Pagan holidays in our church:

[Gail]

People with different ideas on doctrine for one thing. People that only complain about what see in the Church, in the members, in leadership, in our schools, etc.

Lots of folks walking in the garden and instead of picking the roses, the lillies, the pinks are caught up in the thorns, brush and bramble all around them. Dividing those members of the body into a group here and there, gossiping and such.

It's OK if you can see this kind of action as an opportunity for growth, to rise above the petty differences, to set an example for a better way to be a Christian. I don't always get that part right, but I'm working on it and Gods grace is sufficient.

[rev184]

Ya I catch the gossip those persons always go out to eat on the sabbath and that person is always shopping on the sabbath. And that person does drugs and that person listings to secular rock n roll. Or that person is going to SDR but the church is where they need to be.its like should a alcoholic go to AA um probably ya. eventually the supernatural sanctification of the Spirit pulls them away from the worldly things and the traditions of man.

As individuals you will have worldly stuff .what I meant is the church as the body why is the worldly found their. Of course the individuals that make up the body are going to vary, some defenders of some opposed of etc. but like typology in Ezekiel getting marked those who sighed or cried over the laxness verses those who went along with it. Judgment starts with the people of God. Should we be ok going out to restaurants on sabbath such as conference? Or the worlds holy days (holidays) . Go along with it our sigh about it?

[Kevin H]

rev184, I know that there is a danger of syncretism, but there is a balance that we need to maintain. Did you look at the information I shared about the recent discoveries on how we actually got Jesus' birth connected to December 25? And did you get a chance to check out the references that I gave? Also, we have the issue that the feasts of the land that we find in the Bible were the feasts that the Canaanite Baal worshipers kept related to the agriculture of that piece of property. Thus we have the Bible having the pagan feasts. I would like your thoughts on these issues.

[rev184]

Well I think my thoughts are still stuck in the old info, but yes I have Kevin H and I find it very interesting but not surprising, Israel had a knack for that sort of thing as for the the heathen origin of the sabbaths that shadowed Christ that remains odd to me. What say you about this light? EGW ADVENTIST HOME CH.77

For the very same purpose He has concealed the precise day of Christ’s birth, that the day should not receive the honor that should be given to Christ as the Redeemer of the world—one to be received, to be trusted, to be relied on as He who could save to the uttermost all who come unto Him. The soul’s adoration should be given to Jesus as the Son of the infinite God.1The Review and Herald, December 9, 1884.

Side note The world-and separate from the above.

There is nothing in the Bible about the death of Nimrod, but the ancient traditions suggest that he died a violent death. One tradition says that he was killed by a wild animal. Another says that Shem killed him because he had led the people into the worship of Baal.His wife-mother, Semiramis, who had risen to greatness on his account, was not going to disappear into obscurity because of his death. Instead she pronounced him to be a god, so that she herself became a goddess. She produced another son, and proclaimed him to be the resurrected Nimrod. This was not difficult, because she was so promiscuous she produced many children whose father could not be identified. She proclaimed that she had gone down to the world of the dead, rescued Nimrod and brought him back.Thus began the worship of Semiramis and the child-god, and the whole paraphanalia of the Babylonian religious system.

http://www.annomundi.com/bible/christmas.htm

She claimed a full-grown evergreen tree sprang overnight from a dead tree stump, which symbolized the springing forth unto new life the dead Nimrod. On each anniversary of his birth, she claimed, Nimrod would visit the evergreen tree and leave gifts upon it. December 25th was the birthday of Nimrod. This is the real origin of the Christmas tree. Through her scheming and designing, Semiramis became the Baby Babylonian "Queen of Heaven," and Nimrod, under various names, became the "divine son of heaven." After her death, Semiramis was worshipped as the "Queen of Heaven", and Nimrod, under various names, became the "divine son of heaven". 

http://www.amightywind.com/hanukkah/truthchristmas2.htm

[olger]

rev184, I know that there is a danger of syncretism, but there is a balance that we need to maintain. Did you look at the information I shared about the recent discoveries on how we actually got Jesus' birth connected to December 25? And did you get a chance to check out the references that I gave? Also, we have the issue that the feasts of the land that we find in the Bible were the feasts that the Canaanite Baal worshipers kept related to the agriculture of that piece of property. Thus we have the Bible having the pagan feasts. I would like your thoughts on these issues.

Where do you come up with these weird clandestine ideas, Kevin. You have been doing it for decades.

[Gregory Matthews]

The idea that the Isrealites borowed Canaanite feasts and placed their own symbolism on them has been around for years. You can google <Canaanite feasts> and find both support and challenges to this idea.

I am not going to do either.

The same has been said for Egyptian religious practices. On sopme level this may be accurate. If so, the questions then are: What level? So what? What does it all mean.

In any case, Kevin is not alone in his thinking.

However, I would not be willing to say that the Bible has pagan feasts.

[phkrause]

The idea that the Isrealites borowed Canaanite feasts and placed their own symbolism on them has been around for years. You can google <Canaanite feasts> and find both support and challenges to this idea.

I am not going to do either.

The same has been said for Egyptian religious practices. On sopme level this may be accurate. If so, the questions then are: What level? So what? What does it all mean.

In any case, Kevin is not alone in his thinking.

However, I would not be willing to say that the Bible has pagan feasts.

Gregory I've heard that from a few preachers during my years as a SDA. Doesn't EGW say something to this? You probably have read the SOP more than I have, not sure but I thought that came from her!

[Gregory Matthews]

I will say a bit more on this subject:

As I said in an earlier post, every day in the standard year is the thought by Hindus to be the birthday of a large number of Hindu gods and goddesses. IOW, if one wishes to do so, one can allege a pagan background to every day to the standard year to include every Sabbath.

But, that fact does not make the Biblical Sabbath a pagan worship day.

I acknowledge that one might say in this case that the Sabbath came first and the Hindu celebration came second.

But, as certain feast days of Israel, one would have to say that if accurate, the pagan association was prior to that of Israel.

I have just turned to the 23rd chapter of Leviticus where I have read of the feast days mentioned in that chapter. The impression that I have is that a totally different perspective was given by Israel. The Biblical fest days, even if there was a prior pagan background, have that aspect stripped out and a totally new perspective in given in the Bible.

It is in the same sense that I am not as concerned with what one might say is the background of something today as I am with the actual associations that are given to it today.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Gregory I've heard that from a few preachers during my years as a SDA. Doesn't EGW say something to this? You probably have read the SOP more than I have, not sure but I thought that came from her!

I do not recall her comments on this subject and I have not attempted to check it out.

My comments come from other sources.

In any case, There are Adventist scholars who see some relationships as I have suggested. However, I believe that they would say that that as practiced by Israel, the pagan was stripped away and Israel gave them a new perspective.

[Kevin H]

Exactly Gregory: In reading say the Ebla tablets, and other tablets from the ancient world, some where the cities were already in ruins by Abraham's time, we see the feast days they were celebrating. How they had the day of atonement in the fall with the two goats, etc. At college it was pointed out that their court systems all had an "investigative judgment" as part of the process.

Anyway the feasts dealt with the different aspects in the agricultural cycle for that part of the world. (Which is one reason why as Christianity spread to the whole world the feasts of the land was not a major component. While we can learn a lot by studying and respecting the feasts, unlike the Sabbath which was universal, these feasts were very local)

[rev184]

Col. 2 - 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (KJV)

these sabbath days are feasts. They are a shadow of things to come, even the day of atonement was a picture of our dear Creator Savior. A shadow of Him.

and if i'm reading correctly their are some that suggest or believe these to be of canaanite or other heathen origin, (even though had to come from a pollution of Noah's childrens childrens childrens(whole other niphilem type post I think)). To say that the heathen had the picture of Christ before the chosen people is stretching it a little wouldn't you say?

Is the definition of syncretism?

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Exactly Gregory:

Kevin, I am always glad to see someone agrees with me.

REv184: Any concept that the pagans might have of God would be highly corrupted.

[Kevin H]

The Canaanites did have a lot of truth, but became horribly corrupted. They came to believe that they needed to help out the gods of life; and they believed that the way to help them out was through uniting life forces, i.e. in worship they would blend textiles of different types, blend different grains, and everyone would be involved in an orgy, including with their children and taking their neighbor's children and giving their children to their neighbors, and also including the animals. They would also cut themselves, sacrifice others and rape strangers. All of these were seen as helping out the god's of life, who they saw as indifferent towards them, but if the gods of life win they can still benefit.

The Bible spells out that Yahweh did not want any of that stuff involved in his worship. Since they were living in the land where these celebrations were related to the milestones of the agriculture and telling them when to do what for their fields, and since the little children would see the Canaanites celebrating these seasons, God let them remember the same time to assist them in their work for the agriculture, but gave major prohibitions and used the symbols to point towards the plan of salvation and that instead of helping the gods of life, that the Hebrews were to rest and know that Yahweh loved them and their job was to rest in his love.

[FLO]

Other than Halloween none of those are pagan holidays. Even Halloween as we now celebrate it is not a pagan holiday.

Christmas, Easter and Halloween are definitely pagan Holidays.

With Easter they even forgot to change the name of the Holiday to something Christian.

Easter is the name of the pagan goddess of fertility. Not exactly what you want to

call the most important event in the history of the planet (Jesus' death and resurrection).

I've done extensive research on the Christmas and Easter they can be found on my websites below:

www.EasterTruth.info

and

www.ChristmasTruth.info

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: M. T. Cross

Other than Halloween none of those are pagan holidays. Even Halloween as we now celebrate it is not a pagan holiday.

Christmas, Easter and Halloween are definitely pagan Holidays.

With Easter they even forgot to change the name of the Holiday to something Christian.

Easter is the name of the pagan goddess of fertility. Not exactly what you want to

call the most important event in the history of the planet (Jesus' death and resurrection).

I've done extensive research on the Christmas and Easter they can be found on my websites below:

www.EasterTruth.info

and

www.ChristmasTruth.info

And if you go through the thread very slowly you will see that I also said that yes, as Christianity spread, many people incorporated the local cultural customs into the Christian celebrations that were very similiar. So Easter as a Celebration of Christs resurrection and Ostara a Germanic celebration of rebirth - very similar. If your research was as extensive as you say then you would realize that most cultures around the world had a spring celebration. So the western celebration of Easter has some Germanic qualities to it. If you want to get technical then, your Sabbath is on Saturday which is named after the God Saturn. Are worshiping him then? Wednesday Thursday and Friday are named after Pagan Gods as well......... possibly everyone should throw up their hands and panic about that as well.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

Exactly Gregory:

REv184: Any concept that the pagans might have of God would be highly corrupted.

WOW.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Christmas, Easter and Halloween are definitely pagan Holidays.

Only if you celebrate them as such.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Any concept that the pagans might have of God would be highly corrupted.

ANY concept? That's a little over the top. Gregory. Maybe SOME concepts. I would add that some concepts that some professing pagans and most Christians have about pagan gods are highly corrupted; and some of the ideas professing Christians (including SDAs) have about their own God are highly corrupted.

I must confess that at times, I have placed myself in the last category; but I'm learning as I grow.

[Textus Receptus]

Quote:

Christmas, Easter and Halloween are definitely pagan Holidays.

Only if you celebrate them as such.

Really? This is the same excuse that Catholicism uses to rationalize their pagan incrustations. God is not fooled.

"It is interesting to note how often our Church has availed herself of practices which were in common use among pagans...Thus it is true, in a certain sense, that some Catholic rites and ceremonies are a reproduction of those of pagan creeds...." (The Externals of the Catholic Church, Her Government, Ceremonies, Festivals, Sacramentals and Devotions, by John F. Sullivan, p 156, published by P.J. Kennedy, NY, 1942)

"It has often been charged... that Catholicism is overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism is ready to accept that accusation - and even to make it her boast... the great god Pan is not really dead, he is baptized" -The Story of Catholicism p 37

Cardinal Newman admits in his book that; the "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison [Note 17], are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church. {374}" -An Essay on the The Development of the Christian Doctrine John Henry "Cardinal Newman" p.359

[ClubV12]

Great discussion, up next, wedding rings! :)

[Gail]

Great discussion, up next, wedding rings!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

oh. come. on.

Pagans eat. So do Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Jews use candles in celebrations. So do witches. So do Christians. (not sure about Muslims)

Christians pray. So do Jews, and Muslims, and many Pagans.

"Thursday" is "Thor's Day" or "Donnerstag" (Thunder/Thor day) -- the days of the week are named for gods

etc. etc. etc.

The point is, if Christians do/say/abide by anything remotely related to any other beliefs or norms of any other societal or religious construct, does that mean Christians subscribe to the beliefs of those? Or that everyone else subscribes to the beliefs of Christians?

Hardly.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

The point is, if Christians do/say/abide by anything remotely related to any other beliefs or norms of any other societal or religious construct, does that mean Christians subscribe to the beliefs of those? Or that everyone else subscribes to the beliefs of Christians?

Great question, Pam! In spite of my participation in this thread, it is a total non-issue for me; as is wedding rings (jewelry in general, actually), make-up, vegetarianism, and gays in the church. Why can't we just make Father, Son, and Spirit the issues? If we all focused to know God's heart for us, all of these non-essential issues would go away.

Like I'm EVER going to believe I'm gonna burn for giving my kids Christmas gifts, Easter baskets, and taking them trick-or-treating? Ain't ever gonna happen.

[M. T. Cross]

oh. come. on.

Pagans eat. So do Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Jews use candles in celebrations. So do witches. So do Christians. (not sure about Muslims)

Christians pray. So do Jews, and Muslims, and many Pagans.

"Thursday" is "Thor's Day" or "Donnerstag" (Thunder/Thor day) -- the days of the week are named for gods

etc. etc. etc.

The point is, if Christians do/say/abide by anything remotely related to any other beliefs or norms of any other societal or religious construct, does that mean Christians subscribe to the beliefs of those? Or that everyone else subscribes to the beliefs of Christians?

Hardly.

Great post. Ummm... but Thor is a God as well.

[phkrause]

If you want to get technical then, your Sabbath is on Saturday which is named after the God Saturn. Are worshiping him then? Wednesday Thursday and Friday are named after Pagan Gods as well......... possibly everyone should throw up their hands and panic about that as well.

Actually MT the 7th day was already here before the days were named!