Adventist Church in North America recommends affirmation of men and women for or

[pierrepaul]

Cut to the chase:

Can a woman be General Conference President? Is that biblically supported? THAT is a theological question.

It's still not "theology" (in the traditional sense of the word "theology").

[Johann]

The following are the nine (9) General Vice-Presidents of the General Conference:

Delbert W. Baker,

Lowell C. Cooper,

Geoffrey G. Mbwana,

Armando Miranda,

Pardon K. Mwansa,

Michael L. Ryan,

Benjamin D. Schoun,

Ella S. Simmons,

Artur A. Stele.

I have not checked, but it appears likely to me that all of the above are ordained, with the exception of Ms. Simmons.

If all are ordained with the exception of one, why do we have that exception?

[ClubV12]

To prevent a woman from being elected President, obviously. So if you want to ordain women, fine. Will you then allow them to be elected President of the world church, or not?

[phkrause]

I for one would not have a problem with that. I think what's happening is most are afraid that if a woman did get elected she would do a better job the those in the boys club.

[ClubV12]

I think ordination is the current methodology employed to prevent women from cerain specificed positions. Paul clearly restricted women to some degree in what positions they could fill. I don't believe Pauls counsel is or was based on "culture", as some have argued.

Assuming for a moment that Pauls counsel is NOT based on the culture of his time, then what justifies the Church in ignoring for this time? If the counsel is not cultural, there must be some very good reason we are willing to ignore it. I wonder what that reason is?

Pauls counsel is not based on who could do a better job or who could do the job one way or the other. It is based strictly on disallowing a woman to do the job, because she IS a woman. Because thats the way God wants it, or Paul wouldn't have said it.

[phkrause]

I don't believe Pauls counsel is or was based on "culture", as some have argued.

I disagree, I'll go with the Jewish pastors we have in the SDA church we have. If we really want to know if its cultural or not we need to ask Doug Batchelor, Steve Wahlberg, Alex Schuler(sp), Herb Silver, etc., there are a few more Jewish pastors that at this moment I can't think of there names. I think you'll agree that there are other issues in the Bible that we say its a cultural thing, so why would we think that this is not?? Anyway you get my point, I believe we have number of pastor that know about the jewish/Hebrew culture that we need to be asking what they believe about this issue.

[ClubV12]

Well there you go PK, some are strongly divided on whether Pauls counsel in which he refers all the way back to ADAM is "cultural" or not. That is one of the fundamental questions.

As for me, I will follow the plain words of the inspired prophet, Paul.

[pierrepaul]

Originally Posted By: pierrepaul

It's interesting that they refer to the topic at hand as the "theology of ordination". Ordination is an issue of ecclesiology, not theology.

Male leadership is very much biblical, friend.

blessings!

G

Not everything that is biblical constitutes "theology".

[pierrepaul]

Assuming for a moment that Pauls counsel is NOT based on the culture of his time, then what justifies the Church in ignoring for this time? If the counsel is not cultural, there must be some very good reason we are willing to ignore it. I wonder what that reason is?

That IMO is the fundamental question. What is the nature of Paul's revelation. It is very difficult to ignore or reinterpret certain passages in Paul's writings without addressing the larger bibiological issue regarding the nature, import and authority of Paul's writings.

This would be a major departure from traditional SdA teaching which holds that the Bible contains a message for all times and peoples. It's of interest that in the 28 SdA fundamental beliefs, the first belief on the list states the church's teaching on bibliology, while the church's teachings on theology are contained in beliefs 2 through 5. This is in contrast to the Nicene Creed which begins with the nature of God and doesn't mention the Bible or revelation.

Although Luther had talked about "sola scriptura", the Augsburg Confession lacks an Article on the Bible. Jean Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion begin with the nature of God as well. It really wasn't until 1910 and General Presbyterian Assembly that the basic Protestant teaching on bibiology took centre stage as being the first of the five fundamentals defining fundamentalism.

Women's ordination may or may not be wise, but it will require a major qualification to the church's teaching on biblical inerrancy and sufficiency.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

I know who Mrs. Simmons is. Been in the same room with her on two occasions.

Peace out,

g

Do you mean it started out with a fight

I don't mean that...Pilgrim.

[olger]

I for one would not have a problem with that. I think what's happening is most are afraid that if a woman did get elected she would do a better job the those in the boys club.

That is ridiculous.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I don't believe Pauls counsel is or was based on "culture", as some have argued.

I disagree, I'll go with the Jewish pastors we have in the SDA church we have. If we really want to know if its cultural or not we need to ask Doug Batchelor, Steve Wahlberg, Alex Schuler(sp), Herb Silver, etc., there are a few more Jewish pastors that at this moment I can't think of there names. I think you'll agree that there are other issues in the Bible that we say its a cultural thing, so why would we think that this is not?? Anyway you get my point, I believe we have number of pastor that know about the jewish/Hebrew culture that we need to be asking what they believe about this issue.

Doug and Steve are both opposed to WO.

[ClubV12]

Actually, no matter how you look at Pauls advice, in Corinthians or Timothy, it is a delicate thing to rightly divide the truth as it concerns culture.

We must be careful to not throw it out because we think it is all culture related. Nor can we insist that every aspect of his counsel is a requirement today. Doing that leads women to wonder if they should be wearing bonnets and head coverings in Church! Or that all of us should be removing our shoes before entering Church.

Somewhere in between, there are principles that apply to all those who follow God. From Adam until today. Women in a submissive role, however we define that, is such a principle. It is not based on culture.

[olger]

Correct, CV12.

Blessins!

`G

[phkrause]

Doug and Steve are both opposed to WO.

I know they are!!!!! Why did I say they were not????? My comment if you read it, was a reply to "culture" at the time.

[Kevin H]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I don't believe Pauls counsel is or was based on "culture", as some have argued.

I disagree, I'll go with the Jewish pastors we have in the SDA church we have. If we really want to know if its cultural or not we need to ask Doug Batchelor, Steve Wahlberg, Alex Schuler(sp), Herb Silver, etc., there are a few more Jewish pastors that at this moment I can't think of there names. I think you'll agree that there are other issues in the Bible that we say its a cultural thing, so why would we think that this is not?? Anyway you get my point, I believe we have number of pastor that know about the jewish/Hebrew culture that we need to be asking what they believe about this issue.

Once again I'd like to recommend the work of archaeologist, Dr. Jim Fleming.

He points out that about 100 years before Christ, there was a Rabbi who's works were very popular and was almost included in the Bible. He had a bad marriage and said some very unkind words against women. He advocated that that Judaism should STOP having women priests, stop educating women in religious matters and have them focus on the home. He advocated that they STOP having women have that blue thread in there clothing since that blue thread was a sign of being an ordained priest and he said that we needed to STOP ordaining women.

Now when people went to worship, the Rabbi would sit in a chair. If someone was ordained they were allowed to sit at his feet, the laity would stand and listen. This Rabbi said that women should not even stand and listen, but have them while listening do a lot of the womanly tasks, hospitality tasks while the Rabbi taught.

If he was advocating Judaism to STOP ordaining women, then what had they been doing?

This grew in popularity in Judaism. However in recent years synagogue lists had been found from the time of Jesus and there were a number of women Rabbis. The Jewish traditionalists are saying that the husband must have been the real Rabbi, but that they forgot his name so put her's in his place on the list.

[Neil D]

The definition of ordination is a large part of the ongoing debate Neil. You see that as hypocrisy, for some reason, I don't know how you manage that, but whatever.

At this point "ordination" is the "code word" that would allow a woman to be elected President of the world Church. I believe this is forbidden by the counsel of Paul. Thus I believe it is a direct violation of biblical law.

IF you allow women to be ordained and the G.C. rules they are in favor, the next question would logically follow: Does this allow a woman to be President of the G.C.? If the answer is yes, then we need a new rule, law or guideline that specifically says a woman cannot be President of the G.C. In order to be in harmony with the bible.

Perhaps it would easier for you if the G.C. said a commissioned woman could be President of the G.C.? No matter what her title or appoint may be, I would oppose this. Even while I will honor and respect the C.C.'s authority, I would continue to oppose such a ruling with pen and voice, in a respectful way.

To oppose in a respectful manner with pen and voice, once an Ordain female is made president of the conference, is certainly within your rights...a largely rude gesture if using your voice in her presence, but certainly within your right....

As for "biblical law" and women not being allowed to be "top dog" [aka Church President], I just don't see your problem with it...

The Church is involved with evangelism, or at least, should be [i agree that we have more managers than reapers]. It has only one commission...to make disciples for Jesus...nothing else matters... this involves using principles that are better demonstrated by women than men...and men definitely respond to nurturing by women...

I once made the statement that I thought was pretty universal. That, when it came to relationships, women were more nurturing than men....Well, there were many people here on this board, who thought I just wasn't observing things correctly AND that Thier son, or husband or uncle was VERY nurturing...and it wasn't just a few posts....Many, if not most posts were saying that thier male was more nurturing on a one to one basis,or to a church than females....as evidenced by nurturing these pastors and elders of the church. The point here is that most men haven't been nurtured enough, and right now, most are getting thier nurturing from females...and they need male nurturing...That is our sickness that we have lost over the years and even since the fall...

As for Ordination being a "code word", I think you need to look at the roots of the word again....and look at the definition that many have put out here...and to which you have used....that is, ordination is an agreement made by observation that an individual is being used by God to further His work....And if that means that a female needs to be a Conference President, so be it...but we need to ordain these women and recognize and learn from them for thier work in God's Great Commission..."to go make disciples".....

[ClubV12]

Why would it be rude to tell a woman President you don't believe she is qualified to be in that role because of her gender?

As President, she should welcome a variety of view points, not be surrounded by a bunch of "yes" men or women. THAT would be "rude", to speak unto her smooth sayings and tickle her ears.

One can voice, or write, their opinion in a respectful way, no matter what the company they are in may be.

Words change meaning rather quickly in society and within various groups. Right now, "ordination", within a group of Adventists, means empowering women to attain the highest levels of leadership and authority. Your dictionary is outdated on this issue.

[Neil D]

Why would it be rude to tell a woman President you don't believe she is qualified to be in that role because of her gender?

As President, she should welcome a variety of view points, not be surrounded by a bunch of "yes" men or women. THAT would be "rude", to speak unto her smooth sayings and tickle her ears.

One can voice, or write, their opinion in a respectful way, no matter what the company they are in may be.

[Johann]

I for one would not have a problem with that. I think what's happening is most are afraid that if a woman did get elected she would do a better job the those in the boys club.

A General Conference president told the story of how a boy got elected as president of the boy'a club.

- They first wanted me to be the secretary, but since I do not know how to write they wanted me to be the treasurer. But since I don't know 'rithmetic, they had to make me the president.

Men have been using excuses for ages to demand they be the leaders over better qualified persons.

[ClubV12]

Well Neil, if you think my position of not allowing a woman to be President is "rude". I think your position of demanding she be allowed to is even "ruder". Or is that "rudder"?

Whatever,,, anyway,,, I triple dog dare ya, or something. :)

[CoAspen]

For those who have not read all of the supporting documents and reasons for the NAD decision, go to this link and scroll to the bottom. As reported in the AR.

Supporting documentation

[ClubV12]

"The General Conference conducts much of its work through its divisions, which in turn are comprised of unions in specific areas of the world. Each division of the General Conference is authorized to carry out responsibilities in the territory assigned to it. It shall act in full harmony with the General Conference Constitution and Bylaws, the General Conference Working Policy, and actions of the Executive Committee.

"In order to carry the authority of the General Conference, the actions of division committees shall, of necessity, be in harmony with and complementary to the decisions of the General Conference in Session, and the actions of the General Conference Executive Committee between Sessions".

(General Conference Working Policy, 2011 - 2012, p. 1).

[Green Cochoa]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

I for one would not have a problem with that. I think what's happening is most are afraid that if a woman did get elected she would do a better job the those in the boys club.

A General Conference president told the story of how a boy got elected as president of the boy'a club.

- They first wanted me to be the secretary, but since I do not know how to write they wanted me to be the treasurer. But since I don't know 'rithmetic, they had to make me the president.

Men have been using excuses for ages to demand they be the leaders over better qualified persons.

This line of reasoning, human reasoning it must be said, ignores the fact that God does not look to the sort of "qualifications" that man looks at. He is interested in the obedience to His will that comes from the heart.

His disciples were not so well educated. By the world's standards, they were not "qualified." But to God, they were the most qualified.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Neil D]

Quote:

His disciples were not so well educated. By the world's standards, they were not "qualified." But to God, they were the most qualified.

Your statement is a rather, well, it understates reality....

His disciples had entrenched ideas that the best Teacher in the universe, had to over come...And once these same men began to think outside thier entrenched ideas, they slowly began to see what was needed...Hence, they began to 'obey' and do what was needed...after all, thier Teacher taught them better than any they have ever heard before...and qualified them such that any university would have been proud to have graduated them...