Catholic tradition

[fccool]

Adventism usually prides itself against being outspoken protestant against unjustified traditions of Catholicism. It also prides itself on mirroring the early church.

I wonder what your thoughts are on something that's rarely being discussed here - that Adventism and modern Christianity in general is actually patterned after Catholicism in terms of traditional practices, especially in Fundamentalist circles.

For example, take the hierarchy.

Catholicism - global church with central office and hierarchical structure of trained priests and priest > bishops > cardinals > pope structure.

Adventism - similar structure with pastors > regional conference presidents > Union Presidents > GC president.

Neither hierarchy is found in the Bible to be practiced by the early church. In OT, the titles are governmental, to run the country. In NT the positions are functional, and not hierarchical. There's no indication that a pastor has authority over the congregation, neither there are "regional bishops".

For example, "Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, to all the saints in Christ Jesus that are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons."

General Conference in session actually self-ascribed the title of the "highest authority of God on Earth". Nowhere such idea is reflected in Biblical narrative, and it actually more reflective of the Catholic tradition, rather than protestant one.

Most of what you see in "church" today, is actually a remnant of Catholic tradition, rather than a protestant one.

1) Church buildings as place of meeting with hierarchical structure and paid clergy. (the early church was more of a community than a structure, and "paid members" only relied for support when it was available for mission-related work. There were no full-time paid positions. Paul had to work for a living, for example.)

2) Weekly tithes with money that have zero resemblance to OT tithing.

3) Liturgy and the idea of the church building as the Temple and the house of God, where people "feel His presence".

4) The front facing pews, with congregation listening to a sanctioned interpretation of the word of God from the trained priest (pastor).

5) The traditional sacraments that are practiced in a liturgical manner, rather than a meal and a communion, which it originally was.

6) The sinner's Prayer and pulpit invitations - nowhere to be found in the Bible, and are more liturgical tradition stemming from Catholicism, which uses prayer more like incantation rather than contemplative thinking (in private).

7) Segregated congregations, and conferences... quite embarrassing actually. We go further and separate children from Adults, something that most likely was not done during early church days.

8) Public prayer.

9) The idea of a sermon as a mode for congregational education.

10) "Song service"

The list really goes on and on. I'm not really saying that there is no justification for some of these, but I've always wondered as to why a church (or movement) that claims to protest against unjustified tradition of Catholicism would go on and copy so many unjustified aspects of it and hold on to it for so long without any due discussion going on?

Is the Sabbath the only unjustified change worth considering?

[LifeHiscost]

Not having worshiped in a Catholic church I cannot speak with any clear definition between the two other than the day chosen to worship. If they worship God as He asks them, they have their reward. Either church that moves away from Jesus in any respect, will suffer loss as much as the move admits to, but in the Adventist church we continue to preach the Word, not accepting individuals other than Christ and the Holy Spirit, through the Word and faith define for us personal duty.

That is a huge difference which will be made effort to change by the hierarchy, not seen in the Adventist church, and eventually punishable by death.

I believe how soon, we shall soon see.

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

If any man have an ear, let him hear.

He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." Revelation 13:7-10,15 KJV

God cares!

[pierrepaul]

While there are many similarities in the hierarchy, the SdA church is in theory based on "bottom up" democracy rather than "top down" hierarchy. In the SdA Church, lay members hold a majority of votes at each level. Local conferences select delegates to sit at the union level, unions select delegates to the GC. In the papal hierarchy the Pope appoints the cardinals and bishops.

In the SdA Church, the members of a local conference select the president (similar to bishop), and union president (similar to archbishop) does not appoint him. Of course the professional clergy has many ways to influence lay members and obtain the necessary votes, but the one and only time I was on a conference committee to select a president I personally was never lobbied by anyone, and the union president never expressed a preference for any particular candidate.

On the tithe issue, I feel we as a church missed the mark in establishing a "levite" class. I give approximately 7%, and I split that 50/50 between "tithe" and local budget.

On the liturgy, I also feel we missed the mark in building "sanctuaries". The temple has been destroyed and there are no sacred places anymore. There is nothing special or sacred about a church building or meeting hall. There is no sacrilege to use the same physical space for secular activities once the worship service has concluded.

I never liked the portion of the liturgy where the choir sang a song and the elders solemnly ascended the stage to invoke the spirit of God. It struck me as being as presumptuous as the priest pronouncing the hocus pocus and summoning the body of Christ into the bread. God is not our servant to be ordered around and summoned to appear at our calling and convenience.

On the other hand, by eschewing the eucharist and making the sermon the focus of worship, the speaker rather than Christ too often becomes the star of the service.

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, there are some aspects of SDA life and practice that may have come from a Roman Catholic example. I question that it is as much as Fccool thinks:

1) The central aspect of the life of the Roman Catholic faith and practice is the Mass which may be celebrated on a daily basis. SDAs have a totally different understanding and generally celebrate our version four (4) times a year. This likely came from the Methodist Circuit Riders.

2) The SDA denomination grew out, in part, of the beliefs of those who joined the so-called Great Advent Movement. These people ranged from Deists from the so-called Christian denomination to Episcopalians. Each brought something to the formation of our denomination.

3) There is probably a greater diversity that exists within the Roman Catholic church that is generally thought. This results in the probability that one can find Roman Catholic thought and practices that are the same as ours. Let me give you a couple of examples: a) Married clergy: They exist within the Roman Catholic Church. I have personally known a Roman Catholic priest who was married. In my hospital the magazine SAINT ANTHONEYL'S MESANGER is distributed. I often glance at it and I may read the section where people write in and ask questions. I am sometimes surprised that a response will essentially tell a person that this teaching is not central to the Roman Catholic faith and it does not have to be believed.

4) A fundamental difference: In the Roman Catholic Church, the members of the clergy constitute (in one sense) the Church. In the SDA denomination, the Church consists of both lay members and clergy.

[Gail]

Pierrepaul, I like what you've said here:

Quote:

I never liked the portion of the liturgy where the choir sang a song and the elders solemnly ascended the stage to invoke the spirit of God. It struck me as being as presumptuous as the priest pronouncing the hocus pocus and summoning the body of Christ into the bread. God is not our servant to be ordered around and summoned to appear at our calling and convenience.

I have wondered the same thing about New Age/contemplative or meditative prayer...

When a person prays, why would it be necessary to get into the correct consciousness level via mantra (in this case a single word or Bible verse), icon, candle-lit environment, all in order to invoke the presence of God?

As I understand it, in worship or in prayer it is we who approach God in humility, not call Him down to us.

[JamesOrlando]

My view is that the SDA church provides the best starting ground / foundation.

But from there, no two people have 100% the same beliefs.

So rather than comparing churches, we must look at each belief individually (rather than lumping them together into packages) and regard all members of all churches as our brothers/sisters.

Ephesians 5 talks about a marriage between God and the Assembly.

By that, He doesn't mean a specific denomination, he means all Christians that are saved.

[JamesOrlando]

I don't disagree with footwashing....but I dont think that it is a mandatory part of salvation!

It is all about creating a humbling experience.

In fact, we could say that the way we have commercialized it/staged it takes away from it.

I dont believe the way that we do it comes close to the humbling experience Christ offered when He washed a prostitute's feet without expecting a footwashing back, and with the shock value that we cannot replicate.

By Grace we are saved through faith, and our faith makes us want to follow Christ in all the commandments He has given, such as the Sabbath, baptism etc.

I think footwashing is a symbolic gesture that might help us to become more Christ-like, but not a matter of salvation.

Other things like state of the dead... yes I am a SDA and I share the SDA view. But again, my knowledge of everything that happens is only a dot compared to God's infinite wisdom, and again, I don't think that people with misinterpreted thoughts on this are doomed to perish. Not if they have faith and willingness to follow

[phkrause]

I don't disagree with footwashing....but I dont think that it is a mandatory part of salvation!

It is all about creating a humbling experience.

In fact, we could say that the way we have commercialized it/staged it takes away from it.

I dont believe the way that we do it comes close to the humbling experience Christ offered when He washed a prostitute's feet without expecting a footwashing back, and with the shock value that we cannot replicate.

By Grace we are saved through faith, and our faith makes us want to follow Christ in all the commandments He has given, such as the Sabbath, baptism etc.

I think footwashing is a symbolic gesture that might help us to become more Christ-like, but not a matter of salvation.

Other things like state of the dead... yes I am a SDA and I share the SDA view. But again, my knowledge of everything that happens is only a dot compared to God's infinite wisdom, and again, I don't think that people with misinterpreted thoughts on this are doomed to perish. Not if they have faith and willingness to follow

Excellent post

[Gregory Matthews]

Foot washing: A nice Roman Catholic practice, just done differently than we do it.

In Rome, foot washing is done once a year with the Pope leading out.

It is permitted to be done at other times and by other priests. But, it is not required.

[Gregory Matthews]

Additional information on the Roman Catholic practice of foot washing.

1) On March 13, 2013, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio became Pope Francis the 266th Pope of the Roman Catholic Church.

2) On March 28, 2013, Pope Francis traveled to the Casal del Marmo prison in Rome to celebrate Mass. While there he knelt on the floor washing the feet of inmates.

Foot washing is a part of the life and practice of all modern Roman Catholic Popes. Roman Catholic theology and practice allows it but does not require it.

Others are allowed to do such, but not required.

For information on source see: Francis M. Krakowski, "What's in a Name?" COLUMBIA, May 2013, Vol 93, # 5, page 24.