Little horn of Dan 8

[Samie]

Hi Trevor;

You believe that Luke 21 was fulfilled in AD 70. But there is one statement of the Lord in Luke 21 that seem to tell us the prophecy in Luke 21 is yet to be fulfilled.

Quote:

Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

There is proof that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 still left stones on top of other stones: the Wailing Wall.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie,

You believe that Luke 21 was fulfilled in AD 70. But there is one statement of the Lord in Luke 21 that seem to tell us the prophecy in Luke 21 is yet to be fulfilled.

Quote:

Luke 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

There is proof that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 still left stones on top of other stones: the Wailing Wall.

I believe that the major part of the Olivet Prophecy was fulfilled in AD70 and it was a warning to the Jewish Christians who were then living in Jerusalem that they should not continue to rely upon the Temple or any of its rituals for deliverance. The Book of Hebrews should have prepared them for letting go of The Law and all that pertained to it and place their full confidence for salvation out of the present circumstances on the instruction, guidance and care of Jesus. Both counselled them to forsake Jerusalem at the appropriate time.

Luke 21:20-21 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Hebrews 13:12-14 (KJV): 12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. 13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. 14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

The detail in Luke 21 following the above can only apply to AD70:

Luke 21:22-24 (KJV): 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Having said all of that, is there still some further fulfilment with regard to the detail of “there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown”? Possibly, but I am not certain, as the Temple was completely thrown down and the the wailing wall is only a retaining wall for the platform of the area where the Temple once stood. I do believe in an invasion by the King of the North before Armageddon, and in this event Jerusalem will once more be captured.

Zechariah 14:1-2 (KJV): 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Daniel 11:40-45 (KJV): 40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

There could be a final fulfilment of the detail concerning the stones of the wailing wall, but I am not certain.

Kind regards

Trevor

[Kevin H]

The western wall was only part of the wall. When the Romans burned down the temple gold melted and went between the stones. The solders turn over every stone in the temple itself to search for any of the gold.

The prophecy it self was connected to the sun going dark, the red moon, and the falling of the stars...

Usually if a god's temple was destroyed, how do you worship them? It usually means the death to the worship of that god. Now the temple of Yahweh was to be destroyed so was the worship of Yahweh to stop? No but the false gods, such as the sungod, moongod, and all the stargods were to suffer the fatal blow as they fall to the spreading of the gospel.

This was fulfilled in the spread of the gospel in the days of the apostles, as well as in the late 1700s and early 1800s with the great missionary movements, and a last great spreading of the gospel at the end of time.

[Samie]

...

Matthew 24:15-18 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Luke 21:20-21 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Notice the same message is given in Matthew and Luke, but Matthew speaks about the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place, while Luke speaks of Jerusalem compassed with armies.

...

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie and Greetings Kevin H,

The western wall was only part of the wall. When the Romans burned down the temple gold melted and went between the stones. The solders turn over every stone in the temple itself to search for any of the gold.

The prophecy it self was connected to the sun going dark, the red moon, and the falling of the stars...

Usually if a god's temple was destroyed, how do you worship them? It usually means the death to the worship of that god. Now the temple of Yahweh was to be destroyed so was the worship of Yahweh to stop? No but the false gods, such as the sungod, moongod, and all the stargods were to suffer the fatal blow as they fall to the spreading of the gospel.

This was fulfilled in the spread of the gospel in the days of the apostles, as well as in the late 1700s and early 1800s with the great missionary movements, and a last great spreading of the gospel at the end of time.

[Samie]

Hi Trevor,

Dan 12:11 records that the taking away of the daily precedes the setting up of the AoD by a period of 1290 days. It isn't just possible that both occured at the same time in 70 AD. Also, if the setting up of the AoD already occurred in 70 AD, what event fulfilled the great tribulation soon thereafter?

Note that our Savior Himself specified that the setting up of the AoD triggers a succession of events starting with the great tribulation the occurrence of which God will shorten or no one will remain alive. And immediately after that tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena will occur which will be capped by the 2nd Coming of our Lord (see Matt 24:15-31; Mark 13:14-26).

No matter how we slice it, the Mt. Olivet prophecy starting with the setting up of the AoD will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming.

In Christ,

Samie

[12tribes]

Daniel 8:11 KJV

(11) Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

The word sacrifice is in italics, meaning it was added by the translators and is not in the original. the word rendered "daily" occurs no fewer than 102 times in the Old Testament and almost invariably has reference to the "daily" or "continual" sacrifices in the temple service. The expression is used in order to distinguish the regular services of the sanctuary from those which were offered once a year at the time of the special feasts.

Exodus 29:38 KJV

(38) Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.

Numbers 28:3 KJV

(3) And thou shalt say unto them, This is the offering made by fire which ye shall offer unto the LORD; two lambs of the first year without spot day by day, for a continual burnt offering.

Hebrews 7:27 KJV

(27) Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

[12tribes]

So the daily taken away is the daily ministry of Christ. People lost the knowledge of Christ as our mediator and went to the priest for forgivness. It was the Papacy that did this.

[Samie]

So the daily taken away is the daily ministry of Christ. People lost the knowledge of Christ as our mediator and went to the priest for forgivness. It was the Papacy that did this.

So when did the "taking away of the daily" occur and what abomination of desolation was set up 1290 days thereafter? Daniel was emphatic on time periods and the perceived fulfillment should exhibit the same.

[Samie]

Greetings Samie and others,

Originally Posted By: Samie

Welcome, brother.

From Scriptures: The little horn of Dan 8 = the little horn of Dan 7 = the vile person king of Dan 11:21,36 = the man of sin of 2 Thess 2:3,4 = the beast of Rev 13. If you have time to do so, please take time to consider MY POSITION HERE.

I appreciate the welcome. I have taken a copy of “Your Position” as detailed in the other thread and will consider this over the next few days. ...

I thought this might help. Here is an end time chart of events.

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

So the daily taken away is the daily ministry of Christ. People lost the knowledge of Christ as our mediator and went to the priest for forgivness. It was the Papacy that did this.

So when did the "taking away of the daily" occur and what abomination of desolation was set up 1290 days thereafter? Daniel was emphatic on time periods and the perceived fulfillment should exhibit the same.

Where do you get the idea the abomination of desolation is set up after the 1290 days is over? This is how the text reads

Daniel 12:11 KJV

(11) And from the time the daily shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

This is how the text without the added words in italics by the translators. It looks like the AOD is set up the same time the daily is taken away, not after.

[Aliensanctuary]

Dan 8:19-22

Quote:

Then he said, “I am here to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath. What you have seen pertains to the very end of time.

The two-horned ram represents the kings of Media and Persia.

The shaggy male goat represents the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes represents the first king of the Greek Empire.

The four prominent horns that replaced the one large horn show that the Greek Empire will break into four kingdoms, but none as great as the first.

If horns are kings or rulers, then this little horn with great power arises, as the Messenger said, at the very end of time.

Those who cannot read very well may believe that this little horn has already come and gone, so I suppose they also believe that the very end of time has come and gone also, and that we're living in the Kingdom right now.

Four kingdoms will arise during the Last Days, post resurrection. Why these four were singled out I do not know, but reappear they will to dominate the entire planet through a series of wars of conquest, unlike their tiny little impotent predecessors, all ruling only modest territories.

[Kevin H]

There are 3 ways how Bible writers and Mrs. White uses other Biblical texts:

1 (which they actually do not do much but which we are to do and Mrs. White tells us is our job), studying the text in it's immediate context. Learn all we can about what we can uncover as to how it would have been understood by the writer/editors and the original listeners.

2, Making historical analogies, applying the principles to other very similar situations. An example of this would be Isaiah 7:14 as a prophecy of Jesus. Do you realize how crazy this sounds exegetically? The context is King Ahaz is worried about 2 kings. Isaiah is trying to get him to trust God. Ahaz would rather choose worrying. So Isaiah says that a child will be born and before that child is at an age to make choices the kings that Ahaz worries about will no longer be a threat. Isaiah was not saying "King Ahaz, I know that you are worried about those two kings, but if you can just hold out for 500 years and in 500 years Jesus will be born and you will no longer have to worry about those two kings." No Isaiah was talking about, most likely the child his wife was to have, but at least a child being born around that time and that before the child was old enough to make choices those two kings will no longer be a threat, and thus telling the king he is wasting his time worrying about them. The birth of Jesus was another birth of God with us to deal with what we worry about and thus the principles behind the words that Isaiah was saying about a baby born in his day is a wonderful application to what Jesus did.

3. A "homilitacal" usage, where you are using the language of the text fits the situation even though it is not the context nor an application of the principles. A wonderful example is when Mrs. White says that we've been preaching the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboa. David was not thinking about the early Seventh-day Adventists when he was making his comments of Mt. Gilboa. Nor was Mrs. White applying the words to a very similar situation, however the words fit the situation she was dealing with.

Prophets usually do #2 and #3, rarely #1 but Mrs. White tells us that it is our job to do #1 first. We have a two step process. First ask "What did this mean?" then we can turn to "What does that mean."

The one thing that I like about the Antiochus misinterpretation is that they are trying to answer the question of "What did this mean." The problem is that Satan uses this to have them look at the wrong period of history.

Most of our discussions are like the comments I made on Isaiah 7:14. We have in mind applications of the text to similar situations and use those applications as the foundation to build our study on.

We have much about Daniel that we need to learn. We need to first start with step one. What did Daniel mean to Daniel and his school of disciples and their applications and purposes and message they were after while editing what they learned from their teacher into the book after Daniel's death and the early steps in the return from the exile and the trying to re-establish the temple and David King. (I forgot what year they gave up trying to re-establish the king, but I've mentioned it in past posts and we can study into it and find it) but Daniel has an exegeses for the years 538 BC (when Daniel died) through basically that generation. Greece could have been a world empire long before Alexander.

1. We need to read and re-read the article in the SDABC "The Role of Israel in Old Testament Prophecy"

2. We need to study Deuteronomy 4 which gives the two possible histories for Israel. One faithful and being in the land and one if unfaithful and leading to exile, repentance in the exile and how the exile should be the last days (other texts fill in some details, the exile should have ended in a second great exodus lead by the messiah). To a person living in ancient Israel the idea of an exile brought the same pictures to their mind as the Sunday law does to the Adventist mind.

We need to study the first part of Daniel in the context of Daniel 1-7 of this being the last 70 years of earth's history and the imminence of the coming of the messiah. We need to ask "What could have happened" and "What went wrong?" Daniel 8 is a transition text and Daniel 9-12 is the message for those who were going to return to the land in a lack luster exodus and the Messiah another 70 cycles away. And especially what it would have meant to those living between Daniel's death in 538 BC until they stopped trying to re-establish the David kingship.

An issue that we need to be aware of is proper application of the day-year principle. (actually is it day, month, half year, full year principle). There is the prophecy that is using the year day principle, but there are portions that are explaining specific time periods with in that period. Thus when we uniformly apply day-year to every time we see the word "Day" we end up applying the year-day twice. So we need to ask "Is this a cycle where we should apply the year day principle? Or Are we already with in a year day prophecy and it is breaking down events to specific days and years with in that prophecy and thus where day means day and year means year."

I hope this helps.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie and others,

No matter how we slice it, the Mt. Olivet prophecy starting with the setting up of the AoD will find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

This is the first time that I have heard anyone suggest that the 70-week prophecy is future.

The above is a common teaching held by some religious groups.

[Samie]

Hi Trevor;

The year-day principle is not supported by Scriptures. The two common verses used to support this, Num 14:34 & Ezek 4:6, SPECIFICALLY apply to what are said in those verses. As proof, all FULFILLED time prophecies in the Bible do not make use of this principle. Examples are Noah's 120 years = 120 years, 400 year-captivity of the Israelites in Egypt = 400 years when fulfilled, Egyptians plenty of 7 years = 7 years and that of 7 year-famine = 7 years when fulfilled, Elijah's no rain of 3-1/2 years = 3-1/2 years when fulfilled, 70-year desolation of Jerusalem = 70 years when fulfilled, etc.

In fact in the books of Daniel and Revelation, FULFILLED time prophecies have nothing to do with the year-day principle. Nebuchadnezzar was warned he will eat grass for 7 years and it was fulfilled 7 years as prophesied. In Revelation 9:5,6, it was prophesied under the events of the 5th trumpet that NO DEATH will occur for 5 months. Many scholars believed the 5th trumpet had already found fulfillment. Sadly, there is NO EXISTING evidence that there was a time when NOBODY died during a time span of 150 years.

As to the 70-week-prophecy in Dan 9, it is believed that he who shall "confirm the covenant with many for one week" (v27) refers to our Lord. But this is not correct. Why? Because, CLEARLY from Scriptures, he who shall "confirm the covenant with many for one week" is the one who shall be responsible for the setting up of the abomination of desolation, an act Scriptures specify to be that of one who is AGAINST God.

Quote:

NIV Daniel 9:27 "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Here's how Scriptures describe him who is responsible for the taking away of the "daily" who also "confirm[ed] the covenant with many for one week":

Quote:

Daniel 11:

31 "His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

36 "The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been determined must take place."

According to our Master Teacher Himself, the setting up of the "abomination of desolation" triggers a rapid succession of events culminating in His 2nd Coming (see Matt 24:15-31; Mark 13:14-27). These events are:

1. the great tribulation

2. unusual celestial phenomena (solar eclipse by day, lunar eclipse by night, meteoric swarm, etc.)

Note that the great tribulation will be shortened or no one will remain alive:

Quote:

Matthew 24:21-22 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now-- and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

This tells us the time period from the great tribulation to the 2nd coming is within a human lifespan, because IMMEDIATELY AFTER the shortened great tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena occur to be capped by the 2nd Coming.

Since the great tribulation will be triggered by the setting up of the abomination of desolation, and the taking away of the daily precedes the subject setting up, all time prophecies directly related with the "daily" (2300 days, 70 weeks, 1290 days, etc.) will all find fulfillment shortly before the 2nd Coming of our Lord.

In Christ,

Samie

[Kevin H]

Samie: First, I agree with you that our two "proof texts" are very weak arguments. Now, sadly it's late and I don't have time to build my case here, however there are several other references to the year-day principle in the Bible which we tend to not notice. Yet these unnoticed texts are a lot stronger than our proof texts. But may I especially call your attention to Leviticus 23.

Samie, study into the ancient cyclic thought. Books such as Henri Frankfort and others "Before Philosophy:The Intellectual Adventure of Ancient Man" University of Chicago Press (I cannot understand why the church does not get the publishing rights to this book and re-print it.) It would have you understand the day year principle and see how it was indeed in the culture of Israel and all the countries surrounding Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Frankfort Also look at the works by Thorkild Jacobsen and Mircea Eliade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorkild_Jacobsen and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_return_(Eliade)

Just because there are scholars among us who are experts in the thoughts of the theologians in the 1500s and does not see how the year-day principle fits with their field of expertise, does not give then the final word since we have those such as Frankfort and Thorkild who are scholars on the ancient world and they do find the year-day principle in their field of expertise.

A second short coming you have is to read into Bible the year-day principle places where it does not exist and then say "See it does not exist." The year-day principle fits in cyclic texts. There are other texts that we are reading year-day into, but where the text is either not talking about a cycle, or it is talking about specific days or months with in a bigger "year-day" cyclic prophecy.

[Aliensanctuary]

Perhaps "Last Days" should be read as "Last Millennia", which would then agree with the historical application of Daniel's prophecies. After all, a day is like a thousand years according to scripture, and there is obviously more support for that than for one day = one year.

If we read Daniel and Revelation carefully, we should see that these prophecies are describing End Times/Last Days events within a short time frame, not lasting thousands of years. If the AoD occurred several thousand years ago as some believe, then Christ has already come and gone with his chosen, leaving the rest of us to rot in hell.

The problem is that we have been misled by "prophets" who thought the End of the World was going to take place in the mid-1800's. That parlor trick of holding up a Bible with a mirror held to the mouth/nose to demonstrate breathing was not taking place convinced too many of the gullible who then started yet another denomination, this one based on a flawed understanding of prophecy. Sadly, one brain-washing leads to another, and continues to this day.

[Kevin H]

NO NO NO!!! Leviticus 23 and the book of Deuteronomy gives us the Hebrew cycles. For an Egyptian a day was the cycle of the sun (24 hours) and the cycle of the flooding of the Nile (Year). Leviticus 23 gives the Hebrew week: 6 days and the Sabbath. The two Growing seasons and Passover/Yom Kippur (thus half years) 6 years and the Sabbatical year and 6 Sabbatical years and the Jubilee (here Deuteronomy differs from Leviticus in that everything that happens in the Jubilee happens in the Sabbatical year and does not have the Jubilee).

Therefor the cycles are Day, Half year, Full year, and depending on the context, maybe a 7 year period. But most of our prophecies are based on the Deuteronomic Day-half year-full year applications.

A day = 1,000 years is not one of the options given in the context of the cycles. The context of that text is perspective. Besides, the word "Thousand" did not start out as a number. It meant a military or family unit, and was usually approximately consisted of about 10 people give or take. It was only later as a king started having military units of about 1000 people were there were traditionally about 10 members each that it took on the massive proportions. Thus There was a flexibility with the word thousands in the ancient world.

People's quoting of that text shows how people can sloppily read the Bible and take verses out of context and read into those verses things they are not saying.

In Deuteronomy 4 the Last Days are defined as the time during the exile that God's people turn to God and spread the Gospel so that the Messiah can take them home.

Deuteronomy 4 gives two possible histories of the Hebrews. One they live in the land and things get better, nations join them or reject them and they eventually get a wonderful king and with some ups and downs things just improve into heaven. Stay in the land and the world will come to you for the gospel. Or they are unfaithful. They get curses and the final curse is exile. While in exile they were to share with their neighbors their unfaithfulness and God's faithfulness. Thus the gospel will be spread and the Messiah would come to take them home. Go ye into all the world and spread the Gospel.

The Hebrews had 70 weeks of years under the house of David where the Sabbatical year was not kept and where they were not faithful. They went into exile for 70 years to make up for those un kept 70 Sabbaticals. The exile was to end with the Messiah coming to take them home.

They did not share the gospel with their neighbors. Daniel was trying to push this. That was the theme of Daniel 1-7 and somewhat 8. The 2300 days was in the context of only 2300 literal days left of Babylon's power and the need to spread the gospel so the Messiah can come and take them home.

Daniel 9-12 was that the last days were not fulfilled as predicted and that God was going to give them another 70 weeks of years in the land to do what they missed the first time and is focused on what would have happened had Jesus been accepted when he came.

Jesus was not accepted thus we again returned to exile theology were we are today. For us we re-apply the last days to our exile theology as the time where we finally are faithful and spread the gospel to our neighbors.

[JoeMo]

This is a great discussion. You guys have taken the scholarship of this subject far beyond anything that I could discuss competently here. I will say that I see things pretty much the way Samie does.

[hch]

Hi folks,

I just finished reading this thread from the first post to the present. There are many great thoughts that could go in a hundred different directions and never settle anything to everyone's satisfaction. And though it would be interesting to explore some of the avenues, there are some points that merit more attention than others.

For example:

The year-day principle is not supported by Scriptures. The two common verses used to support this, Num 14:34 & Ezek 4:6, SPECIFICALLY apply to what are said in those verses.

The Scriptures will confirm that "The year-day principle is not supported by Scriptures" in every instance where time measurements are cited.

But since a day can be a day or a thousand years in prophecy depending on the context, to conclude from Scripture that "The year-day principle is not supported by Scriptures" is to go to an extreme that is not supported by Scripture.

One of the examples that you recognize as oft quoted "proof" of the year-day principle is Ezekiel 4:6.

The context of Ezekiel's prophecy (SPECIFICALLY applied to what he said about the Temple) where the year-day principle is introduced: Babylon had toppled Jerusalem twice and Ezekiel was foretelling that it would do it again. And it did. And during the third siege of Jerusalem, Babylon destroyed the Temple.

From the context of Ezekiel's vision the year-day principle was linked to the destruction of the temple. Thus even if the year-day principle is not linked to every time prophecy in Scripture: it is linked to the Temple's destruction. And thus there is sufficient evidence to link the year-day principle to the Temple's restoration from Ezekiel 4:6.

I have not been getting into online discussions very much for the last year or so (too busy). But I did enjoy reading all of the posts here and if time permits, I will try to come back.

I do know a little about Bible prophecy. The twitter archives have my tweets from September 2011 through September 2012, where I tweeted 8 times that Pope Benedict XVI would not be pope after the spring of 2013. And as you know he was not -- resigned effective 2/28/13.

There is a wealth of information in Bible prophecy that we have yet to understand.

Blessings,

[hch]

Perhaps "Last Days" should be read as "Last Millennia", which would then agree with the historical application of Daniel's prophecies. After all, a day is like a thousand years according to scripture, and there is obviously more support for that than for one day = one year.

I have considered that thought too.

Jesus died Friday, rested in His grave Sabbath, and rose early on the third day. Here is an over simplification of these three days as 1000-year periods:

The Christian Church died in the first millennium when it was suppressed by the Church at Rome. The Church at Rome was in its grave in the second millennium for it was wounded to death in 1798. And early in the third millennium (2013), it has risen to go to its father: 2 living popes like the Son and the Holy Spirit awaiting Satan to join their trinity.

It is still early in the first day and the final events will be RAPID ONES

Food for thought

Blessings

[hch]

This is a great discussion. You guys have taken the scholarship of this subject far beyond anything that I could discuss competently here. I will say that I see things pretty much the way Samie does.

Hey JoeMo

It has been a while.

I agree that this topic is interesting, but Bible study is not TRUTH because we agree with the study or error because we disagree with the study. Popularity is not the measurement that God uses to judge Bible study.

And unfortunately when we get busy, we can get sloppy in our study. I know: I have to be careful of that.

There are some things that I have read in this topic that I do not see Scriptural evidence to support, but in every post that I have read, I see some nuggets worthy of contemplation.

Hopefully, I can follow this topic, but if I can only check it out on Sabbath, that will have to be.

Keep the faith,

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

Perhaps "Last Days" should be read as "Last Millennia", which would then agree with the historical application of Daniel's prophecies. After all, a day is like a thousand years according to scripture, and there is obviously more support for that than for one day = one year.

My comment above was tongue-in-cheek.

Mark 13:14-20

Quote:

“The day is coming when you will see the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing where he should not be.” (Reader, pay attention!) “Then those in Judea must flee to the hills.

A person out on the deck of a roof must not go down into the house to pack. A person out in the field must not return even to get a coat. How terrible it will be for pregnant women and for nursing mothers in those days. And pray that your flight will not be in winter.

For there will be greater anguish in those days than at any time since God created the world. And it will never be so great again.

In fact, unless the Lord shortens that time of calamity, not a single person will survive. But for the sake of his chosen ones he has shortened those days."

As we can all clearly see, immediately following the Abomination of Desolation, people in Judea must flee for their lives because there will be such destruction that, without the intervention of YHVH, no human could survive.

Do some still believe that the AoD occurred several thousand years ago and that nearly all humans were destroyed shortly thereafter, soon followed by the return of the Son of Man?

Mark 13:24-27

Quote:

“At that time, after the anguish of those days,

the sun will be darkened,

the moon will give no light,

the stars will fall from the sky,

and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.

Then everyone will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory. And he will send out his angels to gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.

So, YHVH, via Christ, predicted the events preceding the return of the Son of Man to the Earth:

AoD,

Flight from Judea

Greatest calamity to ever happen to this world

After that anguish the light of the sun and moon are obscured

Showers of falling stars as the earth is shaken

Then, the Son of Man arrives with great power and brilliant light

His Messengers gather the chosen ones still alive and rescue them from certain death

The events concerning the Four Beasts of the Last Days immediately precede the setting up of the AoD. Without a Resurrection, the four world-wide super-power Beasts of the Last Days would not rise to conquer the whole Earth.

[Guest sweng]

We don’t need a “year–day principle.” All we need to understand is the annual atonement restoration theme and the meaning of the great Shemita cycles.

Most important, it works for all of Daniel’s Prophecies.

To reject it would be dumb!

God told Moses that the Day of Atonement was to be an “everlasting statute” “to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins [to cover them over] once a year” (Leviticus 16:33-34).

That day was to be a Sabbath (Leviticus 23:32). Intriguingly, its sacredness began on the ninth day (and here it is) – the evening before the tenth (Leviticus 23:32). That is stunning. That sacred day, when sin would be covered over, then removed, started on the evening before. The 2300 evening and morning prophecy of Daniel 8:14 was given by Jesus as a partial response to Gabriel’s question of 8:13. “How long” or “until when” would the transgression of desolation occur? Jesus made it clear that the prophecy of the little horn (prophetically tied to the ram and he-goat) would not occur until the end of, or after, 2300 evenings and mornings were finished (8:17, 19). Then, in legal language tied to a covenant and Daniel 9, he described precisely when sin would be removed. That is atonement language when sin is covered over (by redemptive blood) and then removed. But, and this is so beautiful – there it is – related to these Sabbatical years, which in turn, tie to the Jubilee when everything is restored. We don’t need a “year–day principle.” All we need to understand is the annual atonement restoration theme and the meaning of the great Shemita cycles.

It then all remarkably comes into place.

Again, the word “days” is missing from the original in Daniel 8:14. It simply says: Until 2300 evenings mornings holiness vindicated (or adjudicated). That portrays a legal process that judicially resolves sin (and this is amazing) through the vindication of holiness. The word for vindication (adjudication) is nisdaq. It is a passive verb. Something makes it happen. This is now beautifully described in 9:24, where God’s people are to give up sin. When they do, everlasting righteousness (tsedeq – noun) comes in. Holiness is vindicated by God’s people giving up sin! It is the ultimate story of how He gets a bride. The love story that began in Daniel 9 (a prophecy), ends in 8:14!

http://endtimeissues.com/Articles/Article255-Year-Day%20Principle.html