The Tide Is Turning

[Neil D]

I would like to refute every point in the above post...but it is quite honestly going to go onto deaf ears. It matters not that ignorance is more broad based than intelligence. After all, that is how we get grunts.....And before you object, concider...why does the military require that they be allowed to come to high schools campus? Why does the military go after the most inexperienced among the nation to recruit?

Every day we pay for our foolishness with 1-3 soldiers....We now have nearly 2000 deaths from Iraq....

[Dr. Shane]

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We now have nearly 2000 deaths from Iraq.

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During the same time period of WW II we had lost 100,000 lives. During the same time period of Vietnaum we had lost 10,000 lives. We are at war. 2,000 deaths after more than 2 years of war compares very well historically. Take courage. March on.

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I would like to refute every point in the above post...

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It is a terrible thing to refute the truth.

[Dr. Shane]

Russia Warned U.S. About Iraq, Putin Says

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Russian President Vladimir Putin said yesterday that his intelligence service had warned the Bush administration before the U.S. invasion of Iraq that Saddam Hussein's government was planning attacks against U.S. targets both inside and outside the country...

"After Sept. 11, 2001, and before the start of the military operation in Iraq, the Russian special services, the intelligence service, received information that officials from Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist attacks in the United States and outside it against the U.S. military and other interests," Putin said

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So was President Bush just to ignore that and cross his fingers hoping the inspectors would find the WMDS before the terrorists used them to attack us?

[Derrell M]

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It matters not that ignorance is more broad based than intelligence. After all, that is how we get grunts

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Watch it dude. That is crossing a line. Saying that the grunts in the US military are ignorant and unintelligent is inflamatory, insulting, and uncalled for. Inexperienced, ok. Ignorant and unintelligent, NO. Very poor choice of words. Even Michael Moore doesn't go that far.

[Neil D]

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Watch it dude. That is crossing a line. Saying that the grunts in the US military are ignorant and unintelligent is inflamatory, insulting, and uncalled for. Inexperienced, ok. Ignorant and unintelligent, NO. Very poor choice of words. Even Michael Moore doesn't go that far.

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Not true, as MM does document that most of our soldiers come from a lower economic level who know that the only percived oppertunity to them is to join the military for 4 years so as to recieve $$$$ for college. You must have never saw his latest film. As for intelligence, I did not say they were dumb. I did say that thier life experiences were less and that, as the saying goes, common sense comes from bad decisions, which usually has bad intel.

[Bravus]

Kind of interesting, then, if Putin was the source of the Intel that convinced Bush to go to war, that in May 2003, not long after the start of the war in Iraq, Putin was mocking Blair over the non-existent WMD...

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20edi...20missing%20WMD,%20By%20Gwynne%20Dyer.htm

[Derrell M]

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As for intelligence, I did not say they were dumb.

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By saying they are drawn from a base that is something other than intelligent you seem to imply that they are unintelligent. "Unintelligent" is generally viewed as synonimous with "dumb." Moore paints them as uninformed. Many very intelligent people are also very uninformed.

( Lazarus and Shane seem ready to apply that last sentence to each other. )

[Derrell M]

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Kind of interesting, then, if Putin was the source of the Intel that convinced Bush to go to war, that in May 2003, not long after the start of the war in Iraq, Putin was mocking Blair over the non-existent WMD...

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LOL. Kind of like the kid who pretends to throw the ball and laughs while the dog searches the yard in vain.

[lazarus]

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Friend said:

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(

Lazarus and Shane seem ready to apply that last sentence to each other.

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Hey, Hey, hold on a minute!

Shane would never think of saying that about me

[Dr. Shane]

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Shane would never think of saying that about me

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That is because Shane doesn't get personal. Shane tries to stay focused on the issues being discussed - not the people discussing them.

[Dr. Shane]

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if Putin was the source of the Intel that convinced Bush to go to war, that in May 2003, not long after the start of the war in Iraq, Putin was mocking Blair over the non-existent WMD...

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Purin is a puzzle whose pieces may not even fit together <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

You may notice the Bush Adminstration has not even admitted to getting information from Russia... but we know they were getting information from everyone. In fact, all these forgien intelligence agencies corrupt each other with bad intelligence. One agency gets some bad intel and passes it to another and another and another, etc. This is how Saddam "poisoned the well." He misled the world to believe he had WMDs.

[Neil D]

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Shane said:

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Shane would never think of saying that about me

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That is because Shane doesn't get personal. Shane tries to stay focused on the issues being discussed - not the people discussing them.

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Ahem!

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Re: How can we lecture the Islamic world? [Re: Neil D]

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Ever wonder why glue doesn't stick on the inside of a bottle?

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Is that an inflamatory, personal attack? I hope not. We need to try and play well together. Nobody likes a bully.

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Ahem...you were saying......?

[Dr. Shane]

Good example of me trying to keep a thread on track. Thank you, Brother Neil. We don't need bullies or personal attacks here. They just get us off topic. Let's focus on the topics and not the individual members. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

[Neil D]

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Friend said:

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As for intelligence, I did not say they were dumb.

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By saying they are drawn from a base that is something other than intelligent you seem to imply that they are unintelligent. "Unintelligent" is generally viewed as synonimous with "dumb." Moore paints them as uninformed. Many very intelligent people are also very uninformed.

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MM shows that it is the lower class, specifically the poorer economic class that enroll into the military. It is the people who are looking to educational oppertunities that the military can provide by first risking life and limb for ecomomic advancement. That is how they percieve thier prospects.

The lower economic class [and there is one in the good ol' USA] does not know of thier opertunities for whatever reasons. That is who I was refering to...Anything else is in the interpretation of my words. I appologize if you take offense to them.

[Dr. Shane]

I agree with Brother Neil. We need to reinstate the draft. As much as the Pentagon doesn't like the idea. The military is filled with the lower class - many of which are racial minorities. It is the best example in America of the fat man dancing while the skinny man pays the band. Unfortunately the idea of a draft is not popular so the military has to entice the lower class with college programs and big enlistment bonuses.

[lazarus]

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Shane said:

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That is because Shane doesn't get personal. Shane tries to stay focused on the issues being discussed - not the people discussing them.

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I guess I was trying to be lighthearted by saying what I said about Shane getting personal.

Some of us get personal by inference, inuendo, veiled references. I prefer a direct but yet playful approach.

[jasd]

>>…or "bleached" .

as in bones that are bleached in a desert.<<

I appreciate the humor -- though I might have expected a bit of circumspection considering that the Kohima is a paean that treats of heroes…

>>It matters not that ignorance is more broad based than intelligence. After all, that is how we get grunts.....<<

[/sigh]

then again, one can only hope for circumspection; expectations being what they are.

[jasd]

>>Erm, they're already beached,<<

Agreed. I have family in the services with two killed (took furloughs from college) in action and one (signed up directly from High School having had a desire his whole life to be a Ranger) suffering a broken back whilst in country -- Iraq. I get feedback.

Tres corazón nobles… having heart, honor, and the testaments to DO for their country.

Our boys and girls are pilloried constantly, as being “grunts”, low-brows, and unable to effectively prosecute their duties, by the usual keyboard warriors ‘back home’ -- which bears hard upon those whose lives are on the line for the rest of us.

When there is moral dereliction in the will of the people, it resonates with our troops. So, yes, I s’pose

they’ve been ‘beached’ by those, in the main of the left, unwilling to step up to plate -- instead, opting to punch at keyboards. For Shame.

>>…stuck in a hopeless quagmire…<<

Perhaps quagmire needs expanding upon. Let’s see, WW II ended ‘bout ’45, didn’t it? yet we are still $upporting close to 120,000 troop$ in Europe. That’s a quagmire. Ditto, Korea --and all sorts of backwash dumps throughout the world. That’s quagmire. So, what…

we’ve been in Iraq mebbe a coupla years? lost mebbe double the lives a little wind (Cat 3) off the Caribe cost?

Though yeah, it is a quagmire when the POTUS becomes so gunshy of the fifth column in the skirts of the American media that we’re now in a holding pattern when we should be kicking fundament -- and all holding patterns deteriorate…

>>…with inadequate armor and supplies.<<

Ahh, my brief with THAT astroturf lefty. Let’s not forget that Clinton slashed our military by 40-45%… that’s gotta hurt! We had to lease foreign-flagged ships to transport our armor to the Gulf. Took us so long to get there -- that even Spanky and his gang could have moved everything! out of Iraq.

Speaking also of which…, hadn’t Kerry voted against appropriations that would have purchased body armor, etc…, yet had the chutzpah to turn ‘shortage of body armor’ into a campaign issue? Let me recollect…, he too was left of aisle, wasn’t he?

And so on…

Speaking of “war”… Like, mebbe, both houses of Congress gave their Commander-in-Chief carte blanche to prosecute -- that same Congress which did so after being briefed by their own separate intelligence oversight committees… that same intelligence shared with the POTUS, that same POTUS which the good citizens of America re-upped, that same POTUS which our intrepid keyboard warriors

huff and puff -- and slime.

Wow! those left of aisle sorts must really have a case of whiplash!

>>With any luck the changing political tide will wash them all the way back home where they'll be safe.<<

Umm, that’s the function of a nation’s military? to be “safe”? Mebbe, it is time for the draft -- of everyone between the ages of 16 -- and the geriatric’s Bingo parlors, both genders, even the mentally handicapped -- Everyone.

Addendum: Those seas of glass… likely, as not, will first appear upon our own landscape… mebbe more nimbly and more quickly than Jack, his very self.

[jasd]

“We even have the attention span of children. We get into a war and immediately demand to know when it will be over – like little kids in the backseat incessantly asking if we're there yet. Can you imagine anybody inquiring of FDR, in 1943, if he had a timetable for withdrawing from North Africa or Italy or Corregidor?

…

Honestly, I don't know how our parents and grandparents, members of what has correctly been labeled the Greatest Generation for the gallant way they dealt with the Depression and World War II, can stomach us. They have us over for Thanksgiving, and we're bigger turkeys than the bird in the oven.” [ed.] –Burt Prelutsky

[lazarus]

Who said this and when?

He [saddam] has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He [saddam]is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq.....

[Bravus]

/me checks jasd's IP address for the Iraqi domain that must surely be there

[lazarus]

mmmm...interesting...time to get out my tool bag!

[jasd]

>>Who said this and when?<<

I liked the man. Too bad he was such a soft shoe at politics and at the UN. I still wish he were part of the present administration.

Which Senators signed the following letter on October 9, 1998?

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."

-- Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, [:"red"]1998[/] Go on… get the blep outa here! Wasn't my man Clinton the Big Kahuna in '98?

And to whom is the following attributable?

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed."

-- Madeline Albright, 1998 Umm, who was she?

And the following…?

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983"

-- Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998 And who was this dude!?

Or the following…?

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement."

-- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002 Say it ain’t so, Joe.

and so on…

Democrats, all.

[jasd]

[/smile]

Remember, we’re sitting at the table with MAJOR players, with the highest stakes ever -- in known history.

The risks are enormous and we’ve already anted.

[lazarus]

You are correct or course

Here is the key difference. The Bush Administration decided to go to war despite what they knew to be true in 2001. Powell had grave reservations because of what he had previously stated. Thats one of the reasons why he's not in the adminstration today.

Even though many may have believed Saddam was redeveloping WMD they did not want to go to war because they did not believe that was the solution. Their judgement was right. The administration was horribly wrong. They knew intervention in Iraq was flawed with all the kinds of prolems we are seeing now.

Even the Brits were not convinced but Blair hadto go along for demestic political considerations.

What many predicted in Iraq (including Bush 1) is now taking place. To compare the War in Iraq to WW2 is doing the men and women who fought in it a disservice!