GYC Vs “The One Project” – A shocking fact about our shaking church

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

"Jesus. All" is a method to avoid teaching all doctrines. Very deceitful but subtle!

This would create such kindda magic mantra: Let's talk more and more about Jesus... and less and less about doctrines.

THE ONE PROJECT has a focus on centering doctrine in Christ and what doctrine tells us about God.

It also suggests that the critical first step in evangelization is to convert people to be a follower of Christ and that conversion to a specific doctrinal position without a conversion to Christ not the way to spiritual growth.

Why is this important? Because in one sense, we seem to me to be living in a post-Christian era in which we need to bring people to a knowledge of and a commitment to Christ. This is different from that of the time in the 1800's in which our denomination arose. At that time we were often dealing with people who had at least a superficial knowledge of and commitment to Christ. Now, things are different.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

If you keep complaining that SDA should have no difference, why don't you try another denomination near you? Then your complaints would be greatly appreciated. But not while you're still as a SDA member.

Well, you have certainly personalized it.

You have clearly misrepresented me. In doing so you have called into question your ability to accurately describe The One Project.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

"Jesus. All" is a method to avoid teaching all doctrines. Very deceitful but subtle!

This would create such kindda magic mantra: Let's talk more and more about Jesus... and less and less about doctrines.

Did you even read my citations from their book?

Quote:

. . . we need to make it clear that our doctrine describes Jesus as the revealer of God's character. if our doctrine doesn't clarify a loving God as displayed by Jesus while He was on earth, we need to re-look at our doctrine. {page 66}

Did you understand it?

There is nothing in my citation that suggests that we should talk less about doctrine. It simply tells us that our doctrines should be centered in God and what our doctrines tell us about God. Do you understand what this means?

In your statement above, you have misrepresented what The One Project is about. Why is this? Is it because you do not understand? Is it because you are ignorant of what The One Project teaches? I do not know. I only know that you have not been accurate.

[Tom Wetmore]

To "mel20"

It seems to me to be really strange that a movement to emphasize Jesus should evoke such intense negative reaction from anyone claiming to be a Christian.

If preaching Jesus and making Him central to all we do and teach provokes what seems to be serious anger, what does that say about the one getting so upset? For me it is very difficult to see any reason to give any consideration to what that person says.

Why does proclaiming Jesus upset you so much?

[JoeMo]

I heartily agree with everything Gregory and Tom are saying. When bringing denominational doctrine is more important than bringing Jesus to people, it comes off sounding like we are saved by our denomination rather than by the grace of Jesus Christ. Why do we focus on bringing people to Adventism rather than relationship with Jesus? Is it because we think we are better than others? Do we need more members and more money to sustain the church? Why do we focus 80 - 90% of our money trying to evangelize other Christians rather than those who have never heard of Christ? Why do we bad-mouth other Christian denominations or movements within our own denomination? It is equivalent to shooting our own wounded. What makes some of you feel so superior in your faith and self-righteousness that you can justify personal attacks on fellow believers? Before you attempt to remove the speck from your brother's eye, make sure you have removed the plank from your own? YHVH and Jesus are the God of all Christians, regardless of denomination. If we truly believe that when we are born again, and are all baptized into Christ and filled with His Spirit, why don't we let the indwelling Spirit do His work rather than indoctrinating others with Adventism? If the Holy Spirit does what Jesus claimed He would do, why do we interfere with exclusionary doctrines? "You aren't a real Christian unless you don't smoke, don't drink, don't eat pork (or any other animal flesh if you want to be translated), don't be gay, don't go to church on Sunday and don't support female pastors. Oh by the way, if you have a single unconfessed sin in your entire life after being baptized, you will literally be toast". Doesn't sound like the "Good News" to me.

I have seen miracles in many different churches. If God only looks favorably on Adventists, why do these miracles occur? Because Jesus dwells with all those who truly seek Him, regardless of denomination. Adventisn doesn't save us, cure us, deliver us, or protect us; the blood of Jesus does.

[CoAspen]

Tell us how your really feel!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

just for clarification, is "doctrine" the same as "fundamental beliefs"?

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

just for clarification, is "doctrine" the same as "fundamental beliefs"?

Fundamental beliefs will be doctrine.

A specific doctrine often is not a fundamental belief, but it may be.

One could define the so-called 28 in a manner to say that some of then are not fundamental There was a time when our fundamental beliefs were considered to be five (5).

By one definition, I would define our fundamental beliefs as thirteen (13).

By another, I would limit it to a lessor number.

I accept all of the above, but only within a context as to how they are defined.

Aren't you glad that I have clarified it for you?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

LOL

the reason I asked involves these quotes that you gave:

Quote:

Anytime a group of people use doctrine to define themselves rather than establishing doctrine to explain and clarify God, they will yield to the real temptation of considering themselves separate from and better than the rest of the world. And this will ultimately do damage to God's character, no matter what truth they may possess. {page 62}

* * * * * *

The challenge for the Seventh-day adventist. Church in the 21st century is to avoid using doctrine to define and separate ourselves. Instead, we need to make it clear that our doctrine describes Jesus as the revealer of God's character. if our doctrine doesn't clarify a loving God as displayed by Jesus while He was on earth, we need to re-look at our doctrine. {page 66}

* * * * *

I also believe that our church has sometimes yielded to the temptation to make our doctrines more about us than about our God. And I think that's one reason why there are more ex-Seventh-day Adventists than Seventh-day Adventists in the United States today. {page 67}

do you think all 28 "fundamental beliefs" reflect the nature and character of God? I don't...it seems to me only a handful do that. I'm wondering if perhaps mel was thinking that since the One Project quotes didn't specifically relate to *all* of the fundamental beliefs, that the One Project was suggesting they be thrown out? (don't know if that's really what mel was thinking/feeling, but just guessing...)

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Tell us how your really feel!

As you know from previous posts, it is in my nature to mince my words.

[debbym]

Quote:

Why do we focus on bringing people to Adventism rather than relationship with Jesus?

i had thought the cause of this was....

When the movement was young it was speaking to church members of various denominations who were already knowledgeable about Jesus, who already had a relationhsip with Jesus.

what was new to these already Christians was the emphasis on the second coming and becoming ready... which was redefining being Christian, by being now prepared to meet God face to face while still living. this additionally involved experiencing the power of God one's relationship to God in Sabbath keeping, and eventually it meant discovering many more the blessings God was desiring to give his Children.

and these blessings were in part... more clear biblical understanding, healthy living and knowledge of God's Character expressed in world missions, family relationships, life style, and evangelism and education, and medical work and on and on...

now we find now a world that is dying for a lack of the blessings that come from just knowing Jesus, and every other blessing follows having this relationship...

it is a real turn around from 1844.

[Gregory Matthews]

Debbym: You are on target. In the 1800's the people who were attracted to the Milerite Movement were already Christians and typically church members who wanted to be ready for the coming of the Lord. It was not thought important to convert to Christ at that stage. It was only important to convert to a soon coming Lord (2nd Advent).

Following the so-called Great Disappointment, the "shut door" idea took hold. Probation was closed. No one could be converted. So, for a while there was no sense of evangelistic mission in those early days.

The earliest set of "fundamental beliefs" that we developed were five (5). They were all distinctive beliefs that showed how we differed from other denominations. None of them were at the central core of the Christian faith. Experientially, from our perspective, they did not have to be. It was Christians who had formed the major part of the Milerite Movement. They did not have to be taught those core issues.

We live today in a post-Christian era. We can no longer assume that the people we meet are Christian and schooled in the core beliefs of Christianity. We as a denomination are coming to realize that as we evangelize, we must preach Christ first and foremost. Only after we have brought them to Christ should be get into other doctrinal issues. When we do that, we must focus on how our doctrines present an image of God.

If our doctrinal presentation does not present an accurate picture of the God who is active in human life, we have failed.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

When the movement was young it was speaking to church members of various denominations who were already knowledgeable about Jesus, who already had a relationhsip with Jesus.

what was new to these already Christians was the emphasis on the second coming and becoming ready... which was redefining being Christian, by being now prepared to meet God face to face while still living. this additionally involved experiencing the power of God one's relationship to God in Sabbath keeping, and eventually it meant discovering many more the blessings God was desiring to give his Children.

and these blessings were in part... more clear biblical understanding, healthy living and knowledge of God's Character expressed in world missions, family relationships, life style, and evangelism and education, and medical work and on and on...

now we find now a world that is dying for a lack of the blessings that come from just knowing Jesus, and every other blessing follows having this relationship...

I just read that yesterday...

[mel20]

I heartily agree with everything Gregory and Tom are saying. When bringing denominational doctrine is more important than bringing Jesus to people, it comes off sounding like we are saved by our denomination rather than by the grace of Jesus Christ. Why do we focus on bringing people to Adventism rather than relationship with Jesus? Is it because we think we are better than others? Do we need more members and more money to sustain the church? Why do we focus 80 - 90% of our money trying to evangelize other Christians rather than those who have never heard of Christ? Why do we bad-mouth other Christian denominations or movements within our own denomination? It is equivalent to shooting our own wounded. What makes some of you feel so superior in your faith and self-righteousness that you can justify personal attacks on fellow believers? Before you attempt to remove the speck from your brother's eye, make sure you have removed the plank from your own? YHVH and Jesus are the God of all Christians, regardless of denomination. If we truly believe that when we are born again, and are all baptized into Christ and filled with His Spirit, why don't we let the indwelling Spirit do His work rather than indoctrinating others with Adventism? If the Holy Spirit does what Jesus claimed He would do, why do we interfere with exclusionary doctrines? "You aren't a real Christian unless you don't smoke, don't drink, don't eat pork (or any other animal flesh if you want to be translated), don't be gay, don't go to church on Sunday and don't support female pastors. Oh by the way, if you have a single unconfessed sin in your entire life after being baptized, you will literally be toast". Doesn't sound like the "Good News" to me.

I have seen miracles in many different churches. If God only looks favorably on Adventists, why do these miracles occur? Because Jesus dwells with all those who truly seek Him, regardless of denomination. Adventisn doesn't save us, cure us, deliver us, or protect us; the blood of Jesus does.

...There is nothing new here. Right after anyone joined the SDA church there must be an immediate split into 2 group of Adventists:

Group 1 says: "Welcome the worldwide SDA. This church is all about [being quiet] Because we are not better nor holier than non SDA. Let them alone with whatever they believe... that's not our business. Jesus loves non Adventists too and indeed they also will go to heaven no matter what they believe as long as they have Jesus." (Once saved always saved... Do whatever sin you want, but you still be saved, anyway... no matter what)

Group 2 says: "Welcome to the worldwide Advent movement. No denomination will saves us. Only Jesus is our Saviour. But through all ages God should always have and raise up a certain group of His people... not for the chosen's arrogance or exclusiveness but for His special purpose. In the past, so many people (not related to Israelite/Jewish) that keep their sincere faith to the same Living God of Israel. Certainly God won't reject them. But as a nation God has chosen Israel. For what? Exclusiveness, "Denominational" arrogance and pride to be as an Israel, right? Ahh...you know the answer!

...God will be able to raise up another group of people to proclaim His last message. The more Adventists keep silent, the more the stone will cry out."

* * *

Btw, Adventist church won't save us. But, praise the Lord...the Blood of JESUS saves us (if we want). Amen.

[mel20]

* * *

In the closing work of God in the earth, the standard of His law will be again exalted. False religion may prevail, iniquity may abound, the love of many may wax cold, the cross of Calvary may be lost sight of, and darkness, like the pall of death, may spread over the world; the whole force of the popular current may be turned against the truth; plot after plot may be formed to overthrow the people of God; but in the hour of greatest peril the God of Elijah will raise up human instrumentalities to bear a message that will not be silenced. . . .Today, as in the days of Elijah, the line of demarcation between God's commandment-keeping people and the worshipers of false gods is clearly drawn. ”How long halt ye between two opinions?“ Elijah cried; ”if the Lord be God, follow Him: but if Baal, then follow him.“ 1 Kings 18:21.

[Gregory Matthews]

Mel, it is you who is doing exactly what you accuse another of doing.

I suspect that you know nothing about the spiritual journey that the one you accuse has taken. You know nothing about his spiritual struggles. In a pious stance you tell us of your prayer for him and your pious words show us that they do not come from God. Rather they come from another source. God would not be telling us of prayer that in essence says that one should hate Adventism so that they may grow in Biblical understanding.

You talk about a judgmental attitude and in doing so reveal your own.

What you have posted is outside the boundaries of CA and a moderator needs to bring you in check and probably give you time to go and sit in a corner before you are allowed to post here again.

[Woody]

I've not followed this heated discussion. But if the movement is swaying away from the GYC approach .... I am pleased

[JoeMo]

Mel,

I don't hate Adventism - I love it. It is the judgmental attitude that many Adventists - like yourself - who judge and condemn those who have any opinions or views outside of the historic Adventist box that I don't care for. As Gregory pointed out, Your judgement of me is as offensive as my alleged judgement of Adventism. I don't judge Adventism, I honor it and lift it up - not just in the same way you do. I remain here because I love the church that brought me to Jesus to begin with. But I love Jesus more than I love the Church.

Others,

Thank you for turning me on to ProjectOne. I am in the process of corresponding with them.

[mel20]

The One Project is always on the top list of “JESUS? YES. HIS TRUTH? NO” bandit clubs list.

SDAs outside USA, Core Adventists or GYC that first complained about The One Project? This is a big NO NO. Don't start any defamation, please! You better see the “cold war” between the Emergent Church movement vs Bible believers Protestantism in the Christian world in general.

Most of the SDA have no idea of what The One Project is all about. But since the great controversy between Emergent Church supporters vs those who maintain Sola Scriptura becomes more and more intense...and seem uncontrollably, this has been creating such a huge shaking among Christianity in general.

Can God use non-Adventists to share the Truth, especially to reveal what's all about The One Project?

Hopefully every SDA would understand that NONE of Adventist involved in making the 'BANDIT LIST'. No. Never! This updated list is all about so many “Christian clubs” which still accepting Jesus but keep denying His Truth. Sometimes it's simply called as “JESUS? YES. HIS TRUTH? NO" bandit list.

Even they keep persuading Adventist Youth to believe that The One Project is still on the top list of the most evil club of “JESUS? YES. HIS TRUTH? NO” bandit. Those Non-SDA Bible-Believers pictured this as a child that only want the benefit of his rich parents, but always rebellious and show no respect in obedience to his parents, but he's rejoicing together along with his evil bandit friends at the expense of his mourning parents.

Speaking of The One Project, those non-adventist Bible-Believers also revealed the facts (not merely observing anymore) that One Project was specifically designed for politically correctness only, prosperity gospel, how to be nice and cool and not to offend anybody. YOU WILL NEVER HEAR THE UNFOMFORTABLE MESSAGE OF SIN, GOD'S JUDGMENT, REBUKE, WARNING AND THE SECOND COMING. The OneProject becomes very orthodox about “Once saved always saved”. That's why they never preach about what is the meaning of sin. Why Jesus died if all sin is now acceptable? As long as you are cool and nice that's enough... but stop indoctrinating others.

This 2 hours documentary film describes the roots of the emergent church movement http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHjpgsh_TZ8 and once again, none of SDA involved in creating this documentary. But those people were the first to encourage us...that there is something to think about The One Project: “The One Project never clearly describe what is right vs wrong because they believe that the only sin is to call something sin.”

[Tom Wetmore]

Moderator Note:

"mel20", read my PM to you. I am locking this topic until you do so.

[JoeMo]

I don't think people who have truly embraced the grace and forgiveness offered by Christ view it as a license to sin - at least I don't know people like that - regardless of Christian denomination. The Law show us what God's standards are; it show us what sin is.

But the law shows no grace; it has no mercy. Only Jesus shows grace and mercy. Grace includes the power to overcome; and hatred of sin. Things that used to be attractive are now loathsome. That doesn't mean that all temptation is removed - especially from people who have a natural or nurtured predisposition to certain behaviors generally viewed as sin (like addictions or certain sexual behaviors). Being saved from eternal death does not mean that you instantly quit sinning; even if that is what one desires. Character perfection is a process of a lifetime for most people. I know it has been for me for over 50 years now.

Talk is made of "Jesus people" proclaiming "once saved always saved". I would like to modify that to say "Once saved, always saved - as long as you want to be saved". We all know people who were fervent believers at one time; but who now - due to discouragement or serious backsliding - say "I don't need God any more" or quit believing in God altogether. If that is indeed their choice, Jesus is not going to drag them into heaven kicking and screaming.

Everyone has a different starting point in their relationship with Jesus; but we all have a common end-point; and that is living with Him forever. In the end, whether one is a GYC type person or a ProjectOne type person, we are lead to the same place - trusting in Jesus' grace and cooperating with His Spirit to will and to do His good will. Whether we overcome the hard way or the easy way; as long as we overcome; what's the difference? I prefer the easy way (trusting in Jesus to change me into His image) rather than the hard way (letting the church or relying on my own strength of will) to reflect His image) because - well, it's EASIER! My personal experience is that I have more victory being obsessed with Jesus than I do being obsessed with myself and overcoming my shortcomings on my own.

[Gerr]

I don't think people who have truly embraced the grace and forgiveness offered by Christ view it as a license to sin - at least I don't know people like that - regardless of Christian denomination. The Law show us what God's standards are; it show us what sin is.

That is true on the surface, but the end result of the "once-saved-always-saved" no matter what you do theology, in practicality gives one license to sin.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

the end result of the "once-saved-always-saved" no matter what you do theology, in practicality gives one license to sin.

In practicality, or theory? Like I said before, I honestly don't know anyone who, once truly feeling and embracing the love of Christ and His all-saving grace, that use it as a "get out of hell free" card and double their efforts to rebel against His Kingdom. I understand that some do give up the "fight".

I say "fight" because it is not easy to constantly and continually rely on the grace and virtues of Christ rather than vainly imagine that we have anything to add to or subtract from our salvation besides accepting it as a free gift. The devil is always out there to remind us of how unworthy we are, and how we should have done this or not have done that.

If you think about salvation and envision the glory of God compared to our own pitiful broken state, it's hard to understand - sometimes hard to believe - why God would be so gracious to us. That's the mystery of salvation to me. Of course, the answer lies in "God so loved the world...".

[CoAspen]

Agree. I was raised to think that anyone who believed in 'once saved always saved' believed that they could sin when ever they wanted to after that, with out fear of loss.

But, as time went by, I never actually met anyone who believed that way. In found out it was an SDA problem with believing, really believing, that they were saved when they accepted Christ.

[Gail]