Guest arnie Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Now that's funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 What does her husband do, is he a Pastor or is she married? Or did I hear he was a MD and a researcher. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted November 2, 2013 Moderators Share Posted November 2, 2013 Hebrews 13:17 ESV "Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you." Or not... maybe that was only an opinion of the author and we are safe to ignore it? Why do you want us to submit to the leaders who are against women's ordinatin, and not the leaders of 100 years ago, such as Mrs. White and her hand picked and trained General Conference President who saw Women's ordination as Biblical but that the members needed to be edeucated because too much of the layity was not ready for it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Kevin states his OPINION, "...not the leaders of 100 years ago, such as Mrs. White and her hand picked and trained General Conference President who saw Women's ordination as Biblical." Your statement would leave the average man on the street to conclude that Ellen White supports womens ordination as a "fact". IF that were "fact", the G.C. wouldn't need a study committee to resolve this. Therefore the only reasonable conclusion is that your statement, like many that support W.O., is merely your "opinion". The question remains open as to whether Ellen White or this G.C. President she "hand picked" supported ordination, or not. Your opinion is noted. I'm not asking you to submit to leadership, the bible does that. I recently told a fellow that owes me a lot of money that I forgive him. I also told him he needs to seek Gods forgiveness, not just mine. He said, "Why you laying this guilt trip on me?" Wasn't me laying anything on him, his reaction and responsibility to duty is between him and God. Likewise our responsibility to submit one to another and to honor and obey leadership is between you and God. Choose carefully... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 What does her husband do, is he a Pastor or is she married? Or did I hear he was a MD and a researcher. I have wondered the same thing. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted November 3, 2013 Moderators Share Posted November 3, 2013 I'm sorry, but I got that "Opinion" from church records. They were presented at the New York Conference Campmeeting in 2012 by an official Church historian from Andrews University. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 I get it Kevin, your opinion is based on his opinion, which you are presenting as fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted November 3, 2013 Administrators Share Posted November 3, 2013 club, God is unchanging, he is the same yesterday today and forever. to allow and place a women in leadership cannot be an anomaly for God. God is dealing with human beings who struggle to stretch to grasp and understand with width and depth of God's love. it was after pentecost that Peter was still struggling in his flesh with the idea of God's equal acceptance of Gentiles, and it was even after Cornelius that he was still affected by his bias and prejudice. Just because God blesses us does not mean we have reached or especially understand the full width and breadth of God's love. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Male leadership is a plainly taught in Scripture. The politics of this issue are subservient to this larger theological principle. rejoice always, G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted November 3, 2013 Author Administrators Share Posted November 3, 2013 Male leadership is a plainly taught in Scripture. The politics of this issue are subservient to this larger theological principle. rejoice always, G An opinion that is very much out of harmony with the position held by this church throughout the lifetime of the female who was unquestionably a leader of this church - Ellen G. White. The founders of this Church and its leadership during EGW's lifetime consistently supported women in ministry and leadership and acted upon it by licensing women as ministers and appointing women to numerous leadership positions at all levels of the denomination, including the General Conference. To be consistent with whatever hermeneutic you base that opinion on, you have to reject God's calling of Ellen White as his messenger to lead in the formation and growth of this Church. If you do not think she was in a leadership role, you undermine her authoritative voice for this Church. Do you accept her authority over you, a man, or not? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 God provided leadership through his servant, yes. We agree on that. On eagerly seizing that abstract example as a reason that all women are therefore eligible for leadership seems to do two things. 1) It devalues Ellen's gift. 2) It reaches for a justification that just isn't there. The fact that Deborah was a prophetess, didn't eliminate role distinctions in the rest of the Bible, nor did it cause Jesus to select women as His disciples. I know that sounds ludicrous, and it is a fair facsimile of people trying to use eGW to justify female headship in the church today. Hogwash, as Grandma would say. Blessins, G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthWave Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Amen,Bro! I'm with you! Quote "Lux Lucet in Tenebris" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthWave Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Amen,Bro! Quote "Lux Lucet in Tenebris" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthWave Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Wrong. EGW was a prophet, the prophets were 2nd in the list of spiritual gifts, the Apostles were first. Quote "Lux Lucet in Tenebris" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthWave Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 So true, Bro. Quote "Lux Lucet in Tenebris" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 If Adam & Eve's first child had been a girl, Tom et al. would be doing backflips trying to spin that as justification for female headship. Thus goes the desperation. og out Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windsor Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 If Adam & Eve's first child had been a girl, Tom et al. would be doing backflips trying to spin that as justification for female headship. Thus goes the desperation. og out In fact, the Bible strangely doesn't even mention the name of a single daughter of Adam and Eve though it mentions they (obviously) had daughters. I also find fascinating that the Bible fails to mention the name of Noah's wife even though she is the ancestor of every human living today. Quote Remember Adventists Online? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 God provided leadership through his servant, yes. We agree on that. On eagerly seizing that abstract example as a reason that all women are therefore eligible for leadership seems to do two things. 1) It devalues Ellen's gift. 2) It reaches for a justification that just isn't there. The fact that Deborah was a prophetess, didn't eliminate role distinctions in the rest of the Bible, nor did it cause Jesus to select women as His disciples. I know that sounds ludicrous, and it is a fair facsimile of people trying to use eGW to justify female headship in the church today. Hogwash, as Grandma would say. Blessins, G Seems to me that there were 4 daughters of some man, who were considered prophets in the NT, and there is at least ONE each, deaconess and apostle, who were female...There are numerous prophecies enunciating that females , along with thier male counterparts, are playing prime roles in the last days of earth's history... As for the concept of "headship", there is neither the word "headship" nor is the concept accepted in the NT without many other texts showing that men and women are equal, both in salvation and in church responsiblities....Thus, those who accept the concept of "headship" are adding to the bible... Now, if you want to talk about a team doing the harvesting of people in the last days, women play an equal role there as well.... It also occurs to me, that the early church has far many more females that were in leadership positions, ie prophets, administrators, business leaders, than we in the last days do...Yet, the impression is that there are far many more ladies in those positions in these, the last days of earth history, than at the first.... Therefore, these gifts are not devalued if there are more women....rather, it confirms that women are needed and valued even more than our predecessors thought..... Olger, you are in direct conflict with your forefathers.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 As for the concept of "headship", there is neither the word "headship" nor is the concept accepted in the NT without many other texts showing that men and women are equal, both in salvation and in church responsiblities....Thus, those who accept the concept of "headship" are adding to the bible... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 11, 2013 Share Posted November 11, 2013 Neil, Do you really believe the issue is about Biblical definitions, spirituality, abilities or .........who is in charge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Neil,Do you really believe the issue is about Biblical definitions, spirituality, abilities or .........who is in charge? I am not sure where you are trying to go with this....so let me answer your questions pretty specifically.... I believe in equality...currently, I see some major inequalities being done by the church...Ever since reading about the Mary Kay incident 25 years ago [or there a bouts], I have been aware of some church illegalities done to individuals simply because of gender issues. It doesn't appeal to my sense of fairness...and to be honest, it just isn't right.... After looking at the spiritual side of the gender issue, ie priests were males, eve fell before adam, women were not allowed to teach men, ect. I honestly saw a biblical justification for inequality. And my sense of fairness kicked in...and I almost didnt believe in the Christian's God of fairness and honesty...Then I read a book about some gender issues from our theology department in Andrews...and that book made sense[can't remember the name of it, something like "coming to the table"]...it appealed to my sense of fairness for women, it justified God and His fairness.... So, yeah, there are biblical definitions that I feel are being used in error, mis-defined, and mishandled. Yeah, there are spiritual issues here that are not being addressed, or deliberately derailed. We KNOW that women are quite capable of doing MOST men's jobs, and therefore are quite capable of being in charge..... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Twas a genuine question. You seemed to have thought things through in a logical manner, so I was just wondering. My thoughts are changing to the blief that the issue is more about 'control' vs theology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Quote: Headship came part and parcel with the birthright blessing. Really? biblical text that shows the word "Headship" and "birthright" in the same text please.... If you can't find it, may I suggest that the two words identify two different concepts that are plainly reviewed in scripture... Quote: Headship also came with kingly power, of course, as the king was made head over the nation. Again, text please using the word "Headship"..... Quote: But perhaps the most important text on this topic of headship is to be found where everyone who rejects the Old Testament as having been done away cannot dismiss it: right in the New Testament. Originally Posted By: The Bible But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3) Um,where is the word "headship" in that text...I see the word "head"...but not the word "headship"...those are two different concepts and do not mean the same...and the context is a bit off.... Why don't you start off by defining what "headship" is....and where that word is in the bible....and then we can go from there.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted November 12, 2013 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2013 The book was: Quote: The Welcome Table: Setting a Place for Ordained Women. edited by Patricia A. Habada and Rebecca Frost Brillhart, TEAM Press, Langley Park, Maryland, 1995 We have three of the 14 essays that comprise this out-of-print book for your on-line reading. Bert Haloviak: Chapter 1: A Place at the Table: Women and the Early Years Kit Watts: Chapter 2 Moving Away From the Table: A Survey of Historical Factors Affecting Women Leaders Kit Watts: Appendix 5 An Outline of the History of Seventh-day Adventists and the Ordination of Women You can access the three chapters listed above at: http://sdanet.org/atissue/wo/ Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 That was it.....thanks Gregory.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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