Good Christian Values?

[Gordon1]

There's a reason Christ said, You must be born again.

There is no other way.

Christ knows the state of the unregenerate heart.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

You really don't understand Christianity.

Whose brand? Yours? Someone else? Who, whose or whom?

I do understand the Christ of the Bible, just not some peoples version!

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

I would suggest you look for something else that distinguishes Christianity, because I think perhaps you have not learned much about other religions. Check them out for yourself and no I will not tell you about 'humility' as taught by others ones...search!!

I would suggest that you see no difference between that which is offered freely by God, His righteousness, and that attainable through purely human effort.

No-one has said anything about purely human effort (other than you in the above quote). Where do you get that from?

[joeb]

Originally Posted By: joeb

CoAspen,

You really don't understand Christianity. The righteousness(humility) it offers can never be generated by the human heart. It can't even be imagined because it is outside of the unregenerated heart's paradigm. There's a reason Christ said, You must be born again.

You're missing the reason Jesus said it.

Sorry Joeb, but I have to say that if you read over the tone of that post and the fact that you used the word humility in it seems to be a bit of a contradictory oxymoron.

Not really. If you know someone has the missed the point of something, is it arrogance to point that out to them? I don't think so. It would be arrogant to call myself smart and CoAspen stupid/ignorant over the issue. I didn't do that. I said had just missed the point.

Lots of people, both intelligent and not-so-intelligent, miss the point about something that is said every day. It's a very common occurence. I've done it myself many times.

[joeb]

First, unless you have been a Gwyddon, you can't really speak to the differences. I am not saying that to be snotty, its just a fact. I have been a Christian and an SDA, so I can recognize and speak to the similarities and differences.

To answer your question. Yes, yes you can. When you realize that self is not much different from an illusion you learn to put it in the proper perspective and priority and you can then start being a healthy person. I personally don't think that the whole "I am not a worthy being without your approval and guidance" mentality of Christianity is healthy. It always reminds me of an abusive manipulative parent or spouse type of relationship.

However, setting aside self and discovering your true nature is very humbling when you start to learn the magnitude of the Divine.

First, I don't take anything you say as being "snotty". You're proven you're a pretty decent human being around here, at least in my eyes. You're just giving me your perspective on things, you and I have perspectives that come from opposite ends of the spiritual spectrum. No offense taken, and hopefully no offense given when I give my perspective.

Hmm..... How do I say this so you can see this? I'm not sure I can but I'll try.

At the heart of your effort in changing yourself is "you", your "self", your ego. What you're saying is that your "self", or "you", can kick your "you" out. Sorry, but that's impossible. "You" can modify "you", but "you" cannot get rid of "you". Only something outside of you can get rid of you.

As to the rest of that paragraph, all I can say is that it's no wonder you don't "get" Christianity. That's not being snotty either. It's just the recognition of the fact that you don't understand God, fallen human nature, the futility of you trying to get rid of you, and the Christian's relationship to, and with, God.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

humility

noun

he accepted the award with sincere humility: modesty, humbleness, meekness, diffidence, unassertiveness; lack of pride, lack of vanity; servility, submissiveness.

Quote:

Now perhaps you have your own definition

Hi CoAspen,

I know your post was directed at joeb; so pardon me if I am butting in. I do have a "different" definition for humility in a spiritual sense. To me, "spiritual humility" is accurately assessing my place in the universe vs. the divine's place in the universe. Whether we're talking about the Christian or a non-Christian God. Part of having a healthy realtionship with a deity is knowing that the deity has authority and power that we do not have; and realizing that of ourselves, we have no power over deities. We respond accordingly to the wishes and commands of that deity - that is spiritual humility. Does the deity you worship have the ability to channel his/her power and authority through you? YES! But part of humility is understanding that the power comes from the deity - not within yourself. Christ was "humble" in the fact that He knew that "of Himself He could do nothing except what the Father showed Him". But once Christ was clear on His Father's will, He was hardly "meek" or "unassertive". His humilty was shown in the power with which He carried out the Father's desires; putting His own life to the line to do so.

Many Christians and non-Christians have assertively gone forward to do their god's will at great danger to themselves. That is spiritual humility - putting the desires of one's god above those of themself. You don't have to grovel or bow before other humans to be that kind of humble.

[M. T. Cross]

First, I don't take anything you say as being "snotty". You're proven you're a pretty decent human being around here, at least in my eyes. You're just giving me your perspective on things, you and I have perspectives that come from opposite ends of the spiritual spectrum. No offense taken, and hopefully no offense given when I give my perspective.

[LifeHiscost]

"I take no offense until something offensive is said. So far you have said nothing offensive to me."

Quote:

Great peace have they who love Your law; nothing shall offend them or make them stumble.

Psalm 119:165 AMP

Revealing the true nature and source of a person's victories.

Maybe this is a good place to leave this, since I left it on the wrong forum once.

Quote:

Quote:

justification comes by faith.

And since that faith is not of ourselves, what man can boast unless he would exercise his arrogance.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God," Ephesians 2:9 NKJV

I see no reason but to believe that "not of yourselves" applies equally to faith, salvation, and grace.

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago."Ephesians 2:8-10 NLT

God cares!

[joeb]

M.T. Cross,

I won't even try to reply to each individual thought you put forth for that would take a book, and in this format replies need to be fairly short if they're going to be read.

When I said you didn't understand Christianity your reply shows me to be correct. Being a Christian isn't about the reward of heaven. It's about being like God, characterwise. It's about being self-less, not about being driven by self. Yes, there is a reward, but anyone who professes to be a Christian just because of the reward is not a Christian for that is, and you're correct, the epitome of selfishness. And selfishness is sin. Not only a sin, but sin itself, for that was Lucifer's failure. He wanted everything for himself, for his own gain. Gain for the purpose of gain, not gain for the purpose of giving that gain back to others. And that is the main atttribute he has been so successful in imparting to the human race. As he is more powerful than we humans are it takes a power greater than both he and us to change us, and since God does nothing by force, we must give God the permission to change us. We must desire to be the same kind of unselfishnes that God is. We must desire to be love like God is love. God gives us that if we ask for it and allow Him to take the attributes of the Lucifer out of our lives.

Being a Christian is also about taking responsibility for our actions, for our thoughts, for who we are. Asking for forgiveness is taking personal responsibility for we are owning up to who we are and acknowledging our failures.

The fact that there is no forgiveness in your religion says, to me, that it is not based on love. It is based on you. It's based upon your personal power of character/personality. There's really nothing greater than you in your religion. That's why I said it's based upon purely human effort. It's based upon works, your works. That's the antithises of Christianity.

[M. T. Cross]

I notice you keep saying it is based on purely human efforts....... yet I keep telling you that I lean heavily on the Gods I honour and worship. Why is it you keep missing that part?

You its based on works. But its not. It requires effort. It requires dedication. It requires that I search within and without. Yours requires all those things to be meaningful as well. If you don't put in the effort to study your Bible, pray, be dedicated to growing, look within yourself to find your true motivation, look without to your God, your spiritual leaders and authors, then the whole thing is simply lip service and completely meaningless. My value system of wisdom, self honesty, self responsibility and love are directed, guided, and driven by my relationship with Deity. But I have to be willing, I have to put out the effort to reach out to them. Every single day I ask that their light be my light and that their spirit imbue my spirit. That I be a reflection of them.

You say that it is the antithesis of Christianity. You are right to a point. Christianity in its organized form is totally opposite of what my religion stands for because it in essence is a judgmental, condemning, loveless entity. Christianity as an individual path and lifestyle is not always that.

That said, yes I am my deeds. So are you. According to Revelations 20:12 you will be judged according to them.

I am going to disagree with you on Christianity not being about Heaven. What else is salvation about? What else is the point of being "saved"? It certainly is not about this life, as terrible, horrible things still happen to those that have a very close walk with your God. The promise of eternal life is infused throughout the whole Bible. I have yet to see anyone that is like your God in character, mostly because none of you can agree on what your Gods character is like. The SDA churches whole Three Angels Message is based around the Second Coming and salvation. So really how can you say that it is not about Heaven?

[Gail]

The possibility of going to heaven may be a primary, selfish (if you will), immature reason for becoming a Christian, but it is not the most mature or only reason people sign up for it. If going to heaven as a method of self-preservation is a person's motivation, then I'm not sure we can expect much out of that person after signing on the dotted line of the church books.

The Bible says, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness. A desire for justice (righteousness, integrity, fairness) is a strong motivator as well. A longing for unity with God and spiritual connection would be deeper reasons for seeking.

The Christian religion represents some lofty ideals. There is sacrifice for the benefit of others involved. It is for the weak, but provides power to do marvellous things.

[M. T. Cross]

The possibility of going to heaven may be a primary, selfish (if you will), immature reason for becoming a Christian, but it is not the most mature or only reason people sign up for it. If going to heaven as a method of self-preservation is a person's motivation, then I'm not sure we can expect much out of that person after signing on the dotted line of the church books.

[Gail]

Quote:

Then can you tell me why I am always being told that I need to be saved so that I can have eternal life?

Nope- I don't know why you are always being told that. Eternal life is simply one more attribute of God. If eternal life is what you are looking for, then that would be the answer.

These are great questions, EmptyCross, but I think your best answers are found in the Bible itself. It will tell you what is different about the Christian God as compared to the gods of the day.

Some of those questions are best answered by the Holy Spirit himself, between him and your heart. I totally understand your confusion, because the Bible says that it is the Spirit that convicts the heart of sin, judgment, righteousness, etc. If you are not connected with the Holy Spirit then they will make no sense at all.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think E.C. has a very valid point. Of course, "going to heaven" *is* the ultimate goal of being a Christian.

Think of all the hymns that ring out that point:

Beyond the Sunset

Sweet By and By

We're Marching to Zion

The New Jerusalem

O That Will Be Glory

This World is Not My Home

When the Roll is Called Up Yonder

and more...

I honestly don't think Christianity can claim a monopoly on "good" values or "good" attributes. If one begins to do that, it's basically an "in your face" statement of, "I'm better than you." And it's not true.

Honestly, about the only thing that makes Christianity different from other theologies, including paganism, is the designation of God as the specific Deity Who is worshipped and that His Son is Jesus, who is also worshipped. (okay, let me make for cover before the rotten fruit begins to fly my way)

[Gail]

Not doubting that it is A goal. But it can be debated whether it is the ultimate goal. I should perhaps say, of everyone.

If one's earthly life is full of tragedy I can fully understand that person to want heaven more than life on earth, for sure.

I look at it as more of a end result of a fellowship begun here on earth. I see the goal as more of a reconciliation thing. What God offers is a growing more unified with Him in mindset and a change of personality towards reflecting Him. After a while the promise of heaven is icing for a cake of communion down here.

What our world needs right NOW is righteousness and healing and love and altruism. There is too much sorrow and suffering.

I see it in the sense that if heaven was the only thing to be gained, then there is no reason for me to set about to making that happen until I'm just about to die.

But I believe in the ideals Jesus lived and those I find in the Bible.

Sorry about the rant.

[Johann]

Beautiful hymns, Pam, but do they really present our true values and final destination?

A study of the last chapters of Revelation tells us that Heaven is not our final destination. Yes, for a thousand years, but what is it after that?

Quote:

A New Heaven and a New Earth

Revelation 21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

[Gail]

Quote:

I honestly don't think Christianity can claim a monopoly on "good" values or "good" attributes. If one begins to do that, it's basically an "in your face" statement of, "I'm better than you." And it's not true.

Honestly, about the only thing that makes Christianity different from other theologies, including paganism, is the designation of God as the specific Deity Who is worshipped and that His Son is Jesus, who is also worshipped. (okay, let me make for cover before the rotten fruit begins to fly my way)

I totally agree! And there are more questions that could be asked concerning this, ie- What is my purpose, or, How did we get here?

My answer would be is to seek those answers in the Bible and from the Holy Spirit. Learn of Jesus for HE is the way, the truth and the life, the Bible declares. It says pretty plainly what Christianity's God says of Himself.

I would not be surprised if along with answers you think of many more larger questions :)

[Gail]

And, as far as giving the impression of superiority, well, I understand that, for sure. I like how Jesus handled Himself. He spoke with authority and that was it. When He said something, it happened. For those who demanded proof, He never gave it. He didn't have to prove Himself, His proof was in who He was.

The Bible says, Taste and see that the Lord is good. It invites you to join the blessing.

I think it's we, his followers that are all screwed up, and I am in there with them. Even dabbling a little bit (honestly) will make that apparent in no time. It's one thing to say like He said, another to really BE like Him. Yet if there is a goal to Christianity, that would be it.

[Gail]

Sometimes I think too much. Like Dgrimm...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Beautiful hymns, Pam, but do they really present our true values and final destination?

A study of the last chapters of Revelation tells us that Heaven is not our final destination. Yes, for a thousand years, but what is it after that?

Quote:

A New Heaven and a New Earth

Revelation 21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

very true, Johann...I should have added that Heaven AND the New Earth are the ultimate destinations. ("Nirvana" is also a place of "no more suffering" and the ultimate destination for Buddhist beliefs. Interesting, I think..)

[Gail]

So a good question to ask Christians perhaps is, Would you still be one if there was no heaven in the end? What would be the motivation then, with the cookie removed?

[M. T. Cross]

That is a great question Gail.

[M. T. Cross]

I honestly don't think Christianity can claim a monopoly on "good" values or "good" attributes. If one begins to do that, it's basically an "in your face" statement of, "I'm better than you." And it's not true.

Honestly, about the only thing that makes Christianity different from other theologies, including paganism, is the designation of God as the specific Deity Who is worshipped and that His Son is Jesus, who is also worshipped. (okay, let me make for cover before the rotten fruit begins to fly my way)

High five!

[Stan]

I don't know of any religion that does not have any nifty expressions and truism etc, love your neighbour etc etc

What Christianity has is prophecy that is supported by history, and the fall of man kind to the redemption of mankind. Eden lost to Eden restored.

[Gail]

Also supported by prophecy, which is history before the fact...