Administrators Naomi Posted October 21, 2013 Administrators Share Posted October 21, 2013 If you would like to say, "all that she met", you would be correct! However the way you worded it as "all" with out the qualifier, can be seen as the person condemning everyone with in the church, I did not read or hear the individual that way. Everyone deserves a fair chance..eh.... excuse me ,,, I pray that you never fail to fully and completely understand or erroneously mis-quote what another has written ... eh??? However, I give you permission to continue the verbal bashing of my statement Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Ah.....not meant to be 'bashing', I apologize if that is the way It came across. But it is an example of my point. Somehow you took the way I wrote to be bashing when I was trying to point out how others can misunderstand us. When we are not face to face it can often be very difficult to understand the full meaning of short posts. I manage a staff of multiple people/personalities and it is very difficult to get some thing the organization wants to be understood by all in a positive way. We spend much time in saying or writing things in such a way as to not be offensive/upsetting/worrisome to the most people. Very difficult. Church issues and peoples relationship to it, can be very difficult so the 'walking on egg shells' behavior can be the best approach at times. Okay, hope that is a better explanation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Let me guess, in order to maintain that "organization", you have rules? Maybe not, maybe it's every man for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted October 21, 2013 Administrators Share Posted October 21, 2013 CoAaspen, thank you so very, very much for the lesson in how to communicate on the web. I must admit that it an honor to be corrected by a professional. However, in the future when you see that I have made a heinous error you could just tell me, I really do comprehend, without the red letters and drama. Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Tozer... I'm interested in learning more about him and his work Aiden married Ada Pfautz - my mother's cousin. Well thought of in the family. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted October 22, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 22, 2013 Aiden married Ada Pfautz - my mother's cousin. Well thought of in the family. oh brother...I'm related to olger Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 COUSIN !!!! You can come to Thanksgiving now--we will set an extra place. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 oh brother...I'm related to olger Well you know, you can choose your friends... Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted October 22, 2013 Author Members Share Posted October 22, 2013 LOL oh well...it *could* be worse.... Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 That right, you could BE RELATED TO BILL CLINTON. Oh the humanity.... Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Naomi Posted October 22, 2013 Administrators Share Posted October 22, 2013 Hey, careful how you talk about cousin Billy!!...... Oh, THAT Bill Clinton ..... for a minute Quote If your dreams are not big enough to scare you, they are not big enough for God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierrepaul Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 The problem is when we see Christ as the head of the Church and then use that as an excuse to dimiss any of His chosen leadership we don't like. You know, like what happened to Moses, Joshua, Caleb, just about every prophet who ever lived. Like we do today with the Church Board we don't like, the Head Elder, the Pastor, the Conference, the General Conference. ANYBODY that gets in OUR way, we just dismiss their authority, because you know, Christ is the Head. So, I don't have to pay attention or even respect anyone else. This is precisely what the Reformers did. None of Luther, Hus, Calvin, Zwigli and their companions submitted to the chosen leadership. Ellen White did not submit to the chosen leadership of her Methodist church. The part of the SdA message directed to non-SdA Christians exhorts them not to submit to the chosen leadership of their respective churches. The SdA movement was born of and founded upon rebellion against established church leadership (just as Christianity was founded upon rebellion against the established Jewish religious leadership). But once the SdA was established as a church with a hierarchy, a 180 degree about-face is done on the issue of church leadership and authority. Quote God never said "Thou shalt not think". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Jesus never had any intention of displacing His chosen people and the Church He had established, blessed and was a part of through out His life on this earth. He honored, supported and worshiped in that Church as so far as it was in harmony with His Fathers doctrine. Luther never had any intention of dishonoring the Roman Catholic Church. But we must obey God above man. What he saw was the same thing Jesus saw, a Church corrupted by the laws of man replacing the laws of God. Ellen White and family never had any intention of leaving their Church, but the same applied to them as to Jesus and Luther. In her case, a combination of mans laws and a refusal to accept new understanding, new light on the scriptures. What reasonable basis do those who oppose either the leadership or the organization of the Seventh-day Adventist Church have today to ignore, become solitary, start a new and different Church or call for others to leave Gods chosen Church on earth today? None that I can see. A most serious question each of us must answer. Just as Jesus, Luther, Ellen White had to answer. A question Paul addressed when he said we must follow God rather than man. In and all of the above cases this is not some call to rebellion for the sake of rebellion. It was with tears in their eyes that each reformer came to the conclusion they had to move forward in their doctrine. This was a refusal to submit that they might "do their own thing", not based on doctrine. Based on pride and selfishness, making a choice to ignore those whom God has placed over them. Over them in the same sense a father is over his children, to teach, reprove, instruct and protect. We are called to honor the Church as we would honor our father and mother. If your going to rebell, you had better have a very good, solid reason for doing so. It was first Satan who rebelled against Gods "Church" in heaven, saying His laws were unfair, corrupt. He had a better way. Those who rebell need to fully understand on which side of the line they are standing. With Satan or with God. I have yet to see from those who reject the authority of the Seventh-day Adventist Church a reasonable position for their rebellion. Those who leave embrace doctrine and ideas that are not in harmony with the Church, it's instructions or the bible. They are, pure and simple, misguided souls, however sincere they may be, that have become steeped in delusion and rebellion, without a cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 Quote: Ellen White and family never had any intention of leaving their Church, but the same applied to them as to Jesus and Luther. In her case, a combination of mans laws and a refusal to accept new understanding, new light on the scriptures. Quote: I have yet to see from those who reject the authority of the Seventh-day Adventist Church a reasonable position for their rebellion. Those who leave embrace doctrine and ideas that are not in harmony with the Church, it's instructions or the bible. They are, pure and simple, misguided souls, however sincere they may be, that have become steeped in delusion and rebellion, without a cause. So, the question remains, who makes the decision that a .org is refusing to accept 'new understanding'? The .org itself or the individual? EGW and Luther made changes because of what they believed was from God. So again, whose ultimate authority does one submit too? If we are going accept the belief that the individule is responsible to God as their ultimate guide, then should we not accept the fact that persons may have disagrements with the .org and feel compelled to make those differences known and choose to leave.......without condemnation, if need be? You seem to be making a blanket statement about any and all persons who might have a dissagreement with the .org. You are not, or am I, in a position to say that. Only God knows the heart. Remeber, the .org, nor I, nor you, or anyone else, is the ultimate source for a correct understanding of the Bible. I believe that the H*S was sent for that reason to help us as a voice from God. Even, also God Himslef can speak to whom He chooses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted October 24, 2013 Share Posted October 24, 2013 So, the question remains, who makes the decision that a .org is refusing to accept 'new understanding'? The General Conference and here's why. "I have often been instructed by the Lord that no man’s judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any other one man. Never should the mind of one man or the minds of a few men be regarded as sufficient in wisdom and power to control the work, and to say what plans should be followed. But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body . . . . God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing, is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church, in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work." Testimonies, Vol. 9, pp. 260, 261 Jesus disagreed with Jewish leadership, but as far as possible, He submitted to their authority. As did Paul, who disagreed strongly with Timothy! Like James White who disagreed with Uriah Smith. The list of disagreements is long, but in the end, they submitted their will to the greater good of the body, WITHOUT murmurming and complaining and gossiping. Ellen White disagreed with the General Conference, but she obeyed them anyway. Looking to God to handle it, having faith in Him to correct and reprove as needed. If you have a serious disagreement with DOCTRINE, you need to follow Luthers lead, remove your membership and leave the Church. Ellen White said of this, the Church is better off without them, let them go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 You are not answering my questions and beating around the bush as well. Circular reasoning that disregards history. You quote Luther and EGW, saying they left their churches because of light from God, but now you say the church is the final arbitrator of 'new light'! You have put the .org in control of individuals lives and not God or the Holy Spirit! You have gone back to the RCC model and can't admit it! I think confusion doth abound......we've have had this conversation before, so nothing has changed. Far out.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 It's actually quite simple. The apostles had no choice but to start a new Church. Likewise, Luther had no choice. Ellen White and family had to do the same. I believe in every case, this was God protecting the truth, finding a people to preserve and restore it. As He had done with the Jewish nation before. At some point, having taken enough time and prayerfully, seriously considered the matter, each of us will have to make the same decisions those before us have made. Support the Church, or leave the Church, this is a fundamental aspect of the shaking. Our Lord will give each of us sufficient time to consider the evidence. This Church is of God, led by Him, by His Son and by the Holy Spirit, or it is not. No other Church will ever be raised up to replace it. This is it, this one is going through to the end. This Church is indeed the final arbitrator of new light, it's General Conference is the highest authority on earth! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 There are a LARGE number of people on this forum who disregard the authority of the Church. They have left or removed their membership and openly, boldly proclaim various doctrines the organized Church does not accept. They have ONE thing in common, they belief the Church has "fallen". As to their various individual doctrinal views, it is Babylon, not one agrees with the other!!! And yet, ALL are convinced they are led by the Holy Spirit to their correct position. In opposition to the Church. Now which one should I follow? Which ever one a spirit tells me to? Pick a number? Use a magic eight ball? No thanks, I will stay with the Church, because it's obvious nobody else has a workable consistent plan and they all say they are led by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion, by this I know, there is no light in them. "Lessons on obedience, on respect for authority, need to be often repeated." Child Guidance 88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Quote: We are so quick to define for others what they need to do without any regard for their spiritual experience with God!! There is no doubt that is true. However I'm inclined to believe the "we" could be improved if it were changed to "some of us", or perhaps even to "most of us". Not everyone fails as much or necessarily in the same way I fail. God cares! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 CoAspen, I don't understand why you are so abusive toward my posts, perhaps it is your nature to be abusive to most people. Like you are toward the Church and it's leadership. Questions were asked, I answered them. You don't like the answers, so shoot the messenger. Whats up with that? The RCC comparison is a common mistake, a popular mistake, people love to bash the Church by the comparison. In RCC the Pope determines Church law. In Seventh-day Adventist a comittee composed of a number of representatives from around the world makes Church law. Ted Wilson is like a CEO, he just follows orders from the stock holders and the committee, he doesn't set Church law, like the Pope does. Does somebody have a better idea how to establish the rules and laws of a group? Every man for himself? No rules, laws of any kind? Let the Holy Spirit make the laws? Then every Tom, Dick and Harry comes up with a different law and each one says they are "led". That, friend, is Babylon and ridiculous, it is only confusion on a massive scale. How about each individual Conference making Church law? Then the world Church doesn't exist, it's every Conference for themself. Massive confusion. Committee makes Church law, thats just the way it is, if you don't like, don't join. I'm just answering the questions, no need to be rude about it. So chill... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Quote: This Church is indeed the final arbitrator of new light, it's General Conference is the highest authority on earth! Total RCC model! This is not a teaching of the .org and never has been. I'm out of here...adios! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 The RCC model has a POPE who makes Church law, the Adventist Church does not. The Advenist Church, like many organizations, clubs, groups, has a committee comprised of representatives from around the world, JUST LIKE THE EARLY CHURCH USED, who determine Church law (Peter, James, Paul, etc. etc.). Since it's founding Church law has always been flexible in regards to "new light". New light AND claims of someone being a prophet are taken very seriously by the Church. Such claims are carefully considered and compared to the law and the testimony. Suspicion, distrust, concern over the spiritual condition of the G.C. is rampant among Adventists. It feeds the beast of those who have left the Church and declare it to be in apostasy. Those who denigrate the Church leadership as a habit and without cause lend their voice to those who fight against the Church. It is one thing to be ever watchful, it is another to continually engage in denigrating the authority and leadership of the Church. I'm sure glad it's not some local Church or a person here or there setting Church law for the world Church! What a mess that would be! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 Quote: CoAspen, I don't understand why you are so abusive toward my posts, perhaps it is your nature to be abusive to most people. Like you are toward the Church and it's leadership. So If a person questions your beliefs and why, explains why they disagree with you and continues to ask questions so as not to make assumptions, that is abusive? Really? Talk about assumptions,>CoAspen, I don't understand why you are so abusive toward my posts, perhaps it is your nature to be abusive to most people. Like you are toward the Church and it's leadership.< you have no idea what I think about the .org or its leadership. Just because I don't agree with your position of church being final authority or GC president speaking for God, that is abusive? Really? WOW!! Again, adios(really, I mean it this time.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted October 25, 2013 Share Posted October 25, 2013 CoAspen, I wish you the very best, I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye on some of these issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted October 26, 2013 Share Posted October 26, 2013 Originally Posted By: ClubV12 The problem is when we see Christ as the head of the Church and then use that as an excuse to dimiss any of His chosen leadership we don't like. You know, like what happened to Moses, Joshua, Caleb, just about every prophet who ever lived. Like we do today with the Church Board we don't like, the Head Elder, the Pastor, the Conference, the General Conference. ANYBODY that gets in OUR way, we just dismiss their authority, because you know, Christ is the Head. So, I don't have to pay attention or even respect anyone else. This is precisely what the Reformers did. None of Luther, Hus, Calvin, Zwigli and their companions submitted to the chosen leadership. Ellen White did not submit to the chosen leadership of her Methodist church. The part of the SdA message directed to non-SdA Christians exhorts them not to submit to the chosen leadership of their respective churches. The SdA movement was born of and founded upon rebellion against established church leadership (just as Christianity was founded upon rebellion against the established Jewish religious leadership). But once the SdA was established as a church with a hierarchy, a 180 degree about-face is done on the issue of church leadership and authority. Where do you get your understanding of "rebellion" from with respect to Ellen White and the Methodist church, Jesus and the Jewish church of His day, and the early Protestant reformers and the Catholic church? I see that in each instance the people in question sought reformation and revival of the establishment, not to break away from an established order. The fact that the established order threw out those seeking reformation and revival does not mean those seeking reformation and revival were rebellious towards anyone. I see it as these people placing loyalty to God and His word above human organizations, and that's how each of the people in question explained their own actions. Those who were rebellious were actually the established order for they were the ones fighting against God. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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