Landmark survey reveals in-depth beliefs, perceptions of Adventist members

[Bravus]

ClubV12 - you may well be projecting on to me, and shadow boxing, an antinomianism I don't believe and have never advocated.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

We love AND fear (literally) God as we grow, maybe your not there yet,.....

I have passed beyond fear, I am not afraid, are you? Is that the real issue in your life?

I will repeat God does not not want us to be afraid/fear Him! Do you fear your parents? Would you want your child to be afraid of you? Do you believe we are sons and daughter of God? What is your real fear??

[ClubV12]

I understand Bravus, I'm OK with that. Only eight got on the ark, only a few got out of Sodom. The Jews were slaughtered many times over in the course of their history for disobediance to God. Many are called...

As an Adventist I believe we are in the very last days of this earths history and the three angels messages cut right to the core. They are dreadful, horrific, deadly. For those of us who believe, we are COMPELLED to try to save others from certain doom.

I wish you the best in your beliefs my friend.

[ClubV12]

CoAspen, the word "fear" as used by the angel in Revelation is used in other places as well. It is right and proper to define it in different ways, dependant on time and place.

For the wicked there is only one definition, raw fear, terror, they are told they will be burned up, in the presence of the lamb and the Holy angels. Dreadful indeed is this angels message. It also applies to Laodecia, ALL Christians who claim to be Christians but do not do as instructed, "Keep the commandments of God". They will fare no better than the wicked.

For those striving to be more like Christ everyday the word "fear" could be defined as "respect", even "love". In this sense fear is not an evil thing, respect is also understanding how much God hates sin. The price, not only His son, but 6,000 years of suffering and agony. The cost is incalcuable, it is humbling, sanctifying, serious and fearful. God will not be trifled with, He is a God or mercy for without it, I would have no chance. He is also a God of judgment, the time we are living in right now and His judgments are fearful.

[Bravus]

Perfect love casts out fear

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

our eyes are focused on Jesus and what He has done for us.

Well said, but that's only half of the story.

"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."John 15:5 NASB

"...that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, so that we may present every man complete in Christ." Col 1:26-28 NASB

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"I am not like other people,robbers, evildoers, adulterers, people who need a written law..."

"O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day."Psalm 119:97 KJV

"Those who love Your law have great peace,

And nothing causes them to stumble."Psalm 119:165 NASB

God cares!

[Planey]

Uh, this thread is primarily about the gay agenda CoAspen. That was a major issue in the original post.

The original post was a link to a report in Seventh-day Adventist Church News.

The next post (a follow-on by the original poster Textus Receptus) was related to the whole article.

In that article, one sentence of 23 words was related to the "gay agenda". Out of a total of 1049 words overall.

I hardly think that qualifies as a "major issue". It seems, rather, to be the issue you chose to focus on.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The Jews were slaughtered many times over in the course of their history for disobediance to God.

Are you speaking of Biblical history or including modern history?

Were they 'slaughtered' because God choose that as punishment or because they did not follow the instructions their leader(God) had given them? Like not following the Generals plan into battle or deciding your president is incorrect and choosing to do something your country later regrets or is harmed by?

[ClubV12]

Both CoAspen, ancient as well as modern. And both, as it concerns the fate of the Jews. God directly intervening in an effort to wake them up. As in their captivity under Babylon, they learned to forsake the worship of idols. While thousands, possibly millions, died as well. God used the Babylons are His servants for correction. One could also see it as the inevitable result of their own (Jewish) actions. Our Lord does not always have to intervene directly, He may simply withdraw His protection and let "natural law" takes it course.

The Jewish peoples continue to live under the curse they declared on themself, His blood be on us and our children. That curse will never be lifted. History since Christ (and before) is filled with "holocausts" for the Israelites, another one is sure to come. Israel, as a country, is most assuredly doomed, it will burn, millions will be killed, again. Who will do it? Will it be a direct act of God? Will the laws of nature simply take their course? One possible scenario, the State Dept takes seriously, is war from a combined Islamic action. I agree because I see that in Daniel 11:45. Israel is toast, the forces of Islam will take it out.

When God withdraws His protection, to a person, people, nation, the forces of evil will be given more power. Those forces of evil are not nice. Mothers will eat their children, as happened when Jerusalem was burned in 70 AD. Not just the Jewish nation will suffer an unimaginable fate, it will happen to all those who have rejected Him.

Perfect love does indeed cast out all fear. A promise to believers, it does not apply to those who reject Christ. I understand the solemnity of life, I respect that, but I am not afraid of death, in this life. My "fear" concerns the second and eternal death. I place my hope on Him, the only possible escape for anyone.

[CoAspen]

Wow!!! So God used the Nazis as punishment! Your theology is not the same as the SDA church on that subject. Your view of God is not the same either. Your God is no different than those of ancient times or Greek mythology or any other heathen god of Biblical times! Obey me or I will kill you!! Are you sure about that?????

You say He removed protection, so evidently there is no 'rain' for the unjust?

[ClubV12]

Actually, my theology is in perfect harmony with the Adventist Church.

There are times when God takes an active roll in "disasters" or "blessings", we can't always know with precision when, where, how, Gods judgments have fallen or why. As to the Nazi's, I cannot say whether they were used as "servants" of God, simply the result of natural law (Nazis hated lots of different groups of people), the direct intervention of evil angels or the hand of God bringing punitive judgment on a people who cursed themselves.

What we do know:

Some judgments are redemptive in nature, as was the case with Israel in Babylon. He was trying to wake them up, save them. Turn, turn from your evil ways, for why will you die?

Other judgments are punitive, the end result of sin, it's inevitable conclusion. God withdraws His protection and Satan is allowed full sway to demonstrate to the universe the results of the great controversy.

What do you make of the judgments that came to Job's house? Redemptive, punitive or a different category? Just a thought...

Some say ALL punitive judgment is done by the evil angels as God allows them to work out the principles of the great controversy. Their law vs His law. But I leave room for direct punitive (or redemptive) action from God Himself (via His Holy angels for the most part). I see the flood and Sodom in this light, direct intervention by the hand of God. Even Satan trembled for his life during the flood! Which tells me, that was Gods hand!

The seven last plagues? Directly from God, punitive in nature, redemption is NOT possible as probation has closed. Fear God, His power is unlimited. His patience great, but there is a limit to mercy.

CoAspen says,

"Obey me or I will kill you!!" Crude, but it is the truth. The law of God demands death, Jesus is the ONLY way out. The great controversy is indeed a war of life and death. Each must choose for themself.

[Stan]

It's an excellent point Tom. When we understand Gods rules (laws of all things) and work with them we see the beauty! Trial and error are a hall mark of understanding how to work with, appreciate and see the beauty in Gods laws. I try, I fail, I get up and try again. Pretty soon, I begin to figure it out.

Taste and see that the Lord is good.

So true, and well put.

[Alchemy]

I was very happy to see the large acceptance of the Gift of Prophecy in the church. I must admit though, it is very hard to believe compared to what I see in the church.

As far as people not being contacted after they leave; that seems to be the norm as I see it.

What should we as Seventh-day Adventists make of this survey and what response should we have?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

It's an excellent point Tom. When we understand Gods rules (laws of all things) and work with them we see the beauty! Trial and error are a hall mark of understanding how to work with, appreciate and see the beauty in Gods laws. I try, I fail, I get up and try again. Pretty soon, I begin to figure it out.

Taste and see that the Lord is good.

So true, and well put.

This advice has satisfied me that anyone can have access to THE Truth as it is in Jesus.

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether..."

John 7:17 KJV

It's the "or whether" concluded when we're not too interested in following anything except our own inclination that causes our own hurt, as well as the hurt to others that see us as "light bearers".

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

CoAspen says,

"Obey me or I will kill you!!" Crude, but it is the truth. The law of God demands death, Jesus is the ONLY way out. The great controversy is indeed a war of life and death. Each must choose for themself.

Life is dependent upon being yoked to the LifeGiver. The loss of life (death) is a direct result of deliberate, continuous separation by the recipient from the Source of life. For that unfortunate circumstance God took full responsibility by giving His Son for the miscreant to take his place. Only unwillingness to accept Him on those terms makes death an inevitable end.

I prefer to restate the underlined above by the words:

"As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?" Ezekiel 33:10 NLT

Notice that heart cry from God is to His people, Israel.

"And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues."Revelation 18:4 NKJV

God cares!

[joeb]

This is an interesting thread.

What does the Bible say about things God just absolutely hates? How many things that exist in the church today are on the list? Here's a couple of them.

Quote:

Proverbs 12:22 Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.

Quote:

I Samuel 15: 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

Quote:

Colossians 3: 5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Quote:

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

So, we see that the coveter and the stubborn man are idolators, and that lying is an abomination to God. We also see that being rebellious against God in any way is no different than practicing witchcraft. How much of this is in the church? I'm betting there is quite a bit of it, and I'm talking about church members in good standing too.

It looks to me like the list is really long, and there is a bunch of these things in the church. So, why just pick on homosexuality? It's a sin just like the rest, and all of them will keep us out of heaven.

[CoAspen]

(but you don't understand...it's anything 'sexual' that scares us)

[ClubV12]

"Open sin" joeb, those are the issues the Church is commanded to deal with. That includes everything you mentioned, they are not shunned or swept under the rug. An active gay lifestyle is without excuse, it is open sin, the Church MUST deal with it.

In most cases, concerning your "list" it is not a case of "open sin" that can be confirmed by the mouths of two or three witness. Which is a requirement of the law. In such a case the Church is powerless to take any action. As would be the case for an active gay man who is hiding that from the body, or for one where it cannot be verified by the mouths of two or three. In such a case the Church could not take official action. However, the Church MEMBERS have to VOTE to accept anyone into membership. If the MEMBERS feel something is not right, they don't have to vote to accept you and they don't need a reason!