Beware of wolves in Sheep's clothing that come here.

[Gregory Matthews]

Rossw:  You say:  " . .  . even those who identify as conservative SDA are considered wolves in sheep's clothing here."

That is a generalized statement that as written lumps all conservative SDA who post here as wolves in sheep's clothing.  Your statement is clearly false on its face.  In addition, I hardly think that you have enough background in a relationship with Club Adventist to be able to judge what we think.

People who post  here and are considered wolves in sheep's clothing are so judged on the basis of their individual conduct, their apparent motivation for posting here and the manner in which the participate in discussions.  They are not judged on the basis of their theology.  People who have the apparent sole motivation of promoting an agenda and/or converting others to their specific  doctrinal belief may be considered wolves in sheep's clothing.  But, even then the decision will be made on an individual basis.  Some people may act close to the line, but they do not pass over that line and they continue here.  Some of these people may even become considered to add value to our forum.

I am thinking right now of a person with whom I and many others disagree.  You might even say that our disagreement is also with   some of our early denominational leaders.  You might say that our disagreement stems from the fact that this person disagrees with a major SDA doctrine.  Well, in my thinking and that of others, that person makes a contribution to this forum.  None of us considers that person to be a wolf in sheep's clothing and that person is welcomed here.

The bottom line is that whether you or anyone else is considered a wolf in sheep's clothing will be made on an individual basis as to how you and/or others relate here on this forum.

This forum is funded privately.  If you cannot live with how it is run, establish your own forum and live by your  rules.

 

 

 

[Musicman1228]

1 hour ago, Rossw said:

Musicman, although I don't agree with your understanding of Scripture, even those who identify as conservative SDA are considered wolves in sheep's clothing here.

Can you give me one specific element of my understanding of 'Scripture' with which you disagree? I am interested isolating the difference in thought process between our methods of finding truth. (Just for fun)

[Rossw]

In addition, I hardly think that you have enough background in a relationship with Club Adventist to be able to judge what we think.--Greg

I've spectated for a while as a guest and have gotten a good idea on what you guys think even in the short time of participation.

People who post  here and are considered wolves in sheep's clothing are so judged on the basis of their individual conduct, their apparent motivation for posting here and the manner in which the participate in discussions.--Greg

Does your statement cause the inclusion of moderators and administrators? Forgive my forwardness but some of the comments to me in WO felt derogatory. Is it only because of  my outspoken criticism of the evidence?

I am thinking right now of a person with whom I and many others disagree.  You might even say that our disagreement is also with   some of our early denominational leaders.  You might say that our disagreement stems from the fact that this person disagrees with a major SDA doctrine.  Well, in my thinking and that of others, that person makes a contribution to this forum.  None of us considers that person to be a wolf in sheep's clothing and that person is welcomed here.--Greg

I love discussing theology with even those who dont agree with me but try and never get offended by what the other party thinks. It seems like the progressive topics are too sensitive to be discussed without the conservative side getting hammered. Greg, you may accept the more conservative beliefs here but when they venture out into sensitive issues the progressive side gets contentious.

10 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

The bottom line is that whether you or anyone else is considered a wolf in sheep's clothing will be made on an individual basis as to how you and/or others relate here on this forum.

 

 

Do you think of me as a wolf?

 

This forum is funded privately.  If you cannot live with how it is run, establish your own forum and live by your  rules.--Greg

I'd normally completely agree with that statement in isolation but the issue is when a proclamation of "worldwide SDA forum" is made with an official member of the GC as an administrator, "unofficial" isn't really true anymore. How many more members from NAD and GC participate here?Seeing the unopposed progressiveness in this forum is cringe worthy. Yes, if I don't like it here I could leave but the SDA label is on the forum and think the beliefs promoted by administration are not a proper representation of the SDA denomination. It is obvious the progressiveness of this forum is threatened by Biblical conservativism because of the editing and removing of disagreeable, inconvenient posts.

 

 

 

 

 

[Kevin H]

Rossw. This forum tends to be more moderate than progressive. Most of us believe that Mrs. White is a prophet. Most of us are creationists. Most of us believe and love the Investigative Judgment.

However not all of us are moderate, we have conservatives and progressives here. Not all of us believe that Mrs. White is a Prophet and some who believe she is a prophet believe that we should only interpret her via the ideas of people such as Elders Washburn and Wilkinson. Not all of us are creationists and among the creationists you have those who strongly believe in the 7 literal day creation week but not the 6,000 years, or are strongly under 10,000 years, or are very strict 6,000 years. Not everyone here believes or loves the Investigative Judgment.

We all agree that we can listen and discuss. I share the reasons why I love Mrs. White (but also share that I read a number of letters she and Willie wrote to Washburn and Wilkinson and others in their group), how I understand her and the Bible's teaching of creation, and evidence that supports the Investigative Judgment. How much more conservative can I get?  You seem to be demanding a "Proof Text" for the ordination of women. You don't realize that you are free to bring your extra Biblical ideas and force them on us, but don't want to listen to our ideas.

We, all of us, when we read something the writer wrote something with his background and experience. We read it with our background and experience. None of us read the same thing exactly the same. That is why the trinity has to include God working with our subjective as well as the objective manifestations of God the Father and God the Son.

You give us Bible verses with what you assume the verses mean from your background and things that you have heard and picked up here and there and you demand us to take YOUR assumptions about what the text says and we are not allowed to share how we came to our understanding of the text. Every understanding on the Bible is based on a higharchy of: tradition, hints, evidence and proof.  Most of the Bible is evidence. There is a HUGE difference between looking at a text and bringing in "Tradition interprets this text this way. That church counsel said that the texts means, Luther said this and Calvin said that and I just read in the weekly world report while waiting in line at the supermarket..." And "Linguist have pointed out that this word has these shades of meaning." "The geographical, historical, culture where this text was written believed" and what have we learned more about the literary, historical, geographical and cultural contexts. It is not reading into the Bible to point out "There is a Chiasm in the text and the structure points out..."  When you read and discuss scripture you have 2 choices. Read the words and have them submit to your imagination, or try to learn all you can about what those words mean and have them have authority over you.

[Kevin H]

Any way, anyone is free to share here what they believe as long as there is a respectful listening and give and take. When someone stops by and says "There is no investigative judgment" and never shows up again. When someone posts large amounts pointing where Mrs. White copied and does not let us explain how and why she copied and they take a quote out of context that make it looks like she's denying the copying and say that she's a fraud and refuses to look at the evidence and demands us to give up belief in her work and demands us to give up the Investigative Judgment, they are a wolf in sheep's clothing. . For someone to come here and demands us to accept their understanding of the nature of Christ. Or tell us that unless we accept their understanding of the nature of Christ that we are simply Fordites and liberals. Then they are wolves in sheep's clothing.

There are wolves in sheep's clothing here among the liberals and conservatives and if I was to just demand that you accept what I believe then I'd be one too.

Open discussion and a equal marketplace of ideas is welcome. Those who come to either belittle us, or to demand the acceptance of their ideas and just want to keep harping in a one sided discussion are the wolves in sheep's clothing. When you say "Tradition has told me that the Bible is against women's ordination because of these texts, and you are not allowed to give any evidence that the tradition is wrong in interpreting this text, unless you find a clear proof texts that says that I should not believe what tradition says about this text" that is what we are complaining about. You are free to hold and defend what ever view of women's ordination that you understand. The problem is that there is something that you have added to the words to reach your interpretation and you don't want us to question your extra Biblical information.

[Gregory Matthews]

My response to what Rossw asked is:

Yes, it includes the moderators and administrators.  No, it is not only because of your personal position.

Does your statement cause the inclusion of moderators and administrators? Forgive my forwardness but some of the comments to me in WO felt derogatory. Is it only because of  my outspoken criticism of the evidence?

[Gregory Matthews]

Rossw:  I consider myself to be a "middle of the road" SDA.  I think that this is supported for the following reasons:

1) I am considered to be conservative by some who know me.

2) I am considered to be liberal by others who know me.

3) In my personal life, I am generally more conservative in what I practice than in what I say.  IOW I tend to support in others more than I do.

[CoAspen]

I would say the majority here are middle of the road, based on 'my' interpretation of such. 

[Musicman1228]

Was Jesus 'middle of the road'? Did Jesus just 'try to get along'? Did the leadership of Israel consider Jesus 'middle of the road'?

Mat 10:34  "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

No peace but the sword? This doesn't sound like the Jesus of Christianity as taught by our church is the same Jesus that actually live here on earth, and taught the truth to His own disciples. It appears that HE indeed WAS a 'sheep in wolves clothing', because He not only taught the opposite of what was taught as truth in Israel while He was here, it also sounds like what Christians are taught today that Jesus said, is the opposite from what He actually taught. 

 

[hch]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2015 at 11:46 PM, The Wanderer said:

So who actually gets to say which ones are "wolves" and which ones are "sheep?" Or does everyone just do that on their own?

Food for thought:

"The words that Christ spoke to His disciples when He sent them forth the first time, will apply to the experiences of the worker today. 'Behold,' He said, 'I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves.' You will need to understand how to meet all classes. 'Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.' 'He that spared not his own Son, but delivered Him up for us all (black as well as white), how shall he not,' the apostle asks, 'with Him also freely give us all things?' Well might the apostle also ask, How shall we not all freely give Him our most devoted service?"   {PCO 43.2}

" Our laborers should be very careful not to give the impression that they are wolves stealing in to get the sheep, but should let the ministers understand their position and the object of their mission--to call the attention of the people to the truths of God's Word. There are many of these which are dear to all Christians. Here is common ground, upon which we can meet people of other denominations; and in becoming acquainted with them we should dwell mostly upon topics in which all feel an interest, and which will not lead directly and pointedly to the subjects of disagreement."--Review and Herald, June 13, 1912.

[Gregory Matthews]

Musicman asked, below:

There is a Biblical response that is quite simple:  There is a major difference between Musicman and I--Jesus proclaimed the truth about God.   Musicman and I are both contaminated with a limited understanding of God and by a mixture of truth and error, due to our human condition.

The Bible teaches that there are some issues upon which the people following Christ will disagree.  On those issues we are to devote ourselves to personal study and leave the ultimate resolution of them to the work of God, which may even be with the 2nd Advent.

For any of us to assume that we like Christ can expect all followers of Jesus to come to the same doctrinal understanding that we presently have is pure arrogance.  None of us have 100
% truth.  All of us have something to learn and need to grow spiritually.

The message of Christ was governed by the Holy Spirit.  Our message is tempered by the fact that we have much to learn and have not yet been taught all that we will learn in eternity. 

 

Was Jesus 'middle of the road'? Did Jesus just 'try to get along'? Did the leadership of Israel consider Jesus 'middle of the road'?

 

 

[Musicman1228]

On 6/27/2016 at 6:16 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Musicman asked, below:

There is a Biblical response that is quite simple:  There is a major difference between Musicman and I--Jesus proclaimed the truth about God.   Musicman and I are both contaminated with a limited understanding of God and by a mixture of truth and error, due to our human condition.

The Bible teaches that there are some issues upon which the people following Christ will disagree.  On those issues we are to devote ourselves to personal study and leave the ultimate resolution of them to the work of God, which may even be with the 2nd Advent.

For any of us to assume that we like Christ can expect all followers of Jesus to come to the same doctrinal understanding that we presently have is pure arrogance.  None of us have 100
% truth.  All of us have something to learn and need to grow spiritually.

The message of Christ was governed by the Holy Spirit.  Our message is tempered by the fact that we have much to learn and have not yet been taught all that we will learn in eternity. 

 

 

 

 

 

Joh 16:13  "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

And speaking to His own disciples Jesus said:

Joh 14:26  "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Now I recognize that in these verses Jesus is not speaking of truth related to String Theory in Physics, or Orbital Mechanics, or other 'truths' based in the wide panoply of human knowledge. Jesus is speaking about things related to Salvation, and in this He said we must know ALL THINGS related to WHAT JESUS TAUGHT HIS OWN DISCIPLES.

Joh 17:7  "Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;

Joh 17:8  for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

It is THOSE words that bring unity, and it is THIS Unity that we must have in order to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Joh 17:17  "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

And then Jesus showed them that they must do the same thing that He did in order to become SANCTIFIED:

Joh 17:19  "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

Joh 17:20  "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; (and this indicates His own disciples, not just anyone)

Joh 17:21  that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Joh 17:22  "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

Joh 17:23  I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

The only thing that can bring perfect unity within the Kingdom of Heaven is the Words of Jesus Christ that He gave to His own eyewitness disciples. And those words are confirmed by the guidance of the HOLY SPIRIT, that cannot teach any words that are in any way different from the words that Jesus received from His Father. The reason why there is disagreement in the 'church' (any religion) is because there is more than one 'truth' that is being taught by the practitioners of those religions. Why are their hundreds, if not thousands, of Christian denominations, much less other non-christian religions? Because in the Christian church we have settled on a faulty standard that contains more than one 'truth'; and this is called the Bible. There is more than one voice speaking, and being listened too, especially in the New Testament. If we would follow the teachings of Jesus as defined in the above verses, and use ONLY HIS WORDS, and not the words of a so-called, self-appointed apostle, there would be no question as to what the truth is, and therefore there would be UNITY, which is what Jesus prayed for in John 17.

[LifeHiscost]

21 minutes ago, Musicman1228 said:

If we would follow the teachings of Jesus as defined in the above verses, and use ONLY HIS WORDS, and not the words of a so-called, self-appointed apostle, there would be no question as to what the truth is, and therefore there would be UNITY, which is what Jesus prayed for in John 17.

.....as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.....2 Chronicles 20:20

If this was a Divine principle at the time it was transcribed, as prompted by the Holy Spirit, what would give following humans the understanding God no longer is following the same principles in our day and age, except for those Jesus made plain certain were being erroneously applied when He came the first time.

21 but Jesus became a priest with an oath by the One who said to Him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind, ‘You are a priest forever.’” 22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.…Hebrews 7 …

7Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those devoted to them.… his oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.…Hebrews 7

33Again, you have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ 34But I tell you not to swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne;…Matthew 5

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Musicman1228]

2 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

.....as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.....2 Chronicles 20:20

If this was a Divine principle at the time it was transcribed, as prompted by the Holy Spirit, what would give following humans the understanding God no longer is following the same principles in our day and age, except for those Jesus made plain certain were being erroneously applied when He came the first time.

21 but Jesus became a priest with an oath by the One who said to Him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind, ‘You are a priest forever.’” 22Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.…Hebrews 7 …

7Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those devoted to them.… his oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.…Hebrews 7

33Again, you have heard that it was said to the ancients, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ 34But I tell you not to swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne;…Matthew 5

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

Jer 8:8  "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

Jer 8:9  "The wise men are put to shame, They are dismayed and caught; Behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, And what kind of wisdom do they have?

Did God give Jehoshaphat authority to speak for Him? Jehoshaphat was NOT speaking for God here at this time, he was speaking for himself. Just because someone says that they are a prophet does not mean that it is the God of Heaven that is giving them visions or dreams.

Eze 13:9  "So My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will have no place in the council of My people, nor will they be written down in the register of the house of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel, that you may know that I am the Lord GOD.

God does not guarantee words of every prophet that speaks prophecy, that says they received dreams or visions, and CLAIM they came from God. The words that they speak must match perfectly with what God has spoken to servants that have been verified as having come from God. We are to "test the spirits", that is, the spirit that is behind what a person says, against some verifiable standard, and that standard IS the WORDS of God.

Mat 24:4  And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you.

Mat 24:5  "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many."

Mat 24:11  "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

Mat 24:12  "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold

Why would Jesus give these instructions to His own disciples if would be impossible for them to be deceived because Jesus had given them some sort of special protection? And how would FALSE prophets be able to deceive MANY if they were easily recognizable as false, and if the proper defense would be to simply say, "I believe in Jesus"? Could it be because these false teachers would be teaching a LAWLESS gospel that was NOT the gospel that Jesus taught to His disciple; it would not be the Gospel of the Kingdom (Matt. 24:14, Matt. 28:18-20). Jesus told John in Revelation EXACTLY what the requirements for becoming 'born again' into the Kingdom of God would be:

Rev 12:17  So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

And this is what I have been saying all along. People have accepted the words and teachings of others such as Paul, and Luke, and the writer of Hebrew, and others, as if they are the words of God, simply because they are included in the Bible. They may be in the Bible but they are not OF God.

And apropos of my comments, you are making my point for me by choosing to use texts that are NOT the very words of Jesus, but are words those that were eyewitnesses to what Jesus said. Do you KNOW who it was that wrote the book of Hebrews? It is clear from the language and context that the author WAS NOT an eyewitness - the words 'a better covenant' are a dead give away, because these words were NEVER uttered by Jesus to His own disciples.  This discounts the testimony in Hebrews as at the very least being suspect as to its origins and relationship to truth. This is a true statement because of what Jesus said in John 17: 20, as well as in John 16:13 seen above. Jesus guaranteed the words of His own disciples (John in Revelation was an eyewitness disciples). Jesus did NOT guarantee the words of anyone that was not with Him while He was on earth, and did not hear what He said first hand. How can God call to remembrance everything He said if you weren't there to hear it. Was Paul a disciple? NO. Was Luke? NO. Was the writer of Hebrews or 1st and 2nd Peter (Peter MAY have written 1st Peter, but certainly not 2nd Peter, because Peter was already dead when it was penned)? No. Was James the brother of Jesus one of His disciples and hear EVERYTHING Jesus spoke? (James the disciple did not write the book James that is in the Bible, his younger brother did)? No. Was Jude? (Another brother of Jesus.) NO. Why would you trust your very salvation and eternal life to the words of someone that was not personally authorized by God to transmit those words to you? Or does this even matter to you? I hope so.

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Musicman:  At least you are clear--You consider the Bible to be a faulty standard.  Hardly a Christian position.

 

 

[Musicman1228]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Musicman:  At least you are clear--You consider the Bible to be a faulty standard.  Hardly a Christian position.

 

 

Greg, thank you for saying I am clear in my position; that is a relief. But when did I say I was a Christian? I MAY still be a Seventh-day Adventist, except the church has moved away from the original understandings of Scripture that caused it to become the Kingdom of Heaven for the time of the end. But even that is no longer the case, since EGW took control of the church. Back to the original question: Was Jesus a Christian? Did Jesus come to this earth to start the 'Christian' church? The standard for me is (but has NOT always been, I had to grow into it) the Words and teachings that Jesus gave to His own eyewitness disciples, and that testimony that God gave to His Kingdom in the Law and the Prophets. Jesus confirmed this position TIME AND AGAIN in His own testimony (ex. Matt. 5:17, John 17 to name only two). Does this distress you, somehow? If so, why?

[Gregory Matthews]

When did you say that you were a Christian?   I did not make any comment as to whether or not you are a Christian.  I did make a comment as to a certain belief  of yours and stated that it was hardly a Christian belief.  That is not a statement about you.

I do not take personal distress to any belief that you might have.  God created you a free moral agent entitled to determine what you will believe and what you will reject.  Why should I be distressed as I see in you God's desire for you to make your personal decisions.  I may not agree with those decisions.  I may think that you are wrong.  But, God has given you that right and it is not mine to determine for you.

 

 

[Musicman1228]

So Greg, what I am hearing you say is that you have no problem with me saying that the entire Bible, cover to cover, IS NOT the inspired, inerrant, incorruptible word of God? I also have the understanding that what you believe is totally up to you, and I appreciate that idea. Yet, according to what Jesus said as recorded in John 17, we must become ONE, just as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE. This would seem to preclude your idea that while on earth this cannot happen. And the only way that this can happen is if we are (all of us) are in total agreement as to 'what is truth'. If it is impossible to know the entire truth of how salvation works the Jesus was a liar. We both know that Jesus IS NOT a liar. So where does that leave us. You are a thoughtful and well studied person, there is no doubt about that. There are many on this forum (in particular) that are the same. Yet there is much disagreement as to what form the 'gospel' should take, as we send that gospel into the world. Most believe that the gospel that should be taken to the world is the gospel of God as defined by Paul. A few (including me) believe that the gospel that MUST be taken to the world is exactly what Jesus said it should be, and that is The Gospel of the Kingdom. Most say that these two gospels are identical. A few (me included) have shown that these two gospels are IN NO WAY identical, in every respect. So where does that leave us? Do we (corporate) simply say 'live and let live', and God will sort it out when we get to Heaven? Yet this goes directly against what Jesus taught to His own disciples while He was here on earth. Who do we believe? What words are the ultimate arbiter of Truth? Is a unified Truth able to be achieved? Again, if you say 'no', then you are calling Jesus a liar. I know you have never knowingly done that. FAITH allows a person to believe a lie as if it is the truth, without accountability. Truth built on faith cannot be truth. When Jesus was here on earth did He 'live by faith'? Because if He did, then He was NOT the Son of God. Jesus KNEW His Father and Mother, having been sent by them to earth to "testify to the truth" (John 18:37), and behaved accordingly; trusting Them even unto death. We MUST also KNOW our Father and Mother. And this knowing cannot be 'by faith', because if it is then that proves we don't know Them at all. This is why to Gospel of the Kingdom is based in Sanctification through the Words of God and the Words of Jesus. We must be sanctified just as HE was sanctified. And we are "Sanctified in the Truth, THY WORD is Truth" (John 17:17). It is this understanding that brings UNITY.

[Buzzards]

On 7/8/2016 at 7:25 PM, Musicman1228 said:

Most believe that the gospel that should be taken to the world is the gospel of God as defined by Paul.

That is because it is;

Number 21:4

And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea,
to compass the land of Edom:
and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way
And the people spake against God, and against Moses,

Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness?
for there is no bread, neither is there any water;
and our soul loatheth this light bread.

And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people,
and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

Therefore the people came to Moses,
and said,
We have sinned,
for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee;
pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us.

And Moses prayed for the people.
And the LORD said unto Moses,

Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole:
and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten,
when he looketh upon it, shall live.

And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole,
and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man,
when he beheld the serpent of brass,
he lived.

And the children of Israel set forward,
and pitched in Oboth.
Oboth.
H178
Hebrew:אובTransliteration:'ôbPronunciation-obe
Definition:
From the same as H1 (apparently through the idea of prattling a father´ s name);
properly a {mumble} that {is} a water skin (from its hollow sound);
hence a necromancer ({ventriloquist} as from a jar):
- {bottle} familiar spirit.

just because the so called experts ""Self Appointed""" expounders of the Scriptures --- "Dummies"  for some ventriloquist  have so mangled the message of Paul,

what comes from these men; just Parroting the words of their Masters, is not the message written in the Epistles of Paul,

can you show us just 1 place Paul teaches different than Christ ????

now, I want the words of Paul, not what some self appointed know nuttin Preacher says Paul taught

[Musicman1228]

Buzz finished by saying, "now, I want the words of Paul, not what some self appointed know nuttin Preacher says Paul taught".

So do you include Jesus as one of these 'self appointed know nuttin Preacher'? 

Now in THIS vein, and since you brought it up, who were the two witnesses that actually SAW and then testified to Paul's 'conversion' on the road to Damascus? And which of the THREE versions (1 in Acts, and 2 in Paul's writings) of Paul's conversion are you going to use as the 'official' version?

[Buzzards]

all three of them; which one or 2 do you question, or do you question all three

 

why don't we start a thread on the Apostle and you can list them there and what you find objectionable in the record

[Kevin H]

On ‎6‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 11:44 PM, Musicman1228 said:

Was Jesus 'middle of the road'? Did Jesus just 'try to get along'? Did the leadership of Israel consider Jesus 'middle of the road'?

Mat 10:34  "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

No peace but the sword? This doesn't sound like the Jesus of Christianity as taught by our church is the same Jesus that actually live here on earth, and taught the truth to His own disciples. It appears that HE indeed WAS a 'sheep in wolves clothing', because He not only taught the opposite of what was taught as truth in Israel while He was here, it also sounds like what Christians are taught today that Jesus said, is the opposite from what He actually taught. 

 

Studies on the words of Jesus (especially when translated from Greek to Hebrew instead of Greek to Aramaic) shows that Jesus quotes the Bible a lot more than we recognize. But also that Jesus was a centralist who would quote things that he liked and pointed out things he disliked freely from all the Rabbinic schools. That was one of the issues that the Pharisees did not like about him. He did not stick to one school of thought (liberal or conservative) and stay with that school

Being a moderate is not being wishy washy. It is recognizing that Satan frequently has a ditch on the left and a ditch on the right with a straight narrow road between them.

[Musicman1228]

18 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

Studies on the words of Jesus (especially when translated from Greek to Hebrew instead of Greek to Aramaic) shows that Jesus quotes the Bible a lot more than we recognize. But also that Jesus was a centralist who would quote things that he liked and pointed out things he disliked freely from all the Rabbinic schools. That was one of the issues that the Pharisees did not like about him. He did not stick to one school of thought (liberal or conservative) and stay with that school

Being a moderate is not being wishy washy. It is recognizing that Satan frequently has a ditch on the left and a ditch on the right with a straight narrow road between them.

Nice! Although I prefer to not use cardinal directions when speaking of the Truth of God. It is more ALL ENCOMPASSING, surrounding those that already love and practice the Truth.

Joh 3:21  "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Note: that Jesus said we must practice the Truth FIRST, and THEN we will come to the light of righteousness.

And that road of which you speak is not necessarily a straight road, it is often a winding road that is accessed through the 'narrow' gate that leads us to Truth. 

Mat 7:13  "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Mat 7:14  "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

[Buzzards]

2 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

Nice! Although I prefer to not use cardinal directions when speaking of the Truth of God. It is more ALL ENCOMPASSING, surrounding those that already love and practice the Truth.

Joh 3:21  "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Note: that Jesus said we must practice the Truth FIRST, and THEN we will come to the light of righteousness.

And that road of which you speak is not necessarily a straight road, it is often a winding road that is accessed through the 'narrow' gate that leads us to Truth. 

Mat 7:13  "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Mat 7:14  "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Job ch 28

Surely there is a vein for the silver,
and a place for gold where they fine it.
...
There is a path which no fowl knoweth,
and which the vulture's eye hath not seen:

(them Dirty Birds of Rev ch. 18)

Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen,
and is become the habitation of devils,
and the hold of every foul spirit,
and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

The lion's whelps have not trodden it,
nor the fierce lion passed by it.
..
But where shall wisdom be found?
and where is the place of understanding?

Man knoweth not the price thereof;
neither is it found in the land of the living.

we must be living all the light we have before any new light will be given

 

[Musicman1228]

1 hour ago, Buzzards said:

Job ch 28

Surely there is a vein for the silver,
and a place for gold where they fine it.
...
There is a path which no fowl knoweth,
and which the vulture's eye hath not seen:

(them Dirty Birds of Rev ch. 18)

Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen,
and is become the habitation of devils,
and the hold of every foul spirit,
and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

The lion's whelps have not trodden it,
nor the fierce lion passed by it.
..
But where shall wisdom be found?
and where is the place of understanding?

Man knoweth not the price thereof;
neither is it found in the land of the living.

we must be living all the light we have before any new light will be given

 

What you just said 'in other words' is that we must DO the light before we can come to the 'new light' of Truth. And this is what the gospel of Paul teaches, in that all we have to do to be 'born again' is live the light we have at the moment, and the grace of Christ will do the rest for us. Is this NOT what you believe?  If it is, then what you just said is opposite of what Jesus told Nicademus in John 3:21. There Jesus said that we must DO the Truth before we can come to the light. The light of which Jesus is speaking is righteousness. And NOT His righteousness, otherwise our DOING of Righteousness would not matter in the least. Please look at Rev. 3:21 for confirmation.