view that statement. I would remember that and the next time I went looking for a coffee maker I would consider that among the good ones to choose from.

That's like saying that Ellen White wrote good books, therefore all the rest are bad? Some people might feel that way but I would consider that narrow-minded.

[joeb]

Fair enough, but if you are only mentioning the great qualities of A, it still implies that you find it superior to the things mentioned in group B. Just the fact that A stands alone and everything else is grouped into B says that.

For example when I say I think Tassimo coffee is good, I am indeed saying that in comparison all other coffee is inferior to it.

I'll have to disagree with you. All my comment would indicate is that I find A good. It says nothing whatsoever about B - Z. You're inferring that I find everything about B -Z objectionable, as nothing whatsover is implied in my statement. You're reading that into it.

If I tell one of my grandchildren that a particular act of their's is good, I'm not implying that all their other actions are bad or have something objectionable about them. I'm simplying telling them that the act in question is good. The same goes for saying that Christian values are good. It says nothing about any other religion's values. For someone to think it does they have to infer that, for it is not implied in the statement at all.

If I say black beans and rice are good, am I saying all other foods are objectionable? Your logic breaks down on many levels.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

What values do you consider to be the top 10 most important values to you?

1. Genuineness (Be who you really are 100% of the time). This one gets me in trouble!

2. Unconditional Love/Friendship

3. Open-Mindedness

4. Kindness

5. Spontaneous Generosity

6. Forgiveness (including self-forgiveness)

7. Giver of Encouragement

8. Honesty (but not brutal honesty)

9. Vulnerability (don't need to be "tough" all the time)

10. Realizing "you reap what you sow" (aka karma)

These values hopefully cross all religious and non-religious lines; they are good human values - not just Christian values.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

I agree that there are dirtbag Pagans and wonderful Christians. There are also wonderful Pagans and dirtbag Christians. I guess that is kind of the point I am trying to get to here. People on the whole will be what they are regardless of religious affiliation.

Exactly MT. In my experience, one thing Christians are usually bad at that non-Christians are much better at is being genuine. If I were to ask the typical Christian "how are you?", I would most likely hear "Fine" or "Blessed" or "Happy Sabbath!" It wouldn't matter that they had just become homeless and divorced because of their secret drug problem. If I asked my typical non-Christian friend the same questions, he/she might say "Life sucks! I lost my house and my wife because of my drug problem."

Sometimes we Christians become "unbalanced" because we put so much effort into pretending how amazing our victory in Christ is; and living in denial of the same sin problems that are common to all of humanity. One Bible principle that pagans and athiests follow better than Christians is "Confess you sins to one another". How can I help or encourage you in your struggle (or you help me) when we put on the false face that everyting is OK all the time? I have much more respect for people who are willing to tear down their personal walls and reveal their true self than I do for people who feign self-righteousness. This is true regardless of one's religious background.

[JoeMo]

MT,

You asked "when a Christian fails, does that mean that God failed?" I'm gonna put my Christian hat back on now.

No, when a Christian fails to "hit the mark", God never fails. I believe He foresaw our failures; and sent Jesus to pay the price for that failure; and secured the victory before He ever made any of us.

That kinda sounds like a cop-out, I know. Many think that allowing someone else to pay the penalty for my crimes is about as low as it gets. But I didn't "allow" Jesus to die in my place. He volunteered for the mission way before I was born. My job is to either accept His payment of my debt or reject it. I have chosen to accept it. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Gail]

I agree with JoeMo here. Genuineness is truth and truth is a Biblical God attribute. Anyone who is pretending their Christianity is missing something (and likely denying God at the same time).

Having said that, it would be interesting to have some people explain the reason for faking it, whether the motivation is spiritual laziness or drought (or death, even), or shame or embarassment, lack of trust to disclose or what-have-you. I have a feeling that the ones who have taken an honest look at the situation will have something to say about it.

[M. T. Cross]

Joeb, I see your point. That said, in my original post my point was not that anyone is saying that other values are bad, but that Christian values are better.

I stated my post about a Tassimo in a certain way on purpose. I would actually never say it like that, what I would say is that for my taste a Tassimo is the best I know of. You might like a Keurig better. Whatever works.

I was thinking about this as I was trying to sleep a little bit ago, and what I guess I am not getting across is "how" this is often said, and I won't be able to cause I can't post tone of voice. One person can say it and I would understand that they are basically just talking about good values, and another person can say it and it will be full of the arrogance and self righteousness I mentioned above. As I only can base what I see off of my experience, I would have to say I have seen it be more the latter.

I think CoA summed it up very well in that people confuse values and beliefs. If you really start looking you will find most religions have a fairly similar core set of values. How those values are put into effect spiritually becomes the belief system.

[M. T. Cross]

Joe, that is exactly right. When I fail its not my Gods failure either. I know their strength is there for me. Its my choice to not use it.

[JoeMo]

MT,

I'm trying to understand your point about "how it's said. Let me try this:

Could it be just an idiomatic, politically incorrect way people say things? Like people grew sensitive to saying "Merry Christmas" because of religious diversity, most people started saying "Happy Holidays" instead. "Jesus loves you" is another meaningless thing to say to a significant portion of the population who never even heard of the guy or think He's as real as Harry Potter; yet well-meaning Christians continue to say that to random people. Christianity was the overwhelmingly prevalent religion in the U.S. and Canada for a few hundred years before non-Christian religions made up a significant portion of our population. Idioms pass down from our predecessors. Plus, people tend to blurt out trite idioms when they can't think of anything else to say. Back in my hippie days, "That's heavy, man" was one of those silence-fillers.

That being said, there are people who will insist on saying "Merry Christmas" and "Jesus loves you" as a Christian witness. Who knows? maybe that actually did start someone down the road to Christianity sometime...

[Gail]

That's heavy, man!

(But don't stop the discussion!) :)

[M. T. Cross]

Joe, the more I think about it, its a tone of voice, body language thing I think. Something that is hard to express via the internet.

But there is a large number of people that are convinced that since their values are based in Christianity, they are the better set of values. So far for the most part, everyone that has responded to this thread are people I have grown to see as open minded and fairly educated about different religions and the fairly common value systems they share.

I guess what I am looking for here is for those that think the Christian value system is better to explain why they think that.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I guess what I am looking for here is for those that think the Christian value system is better to explain why they think that.

The fourth of the ten commandments explains why, but the reason it goes with that and reveals the character of the One Who gave the ten, which by the way is something no other religion offers, is His willingness to die to ensure that not only I, but even all His enemies will not have to pay the penalty for following destructive behaviors throughout their existence up to this point of time, once choosing to accept His free gift on His terms.

And after all, since He is the Creator of all, can you think of one good reason He shouldn't have the right to do what He wishes with that which He has created?

" For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy."Exodus 20:11 NLT

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him."John 3:16-17 NLT

God cares!

[Ted Oplinger]

OY, Neil!

You had to really dig in the archives to pull that misconstruance of words out! Silly, silly boy!

However, the word you needed was "sentiments", not "sediments". It's not necessary to muddy the waters on emotional points, is it?

Blessings anyway!

[Ted Oplinger]

If I had to make a list, I would keep the list found in Micah 6:8

"He has shown you , O man, what is good, and what does the lord require of you, but to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God?"

The basic four (justice, love, mercy, and humility), from which all the rest are connect in one way or another....

Blessings,

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Micah 6:8

"He has shown you , O man, what is good, and what does the lord require of you, but to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God?"

Great list to start with! Next six items?

[joeb]

Joeb, I see your point. That said, in my original post my point was not that anyone is saying that other values are bad, but that Christian values are better.

I stated my post about a Tassimo in a certain way on purpose. I would actually never say it like that, what I would say is that for my taste a Tassimo is the best I know of. You might like a Keurig better. Whatever works.

I was thinking about this as I was trying to sleep a little bit ago, and what I guess I am not getting across is "how" this is often said, and I won't be able to cause I can't post tone of voice. One person can say it and I would understand that they are basically just talking about good values, and another person can say it and it will be full of the arrogance and self righteousness I mentioned above. As I only can base what I see off of my experience, I would have to say I have seen it be more the latter.

I think CoA summed it up very well in that people confuse values and beliefs. If you really start looking you will find most religions have a fairly similar core set of values. How those values are put into effect spiritually becomes the belief system.

OK. I understand what you're trying to get across a little better.

I do happen to think Christianity has values, good values, that other religions simply do not have.

For example, the humility that Christianity teaches. It teaches that we must be humble for we ourselves can never be good enough to earn our salvation. How humble? Humble enough that we learn to depend completely on someone greater than we are to teach us, change us, and save us. No other religion, that I'm aware of, teaches any value that is even close to it.

This humility, if not just given lip service, makes the Christian, kind, loving, generous, patient, etc.... This humility allows Christ to generate His attributes within us, and thus the list of attributes that I just gave. Even the humility itself is a gift from God, and it is the antithesis of our normal human values for humanity as a whole values self and the defending of self.

[joeb]

Quote:

Micah 6:8

"He has shown you , O man, what is good, and what does the lord require of you, but to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God?"

Great list to start with! Next six items?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

I do happen to think Christianity has values, good values, that other religions simply do not have.

For example, the humility that Christianity teaches. It teaches that we must be humble for we ourselves can never be good enough to earn our salvation. How humble? Humble enough that we learn to depend completely on someone greater than we are to teach us, change us, and save us. No other religion, that I'm aware of, teaches any value that is even close to it.

I would suggest you look for something else that distinguishes Christianity, because I think perhaps you have not learned much about other religions. Check them out for yourself and no I will not tell you about 'humility' as taught by others ones...search!!

[M. T. Cross]

Joeb, I can tell you this first hand, Gwyddon does not teach humility, it smacks you up side the head with it until you embrace it and are it.

[joeb]

Joeb, I can tell you this first hand, Gwyddon does not teach humility, it smacks you up side the head with it until you embrace it and are it.

M.T.,

This is a different kind of humility. It's one in which self is emptied out by supernatural power. It is never attained by human power, and never can be, for it is outside of the human paradigm.

Think about the following question. Can you get rid of your entire "self", and yet remain a psychologically healthy human being? This is the humility offered to the Christian by God. A complete rebuilding of the self into someone who gives entirely unselfishly by nature, not by training, for training can never produce a new nature. It can only modify what already exists.

This is what the Christian calls dying to self and being born again. That is the beginning of the new nature offered by God. We can still refuse it, and the majority of Christians do, but it is ours if we choose to accept it.

It's something only the creative power of the word of God can produce.

[joeb]

I would suggest you look for something else that distinguishes Christianity, because I think perhaps you have not learned much about other religions. Check them out for yourself and no I will not tell you about 'humility' as taught by others ones...search!!

I would suggest that you see no difference between that which is offered freely by God, His righteousness, and that attainable through purely human effort.

[CoAspen]

humility

noun

he accepted the award with sincere humility: modesty, humbleness, meekness, diffidence, unassertiveness; lack of pride, lack of vanity; servility, submissiveness. ANTONYMS pride.

Hmmmmm....a quick search in wiki shows various religions all use the same meanings. i think you discombumble things!!!! The question was bout the difference between Christian values and other religions values. You have not shown that Christians have a 'lock' on humility. They simply do not 'own' it as defined. Now perhaps you have your own definition but that would still not give Christianity the inside edge. The opposite of humility is what.....pride? Are Christians priding themselves in having a better 'humility'?

[joeb]

CoAspen,

You really don't understand Christianity. The righteousness(humility) it offers can never be generated by the human heart. It can't even be imagined because it is outside of the unregenerated heart's paradigm. There's a reason Christ said, You must be born again.

You're missing the reason Jesus said it.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: M. T. Cross

Joeb, I can tell you this first hand, Gwyddon does not teach humility, it smacks you up side the head with it until you embrace it and are it.

M.T.,

This is a different kind of humility. It's one in which self is emptied out by supernatural power. It is never attained by human power, and never can be, for it is outside of the human paradigm.

Think about the following question. Can you get rid of your entire "self", and yet remain a psychologically healthy human being? This is the humility offered to the Christian by God. A complete rebuilding of the self into someone who gives entirely unselfishly by nature, not by training, for training can never produce a new nature. It can only modify what already exists.

This is what the Christian calls dying to self and being born again. That is the beginning of the new nature offered by God. We can still refuse it, and the majority of Christians do, but it is ours if we choose to accept it.

It's something only the creative power of the word of God can produce.

First, unless you have been a Gwyddon, you can't really speak to the differences. I am not saying that to be snotty, its just a fact. I have been a Christian and an SDA, so I can recognize and speak to the similarities and differences.

To answer your question. Yes, yes you can. When you realize that self is not much different from an illusion you learn to put it in the proper perspective and priority and you can then start being a healthy person. I personally don't think that the whole "I am not a worthy being without your approval and guidance" mentality of Christianity is healthy. It always reminds me of an abusive manipulative parent or spouse type of relationship.

However, setting aside self and discovering your true nature is very humbling when you start to learn the magnitude of the Divine.

[M. T. Cross]

CoAspen,

You really don't understand Christianity. The righteousness(humility) it offers can never be generated by the human heart. It can't even be imagined because it is outside of the unregenerated heart's paradigm. There's a reason Christ said, You must be born again.

You're missing the reason Jesus said it.

Sorry Joeb, but I have to say that if you read over the tone of that post and the fact that you used the word humility in it seems to be a bit of a contradictory oxymoron.