Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted August 18, 2013 Members Share Posted August 18, 2013 Since God created the Garden of Eden, including the solar system, the air, plants, animals, humans, and dirt - it *does* seem logical that a part of God (as the Creator of everything) was in each thing He created... Even a fingerprint needs an object for it's placement... (I'm not trying to say that we ought to be worshipping rocks and trees and skies and seas... but I *am* thinking that there is more to nature than organic chemistry...) Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted August 18, 2013 Members Share Posted August 18, 2013 I agree Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A. Wintsmith Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 I have been accused of being a pantheist by those who don't understand the distinction between perceiving the Creative Source in all of creation VS. worshiping creation. One doesn't have to worship rocks and trees to celebrate the common life force that connects us to the planet. To feel a profound connection with creation is to connect with the Creator. Not all who do so identify or acknowledge the creator in the same terms but it is my opinion that one cannot love creation without on some level connecting with the Source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 hmmmmm........I wonder if there is a distinction between "the force" and "pantheism"? I am sure there is, but twould be of iinterest what others thought..... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted August 19, 2013 Members Share Posted August 19, 2013 Interesting thoughts dgrimm Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Is God "master scientist" or ?? In other words - is it His power and knowledge that produces that creation - or is it God Himself changing into some something? In the Pantheistic view - God Himself is somehow changing into tree, or rock, or cloud -- (a part of Him) - but the Bible model seems to be more along the lines of One God in THREE persons - where God is master scientist, who by knowledge and power is able to create what He wills. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted August 19, 2013 Author Members Share Posted August 19, 2013 isn't it possible that God the Creator could leave a trace of Himself in whatever he created? I think of the phrase, "by the breath of His mouth"... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted August 19, 2013 Moderators Share Posted August 19, 2013 I'm probably panentheist rather than pantheist - considering this universe, and possibly many others, to be contained within an infinite God. God is immanent and transcendant - through every particle of the universe, and greater than it. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 So, in essence, panentheism is equivialent to "the Force", a supernatural essence that binds and holds everything together without personality...where as pantheism is God and His personality is in nature....interesting.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 Coming at it from a different perspective, a Gwyddon one, is that everything in existence is a manifestation of the Divine All. It flows through everything. So yes its fingerprint is there from a subatomic level on up. That is not to say that any material substance should be worshiped, but all things are sacred and important. Each has its place in the All. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted August 19, 2013 Moderators Share Posted August 19, 2013 Not necessarily, no. The belief does not in itself opine on that issue. My own view, which is different from my panentheist view is that God, being infinite, contains all possibilities of personality. Not less than human but infinitely more. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Textus Receptus Posted August 19, 2013 Share Posted August 19, 2013 If memory services me correctly, I believe that John Harvey Kellogg was somewhat chastised by EGW and other pioneers for the similar logic. Then Kellogg spins his defining metaphor—the most quoted paragraph from The Living Temple [about the living boot]. http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/moon/moon-trinity2.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.A. Wintsmith Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 A living boot would not bring me to that conclusion at all (That there is a shoemaker in the boot). It would bring me to the conclusion that it was a machine which was designed to replicate itself. In a sense, such a machine may be less the creator of it because it is designed to continue without the creator's future involvement. As a person who lives and breathes to create, I leave upon this world expressions of my being. Someone who reads my books or examines my drawings may experience profoundly the sense of who I am and may feel a connection to me. In a sense, I am what I create because it came from me. These things are me, and an experience of me can be accessed through them. But I am more that what I have created, more than what I will yet create. It is through creating that I have a sense of God as the Master Creator. He is in all these things that He has created in the sense that creators always are contained in what they create, and He may be experienced and accessed through them. But He is more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Textus Receptus Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 I am sorry, but you have mistaken - we has humans create nothing. The occult has the belief that since we "can create" life, through procreation, we must be gods. It is 101 Masonic philosophy. Only God can create. Procreation and Creation are not synonymus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Where then do music, art, poetry, inventions of all kind come from? Someone creates them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Textus Receptus Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Good question. I was speaking more to the fact that God's gift of life allows us to have dominion over our thoughts and the world. Without Him, none of the things you mentioned would be a possibility. All that we do is from God whether we believe it or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Ok. What I think D.A. was trying to say was that when a person "creates" a piece of music, a work of art, a piece of writing etc. they imbue it with a bit of their own spirit. Further more any person that plays that piece of music, does a reading of a story or poem imbues it with a bit of their own spirit. Even where a person chooses to display a piece of art, how they frame it etc does that. So it would be with all things. If each thing is a manifestation of the Divine, a creation set in motion, then it seems fairly obvious that the spirit of the Creator would be in each thing right down to a cellular level. But since each thing develops on its own and is influenced by its experience it becomes a unique thing to its own existence. I would personally disagree that we have dominion over anything other than our own existence. We have no dominion over whether there is a rock slide, an earthquake, a flood. We do not control how trees or grass grow no matter how hard we try.The creatures of the wild do not recognize us as being anything other than a threat the same as we view some of them. The only way we manage to have any dominion over them is with weapons. Alone we have nothing. The charge of your Bible is to be good stewards - that means to care for and help, not control. I would somewhat agree with you that without the Divine we can do nothing. For it is the thumbprint of the Divine in us that gives us and all things life. It has also given us the gift of inspiration and creativity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 >>>It is 101 Masonic philosophy. REALLY???? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Well..... at least its not Jesuit 101. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Textus Receptus Posted August 20, 2013 Share Posted August 20, 2013 Albert Mackey's The Symbolism of Freemasonry Chapter 15 explains this concept quite well. http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/sof/sof17.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted August 22, 2013 Administrators Share Posted August 22, 2013 when we express ourselves in music, art mediums, oils, water colors, paper, ink, pastels, clay, even mobiles, or design of functional things that have an added form for no reason bu aesthetics, when we produce meaningful poetry or prose or stories, when we perform instruments, dance, vocals, all of these things are forms of creativity, preserving and passing onto others qualities of humanity that serve to bless, enrich and deepens peoples sense of what it means to be a human being. God speaks through nature, through providence, and the scripture, and the still small voice, and through the light that comes from Him that is expressed by other human beings. when i say people create, i am not suggesting that they invent or generate new life, no, but they do express themselves and produce communication, and share their lives with others, and this is so valuable and important. God is giving and sharing with all of his creative ability, and gives us this privilege also. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted August 22, 2013 Members Share Posted August 22, 2013 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I agree with this. All the things you listed are forms of communication, or iows, forms of expression. That isn't creation in the strictest meaning of the word. It's a God-given talent though to produce those types of things. A human must use existing materials to produce art of any kind, whether that be paint, the materials to make a musical instrument, paper, woods, metals, etc.... We cannot create something from nothing as God can. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted August 25, 2013 Administrators Share Posted August 25, 2013 God speaking things into existence, something from nothing, is also given to mankind. It may be one of the things that separates us from other creatures. We think and imagine things never seen before, heard before. Every creation begins with an idea. Those thoughts/ideas come from nothing in a material sense. We give expression to them in many forms and media, but often they remain immaterial as spoken or sung gifts we give to others. Those ideas are in us and once expressed a part of us lives on in them with each repeating. Not disputing that as a mode of God's creativity, but he also does create much working with the substance and materials he finds. The Genesis story speaks of the materials he started with for this earth. Man was formed of mud, the elements of the earth. Transforming materials into something new and different is very much a creative gift from God. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted August 25, 2013 Administrators Share Posted August 25, 2013 Great discussion! Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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