JoeMo Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 Lyndon said, "However, I do feel that just because water can kill, it does not give an OK for other substances." I agree 100%. No one should be encouraged to start drinking alcohol. However, the topic of this thread (I thought) was "Is coffee drinking really a sin?" What I was responding to is posts above talking about deaths from drinking Red Bull and vodka. Big news - it's alcohol intoxication that killed them, not caffeine intoxication. For the record, I drink 2 cups of coffee a day; always between 7AM and 10AM. I could do without it, but it helps get my motor going in the morning without interfering with my sleep. I do not consider it to be a sin - for me at least. God and I have much larger issues that we are dealing with (in a good way) than my coffee consumption. If and when we work through those this side of the Kingdom, if He has a concern about my coffee drinking, He will tell me; and we'll work on it together. My Father is patient, loving, and merciful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2014 ESV | Jas 4:17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. NASB95 | Jas 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. NIV84 | Jas 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 ESV | Jas 4:17 So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. NASB95 | Jas 4:17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin. NIV84 | Jas 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins. What does this have to do with drinking coffee? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2014 Someone mentioned that scripture should back up one's position. So, per the scripture, if you know coffee is harmful and you consume it anyway, would it not be sin according to James? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 What does this have to do with drinking coffee? Gerard E. Mullin, M.D. Become a fan Author of "The Inside Tract" A Myriad of Benefits Brewing? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerard-e-mullin-md/coffee-health-benefits_b_3936948.html 31Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;…1Cor 10 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Someone mentioned that scripture should back up one's position. So, per the scripture, if you know coffee is harmful and you consume it anyway, would it not be sin according to James? Who says moderate cofee drinking is harmful? EGW? There is currently much scientific evidence that moderate coffee consumption is actially good for you. If one drinks a gallon of cofee a day, yep it could be harmful. If someone drinks a gallon of fresh-squeezed fruit juice a day, it could be harmful (look at all that sugar!). If one drinks 8-12 ounces per day, is it really harmful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted October 30, 2014 Members Share Posted October 30, 2014 a couple days ago my local SDA church sent out an email requesting members to purchase the following for Thanksgiving and Christmas food baskets for the migrant Hispanic population. Take a gander at the 4th item. It reminded me of this thread, and I *had* to Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I continue to wonder and am surprised that people still want to pound away on this subject. Why do so many people want to precisely define what is 'sinful' and never what is 'good' in life? Have to wonder, a lot, on what Christianity's focus is. Woody and JoeMo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2014 Who says moderate cofee drinking is harmful? EGW? There is currently much scientific evidence that moderate coffee consumption is actially good for you. If one drinks a gallon of cofee a day, yep it could be harmful. If someone drinks a gallon of fresh-squeezed fruit juice a day, it could be harmful (look at all that sugar!). If one drinks 8-12 ounces per day, is it really harmful? At the risk of finding sin where God sees none, let me say this - Is it possible that we have set the threshold for sin so high? Consider this: ESV | 1 Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, ESV | 1 Co 3:16 Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him. For God’s temple is holy, and you are that temple. KJV 1900 | 1 Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 30, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 30, 2014 I continue to wonder and am surprised that people still want to pound away on this subject. Why do so many people want to precisely define what is 'sinful' and never what is 'good' in life? Have to wonder, a lot, on what Christianity's focus is. Is it because we want to get as close to the precipice as we can? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 I continue to wonder and am surprised that people still want to pound away on this subject. Why do so many people want to precisely define what is 'sinful' and never what is 'good' in life? Have to wonder, a lot, on what Christianity's focus is. As sinful beings we love to focus on the sinful rather than the good. Just who we are. That is till Jesus comes into the heart. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 30, 2014 Members Share Posted October 30, 2014 Have to wonder, a lot, on what Christianity's focus is. Is it Christianity or is it individuals who focus on the wrong things?? Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Why do so many people want to precisely define what is 'sinful' and never what is 'good' in life? Before too much time passes there will be those who suggest the death penalty for advancing ideas not espoused by the controlling governmental authorities. Get use to it. It'll be good practice for obtaining the attributes of Jesus, something every disciple of Christ will be needing to enter in to the Kingdom. …26and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life. Rev 21 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted October 30, 2014 Share Posted October 30, 2014 Gerry, Who says coffee drinking destroys or defiles God's temple? Again I ask - who says it's a sin? EGW? Both SDA churches I attend serve coffee between Sabbath School and Worship. Plenty of people walk in with Starbuck's. Nobody has a problem with it. Maybe it's just us folk in Colorado. We've legalized both coffee and weed. No one has come to church yet with a joint. Woody 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 {quote] Why do so many people want to precisely define what is 'sinful' and never what is 'good' in life? Can someone explaine to me what this post is all about??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 31, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 31, 2014 Gerry, Who says coffee drinking destroys or defiles God's temple? Again I ask - who says it's a sin? EGW? Both SDA churches I attend serve coffee between Sabbath School and Worship. Plenty of people walk in with Starbuck's. Nobody has a problem with it. Maybe it's just us folk in Colorado. We've legalized both coffee and weed. No one has come to church yet with a joint. Now, why would anyone want to consume on a regular basis something that also has bad side-effects? When I'm driving, I occasionally drink Coke for the caffeine (I don't like the taste of coffee) to keep me awake. I consider the consequences of falling asleep at the wheel more dangerous than the caffeine. Woody 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 I consider the consequences of falling asleep at the wheel more dangerous than the caffeine. As an example of the wisdom of that logic, about 2 years ago when considering it necessary to stay up most of the night preparing to travel south to facilitate my spouse's unexpected travel to the hospital for emergency services from a neurosurgeon's care, early in the morning just before taking some ZZZZ's, I called the hospital to find out how she was faring. In the middle of the conversation the call was dropped just after the receptionist informed me she had just been wheeled into ICU. This being just after a single vehicle accident eliciting the need to deliver her there, I decided to leave right away. The idea that it would be good to at least take a No-Doze tablet before heading out never entered my mind and coffee wasn't used in our house, as also was the case re: caffeinated soda pop. The trip was about 1 1/12 hours and on the way down I fell asleep at the wheel and ran off the road, totaling the van as it rolled over. To make a long story shorter, I had no injuries requiring hospital care but the accident could be considered at least partially the result of failing to risk very minimal physical affects from a little caffeine, leading to thousands of dollars lost in property damage as well as months of psychological and emotional hurdles over that period of time. Makes this counsel worthy of note. 10"He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much....Luke 16 And perhaps adding to that thought a little, it reveals God's care when facing difficult circumstances without recrimination. … 21But You, O GOD, the Lord, deal kindly with me for Your name's sake; Because Your lovingkindness is good, deliver me; 22For I am afflicted and needy, And my heart is wounded within me.…Psalms 109 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted October 31, 2014 Members Share Posted October 31, 2014 For me, I've never had to drink any caffeine to stay awake. If I need to stay awake, I just stay awake. Same if I need to sleep, I just go ahead and sleep. I can remember when playing PS and PS2 games and just playing all night long with out having to drink anything other than just water. And I used to drink coke, pepsi and they never kept me up at night, as a matter of fact, they'd put me to sleep more than anything. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 3, 2014 Moderators Share Posted November 3, 2014 For me, I've never had to drink any caffeine to stay awake. If I need to stay awake, I just stay awake. Same if I need to sleep, I just go ahead and sleep. I can remember when playing PS and PS2 games and just playing all night long with out having to drink anything other than just water. And I used to drink coke, pepsi and they never kept me up at night, as a matter of fact, they'd put me to sleep more than anything. Driving is soporific for me, even when driving in the morning after a good night sleep. When I start squirming and exercising my limbs to keep me awake, my wife starts getting nervous. That's when I drink my coke. Woody 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 3, 2014 Members Share Posted November 3, 2014 Driving is soporific for me, even when driving in the morning after a good night sleep. When I start squirming and exercising my limbs to keep me awake, my wife starts getting nervous. That's when I drink my coke. I remember one year when driving with one of my BILs, I happen to be taking a nap, and felt the van swaying every once in a while. I open my eyes and notice him falling asleep, I quickly woke up and asked him to pull over. I drove the rest of the night into the next day. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauralea Posted December 20, 2014 Share Posted December 20, 2014 I do not use caffeine except very rarely on multi hour trips and only if I can tell I am having a problem and there is noone else to drive and it would be difficult or impossible to stop and reach my destination when I need to. And I will pull over and take a nap when possible. Quote Behold what manner of love the Father hath given unto us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Actually, there is no evidence in the text of the story in John 2 to support grape juice. As with virtually every other usage of the Greek word for wine in the NT the context supports fermented wine. The Greek word describing the "good wine" to which the the master of the wedding feast positively compared Jesus' wine was intoxicating wine served first until the guests were too drunk to notice or care about the later served inferior quality wine. He chided the servants for bringing that good stuff out last. The Desire of Ages states, "The wine which Christ provided for the feast, and that which He gave to the desciples as a symbol of His own blood, was pure juice of the grape." (page 149) The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary states, "This was 'pure juice of the grape' (DA 149) Jesus would act consistentl with principles revealed to earlier Bible writers (see Prov. 20:1; 23:29-32; cf. 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 6:19. See on Matt. 26:27)" When we read John chapter two today it is easy to assign today's meanings to terms still used. Good wine today is wine taken from the finest vineyards and aged to perfection. No one today would claim that Welch's grape juice is good wine. However in ancient times grape juice quickly started to ferment and become wine. There was no mechanical refrigeration to perserve fresh grape juice for a long period of time. It is quite plausable the "good wine" was 100% fresh grape juice. It should have been served at the beginning of the feast before any of the fermented wine was served. That would have allowed the guest to enjoy the rich flavor before fermented wine giving them any sort of a buzz. Also, as a note, while we are off topic... while it seems clear that fermented wine was not forbidden by the Bible authors, drunkeness clearly was. That is hard to understand until we realize the amount of alcohol in most of these ancient wines was less than what is typically found in most beer today. One would have to drink a few glasses of wine in a short period of time to get drunk. The wine we have today is comparable to what the Bible calls strong drink. The process to distill liquor was not discovered until the Middle Ages. As Seventh-day Adventists, we do not drink any alcohol because we live during the Anti-typical Day of Atonement. We teach to be totally abstainant as John the Baptist was. Just as John prepared the world for Christ's first advent, we are preparing it for His second advent. phkrause 1 Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 At the risk of agitating the every-word-of-EGW-is-inspired folk, I think her use of the word "sin" simply was a poor choice of words. I appreciate this perspective. I think it goes well too with what Gerry has been sharing. There are various levels of sin. Making poor health choices may not be a sin that leads to damnation but rather a sin that leads to physical disability or an early death. I think it fair to say Ellen White was talking about the caffiene as the problem. It is addictive and comes in these dark liquids like coffee and cola. Too much of those can cause problems. I know. I have felt the pains of kidney stones. There are many in society that never drink water. Caffiene creates an addiction and they only drink coffee, tea and cola. That can easily become a health issue. Now there is an aspect to coffee that we miss out on as a church. Many evangelistical churches have put in a Starbucks-style coffee shops and use it for Bible study and prayer groups. Our denomination cannot copy that as coffee and cola does run against our health message but coffee drinking can create a warm social atmosphere. I have often went out with friends for coffee. I do, of course, look for the decaf coffee but too much of that will cause kidney stones as quick as the other. I will touch on the alcohol issue once again. I am a recovering alcoholic and sobered up at the tender age of 16 after living on the streets and running with a gang. Most addict-alcoholics that sober up in their teenage years do not stay sober. I believe one of the reasons I am now going on 30 years of sobriety is because of the abstainance position in the Adventist church. I think it would be so much easier to relapse if I were to see my Christian brothers and sisters drinking socialabily without any problem. The temptation would be for me to say if they can live a good Christian life and drink,,,, so can I. God has people in all churches but Adventists are called for a special purpose and I think the vow of abstainance to alcohol, like that of John the Baptist, is consistant with our purpose. LynnDel, phkrause and Gail 3 Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted December 25, 2014 Administrators Share Posted December 25, 2014 When we read John chapter two today it is easy to assign today's meanings to terms still used. Shane, much of what you say following this statement depend on it to be a plausible explanation consistent with our historic POV as Adventists. But the problem is that the statement is simply wrong as you have applied it. It is correct in the sense that we have indeed as Adventists assigned the present day Adventist menaing to the terms used as if they were written in our context. But they weren't written that way originally. As I have said repeatedly, the key word in that passage has but one single meaning in 1st Century Greek. And the key word (phrase) is not "good wine". The key word is used by the steward to describe the known and understood effect of what he was referring to as the good wine. That word is variously translated as "drunk" or "drunk enough". Today we could understand that to have two possible meanings - to have consumed any beverage till satisfied, or to have become intoxicated. Fair enough for your explanation if you only consider the English translation. But that key word in the original Greek had but one single meaning - "intoxicated". He unequivocally described "good wine" as that which resulted in becoming intoxicated. And in the context it does indeed make perfect sense. Once the guests at the wedding feast became intoxicated, they really couldn't tell, or didn't care that the last served wine was inferior. That is clearly what he said and meant. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauralea Posted December 25, 2014 Share Posted December 25, 2014 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?Who has strife? Who has complaints?Who has needless bruises? Who has bloodshot eyes?30 Those who linger over wine,who go to sample bowls of mixed wine.31 Do not gaze at wine when it is red,when it sparkles in the cup,when it goes down smoothly!32 In the end it bites like a snakeand poisons like a viper.33 Your eyes will see strange sights,and your mind will imagine confusing things.34 You will be like one sleeping on the high seas,lying on top of the rigging.35 “They hit me,” you will say, “but I’m not hurt!They beat me, but I don’t feel it!When will I wake upso I can find another drink?” Clearly an intoxicated lifestyle did not receive approbation. Quote Behold what manner of love the Father hath given unto us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.