Hebrews 11

[David_McQueen]

this came up on another christian forum I frequent.

Would it make a difference to the context of this chapter if some of the characters were real, but others were fictional or characters of Jewish folklore and legend?

[Bravus]

I'm not sure I'm answering your question, Dave, but I just have to say it - what encourages me most about Hebrews 11 is that the spiritual heroes are almost all broken people in various ways... but through God's power they conquered and are held up as examples for us.

[David_McQueen]

But what if Sarah giving birth at 100 or Cain slaying Abel was a legend rather than an actual event, what then?

[Bravus]

Yeah, it's an interesting question all right. I'm not sure it would really matter that much to me: the chapter is intended as an exhortation, and stories can serve that. For example, does every illustration story a preacher uses have to be a true account of actual events? What if the order and nature of the events has been tweaked a bit to convey the meaning more clearly?

I understand your approach here and its link to an earlier discussion of 'myth'. I'm not sure that it serves to clarify that situation, though: those who insist very strongly that every Biblical story is a true and accurate recounting of actual events maintain that perspective as an end in itself, rather than in view of the uses of those stories for exhortation and illumination...

Heh, trying again, less verbosely:

I think you'll find that those who said all the stories are true are the some ones who will say all the stories *must* be true to be usable in the context of Hebrews 11.

[Amelia]

How about this. Would the stories move you as much if you found out they were fictional? If the story had manifested change in your life, would you try to correct that change in light of new information? What if that story brought you to the feet of our Father?

I believe that if I have faith as small as a mustard seed, that I can move mountains. Literal mountains? Or whatever problem you have that is like unto a mountain at that time? I really dont need to move Mt Hood anywhere but I am struggling with a mountain called marital separation. My faith in God is getting me through this, even though I am not worthy.

Even if Sarah didnt have a child at the age of 100. So what. The story tells us about faith. About patience. About letting God take control of the path of our lives.

[Suzanne Sutton]

[:"blue"]The incidences mentioned in Hebrews 11 all actually occurred or the Bible is a lie. And we know that that is not true. Indeed the Old Testament covers several chapters delving into the account of Abraham and Sarah and the various other accounts. If they were not real people, WE are not real people, its simple as that.

Suzanne[/]

[Bravus]

OK, glad we got that settled.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi David, that is a question that would fall under Paul's counsel to Timothy, "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strife." 2 Timothy 2:23

Why stop with Hebrews 11? Why not ask if Jesus's miracles were real? Or maybe the whole story about Jesus is a legend or maybe Adam and Eve or maybe there's really no devil. I think you get my drift, there's no end to what you can call a legend. The results? I'll leave that for you to answer.

Norman

[cardw]

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Why stop with Hebrews 11? Why not ask if Jesus's miracles were real? Or maybe the whole story about Jesus is a legend or maybe Adam and Eve or maybe there's really no devil. I think you get my drift, there's no end to what you can call a legend. The results? I'll leave that for you to answer.

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This is exactly the problem the Jesus Seminar tried to tackle. What is the essential message of Jesus after we strip away all the things that were added? The Greek ideas about gods, the pagan rituals, the need to distance Christianity from being Jewish, and the non verifiable aspects that were added to make Christianity legitimate to the political systems of the day. If one takes the time to read the new sources of information we have about all the philosophies, the religious views, and the political influences that surrounded the formation of the Bible and the religion we call Christianity today it becomes quite obvious that the Christianity we have today is a much different movement than what Jesus was talking about. Jesus has essentially been hijacked.

This literal understanding of the Bible is generally based on ignorance and an unwillingness to really look at all the evidence. I can understand the difficulty of changing such foundational beliefs if one has been taught these to be unchallengable. It also introduces a much larger aspect of uncertainty to one's life. But this is a fear based approach to life, which, in itself, should provide strong evidence that this literal view is deeply flawed.

Just step back for a moment and look at the tremendous mental gymnastics it takes to hold the Bible together as being consistent and literal. It makes far more sense to see the Bible for what it is. A collection of oral tradition, modfied through the ages to meet the needs of the communities it served. This makes far more sense than to argue that God was being loving and just by having a man stoned for gathering sticks on the Sabbath. (If you read the account, its not even clear if the man was an Isrealite. And in this account it is God Himself who orders the man to be stoned.) The story may be there to warn us about mixing "god" or an individual's interpretation of God and government. If these stories were about some other tradition or god we would have no trouble dismissing it as superstition, yet we hold on to these pictures of God and keep trying to make them fit with a picture that Jesus presented.

[David_McQueen]

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Norman said:

Hi David, that is a question that would fall under Paul's counsel to Timothy, "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strife." 2 Timothy 2:23

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Normally I would be insulted by such a statement, but for now I will ignore a quest for truth as being called foolish and unlearned.

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Why stop with Hebrews 11? Why not ask if Jesus's miracles were real? Or maybe the whole story about Jesus is a legend or maybe Adam and Eve or maybe there's really no devil. I think you get my drift, there's no end to what you can call a legend. The results? I'll leave that for you to answer.

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I was focusing on Hebrews 11, and the principle behind it that's all. I believe that all the characters mentioned are real, but have met many who don't hence the asking of the question. Dont add into the mix what is not there.

[Bravus]

David - I think we're seeing the effect I described above: literalists will be literalists. And not only will they believe a certain way, they'll damn you for not believing the same way. There are plenty of other texts, such as 'love the Lord your God with all your ... mind' that encourage us to search out the true things of God, not shut us down and shut us up.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi David, I said what I did because you said that the question was asked in some other forum. What I quoted from the Bible was directed at the question, not you. I'm glad you were not insulted because that was not my intention.

If this is a true quest for knowledge and you need to know this then my advice to you is to do as you please. I never intended to control you or to get you to think as I do. (As Bravus suggests) Just a bit of advice out of concern.

With questions like that, weaker Christians may read them and begin to doubt and who knows what they'll end up doing. Many times there are things that I'd like to say but refrain because of the effect that it may have on others.

Some will argue and some may be emboldened to do something they'll regret and then I have to bear the responsibility and if I love souls that will concern me.

You will not find any saving grace or uplifting influence in such questions.

Norman

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

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Bravus said:

David - I think we're seeing the effect I described above: literalists will be literalists. And not only will they believe a certain way, they'll damn you for not believing the same way. There are plenty of other texts, such as 'love the Lord your God with all your ...

mind

' that encourage us to search out the true things of God, not shut us down and shut us up.

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Bravus,

While you choose to believe the stereotypical explanation for difficulty between believers as caused by the literalist's willingness to condemn those that don't believe as they do, you place yourself in the position of being a condemner if you believe anything literal about the instruction of the Word.

There are absolutes about God and His instructions for His children, although it is doubtful any fallen human being has been able to plumb the depths of any absolutes, the person who doesn't believe in absolutes is just as likely to self-righteously proclaim that, to be a literalist removes them from understanding God's will, literally.

Why do the (some) non-literalists find it important to insure that literalists join them in a shifting doctrinal belief system that never allows one to settle on anything that can be considered unequivocally true?

[:"red"] "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

"And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

"Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

"The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."

When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching" [/] Matt 7:24-28 NASB

In order to be able to heed this advice it would seem necessary to conclude Jesus to be a literal Person, giving

literal advice, that can be literally understood, before He made the determination one could/couldn't be literally allowed into a universe of harmonious living (ie: heaven, paradise) and keep it that way.

The fact that some need to be kept in the dark, so to speak, through the using of parables, is no indication there is no ability to have concrete values that are impeccably firm. In fact, even the early disciples underwent some transformation before greater light was allowed in their experience.

[:"red"] "I have yet many things to say to you, but ye are not able to bear [them] now; " [/] John 16:12 YLT

If this was true of Jesus' disciples, who were more than superficially desirous of serving Him, how much more true it would be for those who wished to destroy Jesus' message to a falling (human)race, or perhaps at the very least still antagonistic because of an Unknown they were afraid of because of poor discipleship by some, trying to show a loving God while still fearing condemnation in their own failures.

[:"red"] "God did not send his Son into the world to condemn it, but to save it." [/] John 3:17 NLT

We usually sense condemnation when we perceive that we're OK people that have no need of change or repentance, and therefore resent the Word that tells us that all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags which excludes us from Paradise unless willing to meet the change ungrudgingly, by a God that treats everyone justly, not just the "good" people.

[:"red"] "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God" [/]

Matthew 19:17 KJV

[:"red"] "

For being ignorant of the righteousness that God ascribes [which makes one acceptable to Him in word, thought, and deed] and seeking to establish a righteousness (a means of salvation) of their own, they did not obey or submit themselves to God's righteousness." [/] Romans 10:3 AMP

Keep the faith, literally!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Richard,

If there were no Holy Spirit I could understand what you're saying. However, I thank God He didn't leave the protecting of His word to us nor the interpretation to us.

Everything meaningful that I have learned and experienced in my life has come by the Holy Spirit. I take the Bible literally and it all makes sense to me (through the Holy Spirit). It has made a change in my life and the life of those whom I share truth with. Poeple have given their life to God and been baptized, I hate no one but love instead. I live my life according to God's will. I am not a perfect man but let Him work in me what He desires through the truth that I learn from the Bible and SOP. For me to change and adopt a non literal view of the Bible would destroy me and totally confuse those who know me.

So I cannot accept what you believe into my mind or heart. I respect your choice, but for me: I could have never experienced the changes I have in my life or help others, by believing and teaching a non literal view of the Bible. The fruit speaks for itself and I only see it getting better, why would I work against the work of the Holy Spirit in my life?

Norman

[Bravus]

LHC, I have no beef with literalists, at all: I do not condemn them in their literalist beliefs, at all. Some days I even envy them their certainty. What I have a beef with is when they condemn me for my beliefs. I do not accept their condemnation, and my comment to David was just noting that I'd predicted that condemnation and, sure enough, it arrived. I am not placing myself in any way superior to literalists, or in judgement of them. All I'm saying (and that with no great degree of certainty) is that the strictest forms of lietalism are not for me. And yet this is what I'm subjected to:

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Suzanne wrote: The incidences mentioned in Hebrews 11 all actually occurred or the Bible is a lie. And we know that that is not true. Indeed the Old Testament covers several chapters delving into the account of Abraham and Sarah and the various other accounts. If they were not real people, WE are not real people, its simple as that.

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And David got basically insulted as asking 'foolish and unlearned questions'.

If literalists would live and let live among other believers, all our lives would be happier and more harmonious.

Once again, I have no beef with their literalism, I have a beef with their attacks on my non-literalism.

[LifeHiscost]

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Bravus said:

Once again, I have no beef with their literalism, I have a beef with their attacks on my non-literalism.

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Thank you for your explanation, Bravus. I'm satisfied you have the freedom to believe the non-literal view, without condemnation. However it does seem important to me to recognize God's injunctions for the believer to publish the good news as if it were as real as God makes it appear to be, without being condemned by the non-literalist as if he/she (the literalist) were causing the guilty conscience caused by the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

[:"red"] "And go, get thee to them of the captivity, unto the children of thy people, and speak unto them, and tell them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; whether they will hear, or whether they will forbear." [/] Ezekiel 3:11 KJV

Peace!

[David_McQueen]

Norman, thank you for clarity on your point. In retropsect I should have asked for you to clear it up, before you did in your second post.

Whilst I understand the concern or weak/strong Christians I think it expedient to be quite frank in our discussion of this. For me it does not actually make that much a difference if all the characters were real or not, but I do. What I feel happens we get so worried about weaker Christians being thrown by such a subject but what a forum like this does is open an opportunity for such people weaker in the faith to delve deeper and discuss the subject more.

The focal point for me on such a subject matter is how do we discuss as Christians of whatever persuasion on a subject like this. Surely there has to be a cord (literal/contextual) which binds us to the theme of Hebrews 11 and what the writer is aiming to convey here?

[Robert]

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It makes far more sense to see the Bible for what it is. A collection of oral tradition, modfied through the ages to meet the needs of the communities it served.

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• "All scripture is inspired by God" 2 Tim 3:16

  "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor 2:14

  Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20,21

[there buster]

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Surely there has to be a cord (literal/contextual) which binds us to the theme of Hebrews 11 and what the writer is aiming to convey here?

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Do you see any indication in this chapter, or the rest of Hebrews, that that author does NOT consider these events literal?

[LifeHiscost]

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cardw said:

This literal understanding of the Bible is generally based on ignorance and an unwillingness to really look at all the evidence.

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[:"red"] "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. " [/] 1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB

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But this is a fear based approach to life, which, in itself, should provide strong evidence that this literal view is deeply flawed.

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[:"red"] "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." [/] 1 John 4:18 KJV

[:"red"] "But anyone who does not love does not know God--for God is love. "[/] 1 John 4:8 NLT

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A collection of oral tradition, modfied through the ages to meet the needs of the communities it served.

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[:"red"] "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ..." [/] 2 Peter 1:16 KJV

[:"red"] "The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let each one who hears them say, "Come." Let the thirsty ones come--anyone who wants to. Let them come and drink the water of life without charge.

And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. And if anyone removes any of the words of this prophetic book, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book." [/] Rev 22:17-19 NLT

[:"red"] But whoever takes a drink of the water that I will give him shall never, no never, be thirsty any more. But the water that I will give him shall become a spring of water welling up (flowing, bubbling) [continually] within him unto (into, for) eternal life. [/] John 4:14 AMP

[:"red"] "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; " [/] John 5:39 NASB

[David_McQueen]

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Ed Dickerson said:

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Surely there has to be a cord (literal/contextual) which binds us to the theme of Hebrews 11 and what the writer is aiming to convey here?

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Do you see any indication in this chapter, or the rest of Hebrews, that that author does NOT consider these events literal?

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Well maybe not. But then the same could be said about creation and the fall in Genesis. Or whether Satan actually came into God's presence in the book of Job.

The thing is some of us will look at it differently but isnt it more important that we look at the message rather than the mode of delivery