The Tide Is Turning

[Bravus]

Certainly as at 2003, two years into his tenure as VP, Cheney was still receiving up to a million a year in 'deferred payments' from Halliburton: check out this Guardian article. I can't find any evidence that that has since stopped, but I'm willing to keep looking.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,912515,00.html

[Bravus]

According to this article he is scheduled to receive these payments up until this year.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/091803B.shtml

In other words, 'A VP paid by Halliburton' is a simple and correct statement of fact.

[Derrell M]

Another organization contracted by FEMA and the Army Corp of Engineers for the Louisiana rebuilding is the Shaw Group. The Chairman and founder of the Shaw Group is also the Chairman of the Louisiana Democratic Party.

From the Louisiana Democratic Party website

http://www.lademo.org/index.php?display=ShowPage&id=329508

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About Our Chairman

J. M. Bernhard, Jr. is the Founder, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of The Shaw Group Inc., a Fortune 500 company offering a broad range of services to the power, process, environmental, infrastructure and emergency response markets. The Company’s stock is publicly traded on the New York Stock Exchange under the symbol “SGR.” Under Mr. Bernhard’s leadership, The Shaw Group has grown dramatically and through a series of strategic acquisitions to over $3 billion in revenues since its inception in 1987. Shaw is one of the youngest companies to be named to the Fortune 500 and recently debuted on the magazine’s list of “America’s Most Admired Companies”. Headquartered in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, the Company employs over 18,000 people at its offices and operations in North America, South America, Europe, the Middle East and the Asia-Pacific region.

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From the Shaw Group website

http://ir.shawgrp.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=61066&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=759300&highlight=

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BATON ROUGE, La., Sep 21, 2005 (BUSINESS WIRE) -- The Shaw Group Inc. (NYSE: SGR) today announced that Charles M. Hess has joined Shaw as Senior Program Director within Shaw's Hurricane Katrina Recovery Task Force and will be responsible for all aspects of Shaw's recently announced FEMA Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity contract. Under the FEMA contract, Shaw is providing all support services necessary to provide temporary housing assistance for displaced residents including site assessments, design, construction, transportation, utilities and facilities management. Mr. Hess will report to Major General (U.S. Army Retired) Anders Aadland, who heads Shaw's overall Hurricane Katrina Recovery team.

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[lazarus]

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For those that like hearsay that means something. Others have a higher standard.

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What are you talking about? Are you seriously suggesting the downing st memo does not exist or that it is not accurate or authenitic.

It was printed in full by the Times of London, one of the oldest and most reputable newspapers in the UK. Just because Fox did not report it as such does not mean it ain't so!

Come on Shane!

[Dr. Shane]

Brother Bravus, Those payments were/are part of the settlement agreed upon before Chenney was even elected. He would recieve them regardless of how the company was doing financially. There is simply nothing to that story. It is just charachter assasination by some on the Left and should be repulsive to us that cherish truth. We can disagree with others without having to slander their name and make them into villians.

[Dr. Shane]

The Downing Street Memo itself is hearsay. It is a second-had report of what was said at the meeting. We discussed this here already if one wishes to search the archives.

[Neil D]

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Shane said:

The Downing Street Memo itself is hearsay. It is a second-had report of what was said at the meeting. We discussed this here already if one wishes to search the archives.

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Yeah, we discussed it, and came to the conclusion that it was a report like the secretary's report or the treasure's report at church. It states what is being done.

As I recall, you objected to the wording being used. It was a cultural phrasing. I have yet to substanciate your claim, and I know a lot of Brits, some of which wonder thru C.A from time to time. You might remember Dave McQueen. You might want to run that phrasing past him...I have, and over all, most Brits can not confirm that some phrasing is especially cultural...

As to the "slander" charge that you make against me, here is evidence from a congressional hearing that say otherwise to the 'slander"-

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But Sen. Lautenberg said that Cheney's financial disclosure filings with the Office of Government Ethics listed $205,298 in deferred salary payments made to him by Halliburton in 2001 and another $162,393 in 2002. The filings indicated that he was scheduled to receive more payments in 2003, 2004, and 2005.

"In 2001 and 2002, Vice President Cheney was paid almost as much in salary from Halliburton as he made as vice president," Lautenberg said. The U.S. vice president's salary is $198,600 annually.

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I expect a full public appology for this 'slander' comment, Shane.

And as to your claims that the VP is NOT in the pay of Haliberton, I want to see the document that says so...

I have seen the document that shows that Cheny will recieve money/stocks from Haliburton, but I have not see what you have...So, where is your documentation?

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Why is it that the Left cannot stop comparing President Bush to Adolf Hitler? Either they don't know who Hitler was or are blinded by a strong, negetive emotion toward Bush that that some consider to be inflamatory language.

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Who says that it is the "Left" that is asking these questions? I understand that more and more moderates are becoming increasingly bold in thier questioning and asking these same questions.

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Why is it that the economic ties the US has with both those that agree with us (i.e. UK, Japan) and those that disagree with us (i.e. France, Germany) is considered to be a bribe and yet they have no problem with the secret bribes Saddam was paying nations on the UN Security Council?

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I don't know about you, but I expect the UN to be a double standard...It is now becoming a force that is working against the US because the US is the only superpower in the world....and it is becomeing increasingly clear to the UN that the US is NOT working with it, butthey percieve that we are doing our own thing without them. As such, they are working against us and will use any means to achieve thier goals. This is plain in the last few years of the Bush Adminstration. Concider the State Department official who was dealing with the retort that Bush is more of a terrorist than Bin Laudin...

Since you gave this image to me when I gave good evidence of my stance and concluded that you can not change my mind on that poticular [sp] issue, I will give this image back to you, Shane, since you are so fond of using it.

[]http://www.clubadventist.com/ubbtreads/attachments/188747-tn_head-sand.jpg[/]

[lazarus]

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Shane said:

The Downing Street Memo itself is hearsay. It is a second-had report of what was said at the meeting. We discussed this here already if one wishes to search the archives.

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Hearsay= rumour, rumour=widespeard statement not authenticated.

Are you really saying that the Memo is fake or a poor repesentation of what took place at the meeting? At worst, it is the merely the perceptions of the official who attended the meeting. Even if this is this the case susequent events and even earlier (earlier than the memo) statments by POWELL and RICE show that the memo is accurate.

I've searched the archives and seen the conversation. No case proven there. Didn't see the stuff about cultural language and I'm interested to know what was said.

[Neil D]

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. Didn't see the stuff about cultural language and I'm interested to know what was said.

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I am sorry to start the rumor about the cultural language. It might have been from another board/thread that I frequent.

The Downing Street Memo has been pooh-oohed thru out conservative radio as just a second hand report. Unfortunately, that is NOT the case. It was a report of what various people in goverments were doing and what was going to happen BEFORE Sept 11. It is a shame that many people don't see this 'compassionate' president for the hawk that he truely is, and what hawkish ideas do...kill our PR with other nations, destroy our taxe revenue, divert our funds to our badly needed infrustructure to hopeless poverty stricken contrys, drive up gas prices, create a deficit so big our children's children will be paying for it, and when we are attacked by terrorists [which I am convinced will happen before Georges term is up] the country will be privileged to see just how much 'protection' we truely have under Bush.

But I digress........

[Derrell M]

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the country will be privileged to see just how much 'protection' we truely have under Bush.

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Predictions not withstanding, he's done well so far. Four years of peace and quiet on the homefront.

[Dr. Shane]

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Cheney's financial disclosure filings with the Office of Government Ethics listed $205,298 in deferred salary payments made to him by Halliburton in 2001

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These "deferred salary payments" were agreed to before Chenney became vice-President. Don't let the spin get you. If there was any political hay to be made here the Democrats would be making it. Chenney would be in the same situation that Tom Delay is.

It really is terrible when other people start slander someone and we repeat it as if it is factual. Not one of us knows enough facts to be in a postion to be assasinating the vice-President's character so. Like I said, if there was anything to it, he would be in hot water like Tom Delay.

[Bravus]

No, the comment that was made is that he is 'paid by Halliburton', and paid by Halliburton he most assuredly is. They're 'deferred salary payments', so the argument is that they have nothing to do with Halliburton's current affairs, and that he likewise has nothing to do with those affairs. That's as may be, you trust him on that or you don't. But you claimed it was slanderous to say he's paid by Halliburton, i clearly demonstrated that he *is* paid by Halliburton, and you continue to claim that it's slanderous to say that. That might be verging on slander in itself. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Dr. Shane]

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Are you really saying that the Memo is fake or a poor repesentation of what took place at the meeting?

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Actually the people that were in attendance at the meeting have said that. Now does anyone understand why we need to get our news from multiple sources? Like Brother Bravus has said, too many limit their news to bias sources that just reinforce their own political preferences. If we did this with religion how many of us would be honoring the Sabbath day?

The downing street memo is bogus and that is why it didn't get traction in the mainstream press for very long. If it was true, that would be a major story that wouldn't have just faded away.

There are a lot of ostriches with their heads in the "sand". What is that sand? It is a bias view of current events. Imagine if someone only got their news from Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hanity? They would have their head buried in the conservative idealogical sand. And there are many of them. With the new media, I believe we are seeing more and more that choose an idealogical sand dune and firmly plant their head inside of it.

[Dr. Shane]

What is slanderous is to say he is giving no-bid contracts to Haliburton because he is on their payroll. But that is not all that is said. Many go on to say he actually started the war so he could profit. Now if his deferred payments were already agreed upon before any American ever cast a vote, how could he went to war to profit personally?

Then they go on to say Chenney is profitting off from the war. That is not true. The money he is recieving is a deferred salary for services he provided before running for vice-president. One could honestly say he is making money off the war in Bosnia. Even through the war is over, he is still getting checks for services he provided as Halibuton's president during that war.

[jasd]

Perhaps it may be appropriate to revisit a prior post…

“Eurasia -- everything (roughly) east of Germany to the North Pacific Ocean -- is the key to the world: "A power that dominates Eurasia would control two of the world's three most advanced and economically productive regions. . . . About 75 percent of the world's people live in Eurasia, and most of the world's physical wealth is there as well, both in its enterprises and underneath its soil. Eurasia accounts for about 60 percent of the world's GNP and about three-fourths of the world's known energy resources." [5] Therefore, he concludes, "The most immediate task is to make certain that no state or combination of states gains the capacity to expel the United States from Eurasia or even to diminish significantly its decisive arbitrating role." [6] Within Eurasia the "pivotal" and most volatile area is Central Asia, centered roughly around the Caspian Sea: "Another major uncertainty looms in the large and geopolitically fluid space of Central Eurasia, maximized by the potential vulnerability of the Turkish-Iranian pivots. . . . This huge region, torn by volatile hatreds and surrounded by competing powerful neighbors, is likely to be a major battlefield. . . ." [7] The facing page holds a map with the area Brzezinski considers most "volatile" circled; Afghanistan is nearly in the middle.

But this "decisive arbitrating role" requires policies, expenses and sacrifices that the US public is not willing to make under ordinary circumstances:

…

"In facing adversaries unconcerned with civilian casualties, our moral values. . . represent our worst vulnerabilities" ” [ed.] --Kaplan

“We don’t have friends, we have interests.” --JTisnewski ‘E-Ring’

[Bravus]

Scary in the extreme...

[jasd]

>>Scary…<<

Like, whoa! but I s’pose that depends on perspectives…

>>…in the extreme...<<

Indeed -- isn’t it? Nevertheless, Life is that caught and fashioned between extremes -- in this case, the extremes of existing and dying. And, Christ did promise

'an interesting' future, did He not? You know, “except those days should be shortened…”

It is approaching for you and me -- unless, of course, we believe in the rapture. That said,

it seems only --that which remains is how one deals with these circumstances as they prevail. Some, will continue to work the picket lines, some will stand in the breach, at bridgeheads -- sorta the modern equivalents of Leonidas, yet others left with confusion of faces; whilst all about will be the terror of ‘the wild one’ of Genesis 16 ‘whose hand is against every man’. A foretold

clash of civilizations of Biblical proportions in the offing.

Xtianity, despite the negatives and with assorted contributions from elsewhere, -- invented Western Civilization. America is its epitome. I don’t make excuses for either its people or that within its boundaries -- I’m a chauvinist American.

I think Intelligent Design provided the adrenal and its little helpers for such a time as this, and before I see the posterity of our children subsumed to Wahabi Islam and its doctrine of Jihad,

I’d rather see their wastelands turned to seas of glass.

Hopefully, that which is ahead may be forestalled; however, it will not go away because we think in shades of pastel colors.

Surely some revelation is at hand;

Surely the Second Coming is at hand.

The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out

When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi

Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert

A shape with lion body and the head of a man,

A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,

Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it

Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again; but now I know

That twenty centuries of stony sleep

Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

Slouches towards Babylon -- to be born? [ed. with apologies to --Yeats ]

[jasd]

Kohima:

we husbands, wives, sons and fathers, mothers too

remain here burnt by searing sky and bound by hallowed earth

by cause our blood anoints this land

a strange wind borne of desert sand and ancient earth

draws consonant and vowel to form a canticle unheard

torment of loss and death-stilled dreams

when list of day unfurls the night give heed your heart

to silent hymn of parchment souls on reeds of hollow bone

stranger, strangers, you who passeth by

"When You Go Home, Tell Them Of Us And Say,

For Their Tomorrow, We Gave Our Today"

brothers and sisters all --we now eternal wrought

apologies to --The Kohima Epitaph

Hopefully, the changing tide of politics is not one that will leave our boys and girls ‘beached’.

[Neil D]

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Hopefully, the changing tide of politics is not one that will leave our boys and girls ‘beached’.

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or "bleached" .

as in bones that are bleached in a desert.

[Bravus]

Erm, they're already beached, stuck in a hopeless quagmire with inadequate armor and supplies. With any luck the changing political tide will wash them all the way back home where they'll be safe.

[lazarus]

I think Bush is in alot of trouble right now. I think Rove has lost some of his touch. Perhaps it is the fear of being indicted. The only thing that would help Bush now...sorry to say it.....would be another 9/11. Even then it may not all go hs way because we are supposed to be fighting them abroad so we don't have to fight them here.

Stuff in Iraq is looking shaky too! I say this on yahoo.com news.....

"A spokesman for Iraqi President Jalal Talabani's party called Sunday for the ouster of Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari, a startling sign of the growing fissure between the top leaders of the Shiite and Kurdish blocs. "

[Dr. Shane]

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The only thing that would help Bush now...sorry to say it.....would be another 9/11.

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If they captured Ossma bin Laden Bush's number would shoot up perhaps 20 points. Depending on how Saddam's trial goes, Bush could get some windfall there too. But the biggest thing that could help Bush is energy prices. Winter hasn't come yet. If the price of energy doesn't come down faster than what they are expecting, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bush's numbers sink to 25% - 35%. I admire the man personally, but his energy policy seems too little too late. He could have and should have been much more aggressive with drilling in Alaska and off the coast of Florida as well as changing the postal service vehicles over to alternate fuels as to make the infrastructure for such nation-wide.

[Dr. Shane]

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Erm, they're already beached, stuck in a hopeless quagmire with inadequate armor and supplies.

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This military is the best armed military in the history of the world. Can anyone name any military ever armed better?

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With any luck the changing political tide will wash them all the way back home where they'll be safe.

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Please allow me a little liberty to adjust that quote to make it more accurate...

With cowardice of the changing political tide, it will wash them all the way back home where they'll face an increased threat of terrorism due to loss in Iraq enboldening the terrorists.

[Bravus]

As opposed to staying in Iraq in harm's way, where loss is emboldening the terrorists and creating new ones? And adding 'cowardice' is not appropriate: if the American people realise they were lied into Iraq, then getting out is not cowardice but making up.

[Dr. Shane]

The "liar" was Saddam Hussien. We need to be clear on that. Saddam decieved the world into believing he had WMD. Even his own intelligence service believed he had them.

Several forgien intelligence services believed Saddam has WMDs.

The US CIA claimed the case against him was a "slam dunk".

The President of Russian warned President Bush that Saddam had WMDs and was planning to attack the US with them, on US soil, using terrorists.

What was President Bush to do? Let Saddam continue to play cat and mouse with the inspectors?

In the light of 9/11 the terror threat was too real to ignore all the warnings. Remember President Bush's critics were saying he didn't do enough to prevent 9/11. Imagine what they would have said if Saddam had used terrorists to attack the US with WMDs and they found out Russia's Presdient had warned us. Come on... the invation of Iraq was responsible. That is why we had an alliance of over 30 nations.

We quickly defeated Saddam's army. Remember the aircraft carrier and the "Mission Accomplished" banner? That signified the end of combat against Saddam's military. That was the time we passed from waging war against Iraq to dealing with the insurgency. The insurgency has consisted mostly of fighting forgien terrorists recruited to come into Iraq with Al Queda. If we pull out without a victory, we hand the nation over to the very same enemy that attacked us on 9/11. How can any American favor that unless they have a yellow belly?

Every soul that dies in America is a symbol of American courage. Such deaths should steel our resolve and make us more determined to see it though to the end; Not turn and run like yellow-belly cowards. They (Al Queda) started this war. How can we possibly think of handing them a major victory after all the souls that have died?