Is coffee drinking really a sin?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

wow. I think we're seeing what can happen when Ellen White takes precedence over scriptures.. really kinda sad, and certainly not a good showing for our non-SDA neighbors, friends, and family...

[EmptyTomb]

wow. I think we're seeing what can happen when Ellen White takes precedence over scriptures.. really kinda sad, and certainly not a good showing for our non-SDA neighbors, friends, and family...

I make no appologies for Ellen White who does not take the place of scripture but clarifies and expounds the Bible.

We must not be hippocrites but own up to what are denomination believes. Lets not be ashamed of our beliefs and the pillars of our faith.

ET

[Tom Wetmore]

I think you exaggerate and over-react greatly. This one bit about centering on less than a half dozen words of EGW is hardly throwing her on the trash heap. There is much value in what she wrote. But to read her blindly without engaging ones own brain to think and reason would appall her. (She wrote something about the importance of being able to think for oneself and not to merely be reflectors of other's words.)

Do you understand her view of inspiration? It was not verbal. The person is inspired. The words, thoughts and manner of expression are their own. They are not inerrant or infallible. If your faith is so shaken by this one discussion that you feel it throws all she said and wrote out as unreliable, you are treating her words as holy writ dictated to her by God verbatim that are without error. EGW did not even attribute that level of inspiration to Scripture.

[pierrepaul]

As mentioned up-thread, the proscription is always about "tea and coffee", never tea alone nor coffee alone. In this sense EGW parallels the Old Testament prohibitions against mixing fibres and the Jewish midrashic prohibitions on mixing meat and dairy.

If you drink coffee, abstain from tea for at least 4 hours or so (to avoid mixing in the stomach). Similarly if you drink tea, abstain from coffee for a similar period.

[Gail]

As mentioned up-thread, the proscription is always about "tea and coffee", never tea alone nor coffee alone. In this sense EGW parallels the Old Testament prohibitions against mixing fibres and the Jewish midrashic prohibitions on mixing meat and dairy.

If you drink coffee, abstain from tea for at least 4 hours or so (to avoid mixing in the stomach). Similarly if you drink tea, abstain from coffee for a similar period.

Interesting thought, but wouldn't she use the word, "mixed," or, "combining," or something similar if that is what she meant?

[Tom Wetmore]

I think you may be on to something there... If we are going to take it literally as someone just suggested, that is literally what she says.

We could go the same literal direction as our friends the Mormons. They similarly avoid coffee and tea. But since that is what Joseph Smith said, it is not understood to extend to other cold caffeinated beverages, such as Coke or Pepsi which they drink.

[Neil D]

Do you understand her view of inspiration? It was not verbal. The person is inspired. The words, thoughts and manner of expression are their own. They are not inerrant or infallible. If your faith is so shaken by this one discussion that you feel it throws all she said and wrote out as unreliable, you are treating her words as holy writ dictated to her by God verbatim that are without error. EGW did not even attribute that level of inspiration to Scripture.

I am not saying that you are wrong, Tom...I think we all came by this path at some time in our journey....And I remember when taking someone to task on this subject, I was asked by another if this position was so wrong to have.....Yes, I do see the wrongness of the position, but is the behavor such that it MUST change?

I would tend to look at this as a growth subject...someone who espouses this philosophy is a child in the faith...Not too bad a position to have, but they will grow up and out of it sometime.....You and I did...[grin]

[Neil D]

I make no appologies for Ellen White who does not take the place of scripture but clarifies and expounds the Bible.

We must not be hippocrites but own up to what are denomination believes. Lets not be ashamed of our beliefs and the pillars of our faith.

ET

Yeah, I can see where EGW clarifies and expounds upon the bible....

....and I can see where she obscures it also...If we look at the educational system of Jesus, Rabbis gave their male students PHd studies of current events, religious discussions at the feet of Rabbis...Historical fact...and Mary chose PHd training over Martha's objections...She sat at the feet of Jesus...

EGW never says anything about this....the maleness of the PHd.

EGW never uses words like "lesbian" , or "homosexual" or "gay".....

If you are truly honest with yourself, as you gain trust in the scriptures, you will begin to see that she actually does address the issues of women's ordination, and homosexual issues....but you don't trust now....some people never come to trust in the word to that degree...

In the mean time, you need to learn to trust more...learn to trust others understanding...we call it growing in the spirit...

[pierrepaul]

Originally Posted By: pierrepaul

As mentioned up-thread, the proscription is always about "tea and coffee", never tea alone nor coffee alone. In this sense EGW parallels the Old Testament prohibitions against mixing fibres and the Jewish midrashic prohibitions on mixing meat and dairy.

If you drink coffee, abstain from tea for at least 4 hours or so (to avoid mixing in the stomach). Similarly if you drink tea, abstain from coffee for a similar period.

Interesting thought, but wouldn't she use the word, "mixed," or, "combining," or something similar if that is what she meant?

Probably; but then again, if the proscription was against caffeine rather than the medium through which the caffeine is delivered, would she not have mentioned caffeine specifically?

Language is inherently imprecise, and textual interpretation is fraught with difficulties. First one must ascertain the purpose of the author's writing. Did EGW intend to be writing a legal code? Or was she giving examples to illustrate a broader principle?

In other EGW writings, she repeats a trilogy of vices - dancing, theatre-going, card-playing. In English Canada, movie houses were referred to as "theatres" and therefore fell under the proscription. The same content shown on television or in a school gymnasium was OK. In French, a movie house is not a theatre, it is "cinéma"; "théâtre" is reserved for live performances. Ought EGW's warning to have applied only to live theatre? Or was she illustrating a broader principle, that of the vanity of worldly entertainment, which today would encompass professional sports spectacles? In my local congregation, there would be great unrest were one to suggest that watching soccer was one of those wordly amusements to be shunned (I presume in much of the USA football is followed closely by SdAs).

By "card-playing" did EGW really mean gambling? Did she mean the 52-card-deck playing cards specifically? Did she mean any card game (such as UNO, or even Bible trivia games with the questions printed on cards)? Was the evil in the cards themselves, or is there some broader principle at issue?

So back to coffee and tea. Current research seems to suggest that moderate use of coffee is beneficial. Then again, 100 years ago, research suggested smoking was a great way to calm nerves. On smoking EGW was correct 100 years ahead of time. I tend to give her the benefit of the doubt on coffee and tea, and I try to abstain; although I do use caffeine from time to time to improve alertness if driving or if I need to function on little sleep.

[Guest]

In the mean time, you need to learn to trust more...learn to trust others understanding...we call it growing in the spirit...

Learn to trust others understanding??

Now there's a recipe for something.

[joeb]

It's odd, Neil, but my Bible tells me to examine myself to see if I am in the truth. It teaches me to trust God. It teaches me not to lean on human understanding. It teaches me to trust the Holy Spirit to lead me into truth. In other words, my Bible teaches me to do just the opposite of what you assert.

[EmptyTomb]

If what Ellen White wrote on coffee and alcohol freaks you out,deal with what she says about meat eating.

"Among those who are waiting for the coming of the Lord, meat-eating will eventually be done away; flesh will cease to form a part of their diet. We should ever keep this end in view, and endeavor to work steadily toward it."{CH 450} 1890

"There are those who ought to be awake to the danger of meat eating who are still eating the flesh of animals, thus endangering the physical, mental, and spiritual health. Many who are now only half converted on the question of meat eating will go from God's people, to walk no more with them.--RH May 27, 1902." {LDE 82.1}

Can you honestly tell me for sure these comments mean nothing.

God gave us a prophet to bring us a message.A hard message,to prepare us for His coming and for the time of trouble ahead.

Sabbath is drawing near. Signing off..May all who participated in this thread have a joyous ,restful Sabbath.

ET

[Bravus]

So easy to tie ourselves up in knots of rationalisation, once we accept the proposition that we should not be guided by reason and evidence.

[EmptyTomb]

So easy to tie ourselves up in knots of rationalisation, once we accept the proposition that we should not be guided by reason and evidence.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:1 (KJV)

ET....Sabbath Blessings

[Stan]

there are too many people with real issues in life to spend a lot of time talking about trivials.

[CoAspen]

And yet you continue to post without evidence. You have shown that that the Bible is not your ultimate source by rejecting what has been shown to you, directly from the Bible and cast aspersions on others by saying they reject EGW when you, yourself, asked for proof from the Bible. You continue to avoid answering those points.

[M. T. Cross]

Well......... I have decided I am doomed. On my desk right now is a cup of coffee, a cup of tea, a bottle of sprite and a bottle of red wine. (mind you I have had this bottle of red wine for a month now but thats not the point)

[EmptyTomb]

Well......... I have decided I am doomed. On my desk right now is a cup of coffee, a cup of tea, a bottle of sprite and a bottle of red wine. (mind you I have had this bottle of red wine for a month now but thats not the point)

Be of good cheer M.T.Cross..Ellen White is mostly talking about people in the "SDA" church,,not you personally.

There is always hope for you as long as you are alive.If you have a bible read it.

But most folks in the "SDA" church ignore Ellen White because they are protecting a sin in their life they do not want to give up.

They also forget one vital irrefutable fact:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 12:17 (KJV)

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19:10 (KJV)

You see Ellen White is this prophet and those in the church who claim i need to use only the bible to prove what ellen white teaches is true are dismissing the very God who gave Ellen White her prophetic gift. Coaspen is a good example of such a person.

Jesus loves you M.T Cross,don,t ever doubt that.

If you want to experience real Adventism go to your local "SDA" church. You will experiance true unity in the spirit,,which will never happen here at "ClubAdventist". My pastor laughs when i tell him of some of the things that are said on this forum.

ET

[M. T. Cross]

Oh E.T.........

I have experienced "real" Adventism and for that very reason the chances of me ever setting foot in my local S.D.A. church ever again in this lifetime are less than someone who never buys a ticket winning the lottery.

So far in my life the only S.D.A's that don't make me want to strangle them are on this site.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19:10 (KJV)

You see Ellen White is this prophet and those in the church who claim i need to use only the bible to prove what ellen white teaches is true are dismissing the very God who gave Ellen White her prophetic gift. Coaspen is a good example of such a person.

I nearly can't believe what was just written. Two things strike me. 1) Someone is actually saying Ellen White was singled out in the scriptures as being THE spirit of prophecy, and 2) someone actually has the audacity to assassinate the character of a C/A member.

Unbelievable.

[M. T. Cross]

My pastor laughs when i tell him of some of the things that are said on this forum.

ET

Your pastor sounds like a fool then, because I promise you that within his congregation there is as varied of opinions as there are here on these forums. Likely people are just to scared to speak them out loud because they lack the anonymity that the internet provides.

[Ted Oplinger]

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 19:10 (KJV)

You see Ellen White is this prophet and those in the church who claim i need to use only the bible to prove what ellen white teaches is true are dismissing the very God who gave Ellen White her prophetic gift. Coaspen is a good example of such a person.

One has to really dismiss the very thrust of her own writings to reach such a conclusion, brother. She is not THE Spirit of Prophecy - that is Christ's and Christ's alone per His testimony.

As for dismissing God, do think again. Ellen writes quite clearly that God does indeed intend for His people to live by His Word and His alone. Yet, because God's people WILL NOT do this, even while making such a profession, God designed to drive people back TO His Word by the Testimonies He gave her to write. They are not to be used in place of the Bible. They are not to be held equal to the Bible. They are precisely what she claims them to be - the "lesser light" pointing to the Greater light.

All this is found in Testimonies, vol. 5, pp 654-691, in messages labelled "Object of the Testimonies", "Not To Take the Place of the Bible", "Wrong Use of the Testimonies", and the rest.

Interestingly, in her writings, she puts the "God's message" emphasis on just the Testimonies (for us, vol 1-9, Testimonies to Ministers, and likewise titled). The rest of her works are called "Lessons", "Thoughts", "Counsels", "Messages", and "Letters" - not "Testimonies"...and yet people comb through all kinds of private letters seeking a 'Thus saith..' from a source that was never meant to be used that way. Yet, it is the Testimonies she herself states meets every case.

As for your words to CoAspen...I think you'd do well to take to heart Romans 14:1-4 and 1 Corinthians 13:1-11, and test your own spirit first before deeming someone else alling away...

Food for thought there...

[Ted Oplinger]

My pastor laughs when i tell him of some of the things that are said on this forum.

Depends on what you tell him that he laughs at, and the spin you place on it.

I've had pastors laugh it up to my face with spun tales, only to get shredded by their own words on the matter.

Regarding EGW and pastors/pastor's sons/minister's sons - I've corrected those who wish to disregard EGW's works as unnecessary or disreputable, and I had to correct those who exalt her higher that the ministry she claimed for her works. The pastors I've seen coming through my church have spanned the spectrum from considering the Testimonies as she herself said they should, to those who exalted her on a pedestal and considered everything she wrote to be equal to Scripture. Those in the latter class usually can't sustain their argument for very long without stepping on her own words pretty severely. They also usually show can't deal straight with the Word of God.

E.T., those willing to play dicey with the Word of God also play dicey the EGW as well - using only those 1 sentence quotes that appear to support their point. It is in pulling in the background context surrounding that quite that the truth of what she says is found.

Your pastor's probably a fine person with a credible sense of humor. Should he ever be called to my church, we'd get along just fine.

More food for thought...

[Bravus]

(excellent points, Ted)

Biblical evidence. Bring it, or don't claim to be able to.

I actually don't have a problem with people using Ellen White to support their views.

The problem is when they confuse EGW evidence with Biblical evidence.

Or Biblical evidence in relation to alcohol with Biblical evidence in relation to coffee.

And finally, if 'faith is the evidence for things not seen'... and if that ends up being translated as 'anything someone believes for which they do not have any other evidence'... then it can be evidence for anything. And anything that can be evidence for anything is evidence for nothing.

[Stan]

Am sure he will be back under yet another name....

Just sayin'.