Neil D Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Twas a genuine question. You seemed to have thought things through in a logical manner, so I was just wondering. My thoughts are changing to the belief that the issue is more about 'control' vs theology. I might throw in a few side issues, but over all, I won't argue with you.... Our society has become more conservative in attitudes over the last, well, for the last 13 years especially[a reference to politics]....I think that has added to the problem....and there is a solidifying of values [ a reference to religion ]....I suspect that many of us don't even know just how dumb down we really are.....[a reference to education].... ok, back to the topic..... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted November 12, 2013 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2013 On eagerly seizing that abstract example as a reason that all women are therefore eligible for leadership seems to do two things. An abstract example would have been Joan of Arc or perhaps Margaret Thatcher but EGW is probably the most pertinent example we can use. She was chosen by God to provide leadership to the SDA church. She, although deceased, is the most authoritative voice in the SDA church. To use a form of words that runs away from calling her a leader or acknowledging her authority certainly devalues her gift and is disingenuous. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 She was chosen after a couple of men, who were chosen before her, couldn't handle the job. It's the same principle we see in the bible over and over. God calls a MAN, he can't handle it, God has to move to the "back up plan", the secondary, not His first choice. When He couldn't find a man OR a woman, He used children. By some reasoning, 2nd graders should be allowed to be President. Of perhaps you would prefer to use Balaams donkey as your example, or maybe a rock. Prophets are a distinct calling, who they are, what they are called to do set no precedents of the Church one way or the other. Neither do children... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Quote: Prophets are a distinct calling, who they are, what they are called to do set no precedents of the Church one way or the other. Say What? Really? EGW set no precedents for the church!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 You read it right CoAspen, Ellen White sets no precedents one way or the other for or against womens ordination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted November 12, 2013 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2013 She was chosen after a couple of men, who were chosen before her, couldn't handle the job. It's the same principle we see in the bible over and over. God calls a MAN, he can't handle it, God has to move to the "back up plan", the secondary, not His first choice. When He couldn't find a man OR a woman, He used children. By some reasoning, 2nd graders should be allowed to be President. Of perhaps you would prefer to use Balaams donkey as your example, or maybe a rock. Prophets are a distinct calling, who they are, what they are called to do set no precedents of the Church one way or the other. Neither do children... Club, one of those two men, William Foy, was NOT chosen to lead in the development of the Seventh-day Adventist church. He was faithful to his job, and if God wanted him to do what became Mrs. White's job, he would have done it. Now you may have a point with Hazen Foss, but you will have to edit that at least one man was offered the job first. I know that our older histories classify Foy with Foss, however there was a study about Foy done in the late 1970s and it was discovered that Foy was indeed faithful to his job and a true saint with a star studded crown waiting for him in the resurrection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 12, 2013 Share Posted November 12, 2013 Soooooo...you're narrowing 'precedents' to one issue/thing/theology? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Nope, not narrowing CoAspen, as it concerns setting precedents, prophets don't apply across the board. Ellen White could have cared less whether she was ordained, or not, of what title you gave her, or whether she was considered a "leader", she had a mission, straight from the throne. WAS she a "leader"? That could be argued. She was always under the direction OF leadership and submitted to their requests. Unless, following Pauls advice, it was clear she must obey God on some specific issue rather than man. NAD would do well to follow her example in that regard. NAD, NOT having direct light, has placed itself on very dangerous ground by snubbing the authority of leadership. However "good" their excuses may be, they remain, excuses. She didn't discover the Sabbath, Bates did. She wasn't the first to figure out the doctrine of the sanctuary, Hiram Edson and even Fitch preceded her on that. She didn't figure out WHEN to keep the Sabbath, Andrews did. And the list goes on and on. She, for the most part, was ignorant of the bible study the MEN were doing to establish doctrine. She couldn't even follow the conversations! She was a mouth piece for God, through divine inspiration, visions, dreams, affirming the diligent bible study of the leaders and founders of this Church. Interesting point about Foy Kevin, I haven't studied the issue to have an opinion about your comment. I sure hope thats the case though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 Quote: Headship came part and parcel with the birthright blessing. Really? biblical text that shows the word "Headship" and "birthright" in the same text please.... If you can't find it, may I suggest that the two words identify two different concepts that are plainly reviewed in scripture... Quote: Headship also came with kingly power, of course, as the king was made head over the nation. Again, text please using the word "Headship"..... Quote: But perhaps the most important text on this topic of headship is to be found where everyone who rejects the Old Testament as having been done away cannot dismiss it: right in the New Testament. Originally Posted By: The Bible But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3) Um,where is the word "headship" in that text...I see the word "head"...but not the word "headship"...those are two different concepts and do not mean the same...and the context is a bit off.... Why don't you start off by defining what "headship" is....and where that word is in the bible....and then we can go from there.... Neil, Your question specifically looking for the word "headship" is like asking specifically for the word "adulthood" and somehow thinking that one cannot be an "adult" without the use of the word "adulthood." Simple grammar would tell anyone how the words "head" and "headship" are related, just as "child" and "childhood", "adult" and "adulthood", "king" and "kingship", etc. If one is the "head", then he is in a position of "headship." If one is the "king," then he is in a position of "kingship." If one is a disciple, he is in "discipleship." The fact that the Bible uses the word "head" and not specifically "headship" is a point of grammar usage and not a point of meaning. Heads of tribes, by definition, can be said to have positions of "headship." The head of the house is also in a position of "headship." Do you deny these facts? Blessings, Green Cochoa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 You really don't understand headship, do you Green? Even by using your biblical definitions of what "headship" is, that is defining what a man should be, the concept of headship overstates the biblical one... You see, by your bible text/definition, But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3) demonstrates that a man first is humble, is selfless....the definition of headship doesn't say that. It demonstrates selfishness," chief authority, supremacy"... That is why you are mistaken, Green...you are piecing definitions to support an idea that you think is in the bible.... The bible gives illustrations as to what a man should be and his relationship to his wife...It starts with Adam, who did nothing wrong at the very beginning of creation in letting Eve explore in a safe place called Paradise where threats were unheard of, let alone, understood. How do you protect yourself from evil when it has never existed before, and you don't know what form it will take...So, Adam concentrated on his relationship with Eve...As for that tree that they were not to eat from, well, not to worry, because there were plenty of other trees to eat from...and they both pledged not to eat from that one tree...Now, if Adam practiced a "biblical" headship, as you believe, then Adam would have hovered or commanded Eve as to where to go...because she was his 'helpmeet'... Now, think about this...What fully functional, relationship ready biblical woman is going to be 'commanded'? Have you ever tried to command a woman, let alone a person? I have meet many relationship ready women, and NONE of them submitted to perceived authority, married, let alone unmarried women. She will always rebel against authority...even your perceived "Godly" woman. It's all in the context,Green...Your concept of headship is neither biblical nor practical...in fact, it is rather fanciful... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted November 13, 2013 Author Administrators Share Posted November 13, 2013 Green, you do need to spend some quality time with a dictionary. (It really isn't just about grammar…) While there is a relationship between "head" and "headship", the meaning of headship is much more specific and limited. It really only has two closely related definitions in the dictionary. But the word "head" has about 60 distinct definitions according to my dictionary. And only a few of those are even remotely related to the concept and meaning of "headship". But that is only about the word in English as we understand and use it in the 21st Century. The essential point of this whole issue is what did the Greek mean in the 1st Century. The better scholarship does get to that essential difference. And from that the Greek word(s) translated into English as "head" cannot be assumed to have had all the same meanings and nuances in the 1st Century as 21st Century English equivalent, and visa versa. And when experts in 1st Century Greek tell us that a very distinct meaning of the Greek word used is "source" rather than "in charge or control or rulership", then we should pay attention and at least consider that our own view may not be the only possibility. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted November 14, 2013 Moderators Share Posted November 14, 2013 Newer publications tend to have the updated information about Foy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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