Landmark survey reveals in-depth beliefs, perceptions of Adventist members

[olger]

Where IS the verse that says that homosexual acts are within the will of God?

i can't find it..

[Enabled]

I personally don't trust any spirit that disagrees with a clear statement from the word. Best to try every spirit according to the Law and the Testimony lest one be deceived by ones own feelings or a spirit of another sort. The Lord God in heaven has appointed his WORD as a guardian of the heart, a protector of character and safeguard of his children. By His spirit he speaks to his children through His WORD and not apart from it. "Let this mind (spirit) be in you that was in Christ Jesus" and you will stand in the city, which is the true church.

As in the all American game you can use the bat to bring yourself and 3 others home, or you can go around clobbering the other players and then the umpire. Both are in the game but only one who plays according to the rules of a Christ centered life will see our heavenly home.

Happy Sabbath

[Gail]

I have found that God leads me on gently. What happens when man corrects others differently, I don't know. We all could use lessons on that from Jesus

[JoeMo]

Just to clarify - IMO being attracted to the same gender is one thing - and acting it out is quite another; just like being tempted to lie to get out of an uncomfortable situation is one thing - actually lying is another. Temptation is never a sin - Christ was tempted. Acting on that temptation is the sin. I'm not judging anyone here; I'm just saying that we can't say one sin is greater than another as far as God is concerned; and it should be the same way in the church.

[ClubV12]

If you were called to testify for your faith in a court of law, you would be directed to answer the question, "yes" or "no".

It's a simple question:

Is homosexuality a sin? A very serious question. There is mercy, there is also justice. God will not be trifled with over this issue and Sodom stands as testimony to that.

Olger recently posted this from Ted Wilson, it bears repeating.

“There are those in the church and outside the church who wish to change the very beliefs we have held sacred and change the character of the Seventh-day Adventist Church itself – people who want to turn the grace of God into something vile thus denying Jesus Himself, even though they pretend to lift up His name,” Wilson warned. “As we communicate truth to those who do not know Christ, we must guard against the world entering the church, [and] neutralizing its mission.”

Wilson pointed to changing social attitudes toward homosexuality as an illustration of the abandonment of Biblical teaching: “The acquiescence to homosexuality that is pervading so many societies today is nothing more than the old immorality of Sodom and Gomorrah that is in complete opposition to God’s Holy Word and, according to the Bible, will result in not receiving eternal life for those who reject God’s loving and saving efforts to turn them away from sinful behavior.”

[kailooa]

Ted Wilson is not my god. We do not have a spiritual hierarchy in the Adventist church--no pope, no one person who can claim special wisdom or direct word from God. His words carry no specific weight with me.

Olger asks where is the verse that says homosexual acts are within the will of God. I would venture that this is a strange question. Where is the verse that says that drinking chocolate milk is within the will of God? How about playing the piano? Driving a car? Not everything we do must be explicitly condoned in the Bible.

As for the verses that supposedly condemn homosexuality, there are several possible interpretations for each of those verses--including the Sodom and Gomorrah story that good old Ted Wilson brandishes in his contemptuous attack posted above--and I know that if you were truly interested in understanding alternate viewpoints you would research those yourselves. I am not here to convince you of anything. It is enough for me that I have my own relationship with God and the Bible. My relationships with his self-proclaimed followers are at times more troublesome, because there seems to be no room for loving disagreement. I continue to mourn the attitude of exclusion and condemnation that supplants lovingkindness in the SDA church. I am saddened to see so much of it here.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Where is the verse that says that drinking chocolate milk is within the will of God? How about playing the piano? Driving a car? Not everything we do must be explicitly condoned in the Bible.

"If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?

Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense either to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God;"1 Corinthians 10:30-32 NASB

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them."Leviticus 20:13 NASB

I would suppose if one thinks God changed His mores when He came to this earth as a man, one could think differently. However when taking this Word below into consideration, I don't think God changing is a safe consideration.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."Hebrews 13:8 NASB

"...and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness."1 Corinthians 10:2-5 NASB

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

I have found that God leads me on gently. What happens when man corrects others differently, I don't know. We all could use lessons on that from Jesus

God cares!

[Enabled]

I would agree the LORD is gentle but will we allow him to define gentle. He sent his angels in the following to see if the report he had of the city was so and what did he find, how did he react.

Quote:

Gen 19:15 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

Gen 19:16 And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city.

Gen 19:17 And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

Thus they were gently led. Yet we are told Lots delay (tarried) caused the loss of his wife. Led by the hand of Angels, not by the firmly set mind of a servant but like a child and a loss of much because of this little flaw in his character. We are told in the preceding verses that the whole city both young and old came out to "know them" just as Adam knew Eve. For this reason God said they were wicked and worthy of destruction. We must love as the Angels did, but let us be careful lest we go up in smoke as the general population did. With fire disease is purged that it may not spread yet the physician tried everything else first, including allowing a righteous man (Lot)to dwell in their midst at risk to him and his family yet to no avail.

Happy Sabbath

[ClubV12]

Thou shalt not disrespect the leader of your people, so upon learning that the man Paul had just insulted was the High Priest, he apologized.

I thank God for Ted Wilson and the courage he expresses to warn the Church about the insidious nature of the LGBT groups.

God loves the suicide bomber too, so lets ignore the flying body parts and if the fellow survives, invite him to Church. He can't help it, he was born that way.

[CoAspen]

Accept all, love all without condoning the sin, and let the Holy Spirit convict.

Well said! Seems like that is an issue with in many conservative churches, including the SDA. For many, they hear 'love all but beat upon them mightily for I have been commissioned by the HS'! Any other 'sin' will not get the attention and page after page of posting like homosexuality. It really freaks out conservative christians. A few verses in the Bible on this subject garners the most attention. Gossip, fault finding, condemning, etc will never get the attention like that one word "sex"!

Interesting...ay.....

[kailooa]

CoAspen, so true. So sad, but so true.

ClubV12, your communication style can be a bit vague, but it appears that you may be warning me against disrespecting a leader? I didn't say anything negative about Ted Wilson. Go look. I don't know anything about the man, really. But I disagree with his words that were quoted here.

Also, to compare homosexuals with suicide bombers is, to me, too ludicrous to respond to seriously. Sorry.

LifeHisCost, you gave me a good laugh with that collection of verses about drinking chocolate milk. Thanks. I think you may have missed my point, though.

If you all went back and read the story (actually stories, it's mentioned more than once) of Sodom and Gomorrah, leaving aside all that you've been taught and told about what it's "about," you would find that an astounding number of your assumptions have been added in by others. But again, I'm not here to convince others. And I'm not here to say I possess any special truth. I am merely a seeker.

Finally, I'm not one to beat people over the head with Bible verses. But if you are interested in looking at the story of Sodom and Gomorrah again, here is something to contemplate: http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/16-49.htm

[ClubV12]

"Ted Wilson is not my god. We do not have a spiritual hierarchy in the Adventist church--no pope, no one person who can claim special wisdom or direct word from God. His words carry no specific weight with me."

So I won't be vague, the above words strike me as being disrespectful. The warning stands to all, be careful how you speak about the leader of your people.

As it concerns the sinister nature of the LGBT group and their influence on society and this Church, the actions of a suicide bomber are LESS dangerous! A suicide bomber may kill many, the LGBT groups are putting the entire Church and this Nation at risk. Just as they did in the days of Sodom.

Christians, right now, are being persecuted, sued, their business' closed, military personel are being disciplined, kids in school are facing threats of discipline, because SOME people "get it". They refuse to bow the knee to gay marriage, to Church membership, to the LGBT agenda which is being FORCED on society.

How far will it have to go before people "get it"? Before the state takes your rental property because you refuse to rent to LGBT's? Takes your Minister license because you refuse to marry an LGBT couple? Kicks you out of the military because you refuse an order relating to LGBT that violates your conscience? Before you see your neighbors forced to move because they stood up for their Christian beliefs and lost their job, lost their home over an LGBT issue?

Ted Wilson is TRYING to warn the Church!

[CoAspen]

I reckon one always has to have an enemy to stir up the troops! Thankfully the Church of Christ does not need any enemy for the people to find solace and trust in God, it seems He is the savior! If God be for us than who can be we be afraid of? Those who live in fear may well die in fear because they can not see hope.

The Gay issue is but the latest in a long line of peoples to fear or being blamed for all the ills of the world. History tells us much about that.

I find such fear mongering exactly the opposite of what God has asked of us, as followers of Him. God brings good news, while some of His followers constantly find bad news.

[ClubV12]

"...while some of His followers constantly find bad news."

So Ted Wilson should speak only of those things which tickle your ears and are smooth sayings to your soul?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

LifeHisCost, you gave me a good laugh with that collection of verses about drinking chocolate milk. Thanks. I think you may have missed my point, though.

I thought your point was, not everything that is allowed has a specific text to indicate that particular item/s. The text indicating that if it doesn't bring glory to God, it would seem to cover that.

Take for instance the invention of the automobile. While the auto doesn't seem to be mentioned specifically by name, it is a known fact there were over 32,000 deaths by auto accident in the U.S. in 2011. Do you imagine that death toll brings glory to God?

True a lot of people have benefited from the use of the auto.

But the question once was posed that if a genie had promised to bring to pass a machine that would move as fast as the wind, bring innumerable benefits to mankind, all that was asked by the genie was that a sacrifice of 17,000 lives per year be brought to his alter, would the auto ever have gotten off the ground? So if the requirement wouldn't make sense for the genie, why would God be honored in its' production?

Man continues to prove himself incapable of planning his own future.

Even so, come Lord Jesus.

God cares!

[olger]

Just to clarify - IMO being attracted to the same gender is one thing - and acting it out is quite another; just like being tempted to lie to get out of an uncomfortable situation is one thing - actually lying is another. Temptation is never a sin - Christ was tempted. Acting on that temptation is the sin. I'm not judging anyone here; I'm just saying that we can't say one sin is greater than another as far as God is concerned; and it should be the same way in the church.

We can say that sin leads to death.

[ClubV12]

How many lives were saved by the automobile? Just wonderin'... One BIG reason for the automobile in cities was pollution. Horse pollution, they leave a pretty big mess as they travel about. It was becoming a major health issue.

Then again, I can't say God was glorified by man building cities in the first place! :)

[kailooa]

Yeah, the fearmongering doesn't really work for me either, CoAspen. I suppose it's a difference in temperament that allows some folks to be energized by focusing on their perceived enemies, while others are not.

I can see that the vast differences in mindset will render this discussion impotent. But before I go, I want to clarify that I meant no disrespect in my remarks about Ted Wilson. I meant only to speak plainly and directly about the fact that in Protestant religions, there is no intermediary between each individual person and God. Ted Wilson must be a very good business manager to have been promoted to function as, essentially, the CEO of church operations. That does not mean, to me, that he possesses special spiritual insight that is more significant than my own relationship with God. I'm a bit confused as to how pointing this out is disrespectful.

[ClubV12]

It would be unethical and even ILLEGAL for a CEO to tell the stock holders in his company that everything is going great, just keep on investing, all is well. No different than a leader of this Church. He is obligated to address issues that threaten the well being of the "company". I concur with his sound advice to the "stock holders", the business is being threatened, it's at risk and he lays out what those risks are. What the stock holders can do to save the company.

He would be irresponsible if he didn't do this. Obviously some will see it differently. Perhaps the next leader of the company will publish and talk about only those good things that leave the people with the idea that everything is all right. No worries, just keep on investing. And the people rose up to play...

Korah, in his rebellion against Moses declared that all the people were holy, every one of them. They didn't need to listen to the advice of the leader,,, appointed by God over them. They didn't need to respect Moses anymore than the next guy. They could figure out for themselves what needed to be done, how the camp should be run.

[Gerr]

As for the verses that supposedly condemn homosexuality, there are several possible interpretations for each of those verses--including the Sodom and Gomorrah story that good old Ted Wilson brandishes in his contemptuous attack posted above--and I know that if you were truly interested in understanding alternate viewpoints you would research those yourselves. I am not here to convince you of anything. It is enough for me that I have my own relationship with God and the Bible. My relationships with his self-proclaimed followers are at times more troublesome, because there seems to be no room for loving disagreement. I continue to mourn the attitude of exclusion and condemnation that supplants lovingkindness in the SDA church. I am saddened to see so much of it here.

Aren't you confusing hatred for the sin as hatred for the sinner?

Maybe I'm missing something, so I'd like to hear what the alternative interpretations are to these texts:

ESV | ý1 Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

ESV | ýLe 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Is homosexuality a sin?

It's not my call - it's God's. He knows the heart; all I see is the behavior. Is a non-practicing gay still gay? Is that a sin? Sorry, this is not a court of law; and even if it were, my response to the question would be that I am not qualified to answer that question.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

...nor men who practice homosexuality,

Ahh ... the key word - "practice". IMO there is no way a non-practicing gay will be condemned for his/her homosexuality.

[ClubV12]

It's completely obvious that a practicing, actively open, gay lifestyle is a serious problem the Church MUST address. It is equally obvious that an active gay lifestyle is a serious biblical sin. This is not complicated.

The fact that so many wrestle with trying to figure this out is the very reason Ted Wilson needed to bring it up! This is not a gray area. It is calling sin by it's right name, being a watchman on the wall. Love the sinner, hate the sin? Applies equally to ALL open sin. Love the child molester, but I wouldn't advise letting him/her run the primary department. Love the active gay person, but he/she CANNOT be a Pastor,,, duh....

The Church is not to be "thought police", whatever your private temptations are, take that to God. It could be lust, coveting something, lieing, feeling attracted to the same sex, stealing, violating any of the ten. Rob a bank? You know, the Church IS going to have deal with that "open sin". THINK about robbing a bank? You need to take that to God.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church specifically forbids an active, open, gay lifestyle. It should not have to apologize for that, to members, to visitors, to the world. But the LGBT group will do their best to not only FORCE this Church to apologize, they will fight to make laws that result in such a position to be criminal behaviour. They will try to shut down Adventist business, our schools, institutions, even our Churches. Wake up man, how can you NOT see where this is headed? Get off the fence already!

[phkrause]

Quote:

Is homosexuality a sin?

It's not my call - it's God's. He knows the heart; all I see is the behavior. Is a non-practicing gay still gay?

Yes! Just like a alcoholic who is not drinking, is still an alcoholic! A drug addict who is not practicing doing drugs is still a drug addict. A non-practicing (put what you'd like here) is still what he's recovering from!