GYC Vs “The One Project” – A shocking fact about our shaking church

[Johann]

Unity: There is something that you do not understand. As far as the overall operation of the various sections of the SDA Church is concerned, the Division WORKING POLICY is the governing document, not the CHURCH MANUAL.

You are saying that the CHURCH MANUAL contains regulations which apply to the local church, and it is up to the local church to follow these guidelines.

Then the Division has its own WORKING POLICY giving the guidelines for them how the Division officers "govern" their work as "bumpers" between the GC and the local Unions.

Unity seems to claim that the CHURCH MANUAL contains all that is needed to rule and subdue the local church and its members to full submission.

Is that fully in line with what Ellen White is saying?

[Johann]

Quote:

“It takes the nail scarred hands of Jesus” to hold the church together despite our differences. Ken Denslow, advisor the the president

From NAD NewsPoints

[Unity]

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You are saying that the CHURCH MANUAL contains regulations which apply to the local church, and it is up to the local church to follow these guidelines.

Yes.

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Then the Division has its own WORKING POLICY giving the guidelines for them how the Division officers "govern" their work as "bumpers" between the GC and the local Unions.

There are several organizational levels within the Church leading from the individual believer to the worldwide organization of the work. Membership units in each of these levels periodically convene formal business sessions known as constituency meetings or sessions. (The constituency meeting or session of a local church is generally referred to as a business meeting.) In Seventh-day Adventist Church structure, no organization determines its own status, nor does it function as if it had no obligations to the Church family beyond its boundaries. - Page 29

The Church Manual also defines the relationship that exists between the local congregation and the conference or other entities of Seventh-day Adventist denominational organization. No attempt should be made to set up standards of membership or to make, or attempt to enforce, rules or regulations for local church operations that are contrary to these decisions adopted by the General Conference in session and that are set forth in this Church Manual. - Page 18

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Unity seems to claim that the CHURCH MANUAL contains all that is needed to rule and subdue the local church and its members to full submission.

I'm saying it appears to me as a necessary ingredient. One that has a pattern of being left out.

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Is that fully in line with what Ellen White is saying?

“God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority.”—9T 261

[Gregory Matthews]

Unity said:

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The problem isn't independent ministries. It is that their exist those that don't uphold the authority of the Church Manual, our stated common beliefs, the process of discipline, appropriate reasons for discipline, etc. And there are those in dependent ministries that don't uphold parts of it or any of it. Yet their Conference, their Union, and the General Conference does nothing!!!

The above was the overall context of my comment that followed.

The context was not limited to the local congregation. The context included the Conference, The Union and the General Conference.

It was in that context that I commented that Unity did not understand the role that the Division Working Policy has.

This is what I said:

Quote:

As far as the overall operation of the various sections of the SDA Church is concerned, the Division WORKING POLICY is the governing document, not the CHURCH MANUAL.

I stand by that statement. In the context that I said, the Working Policy governs, not the Manual.

Further, as applied to the Church Manual, the Local Conferences have the ability to proscribe/prescribe many (not all) of the functions of the local congregation. In many cases the local Conference can adapt the Manual to local conditions and in effect make change to what the Manual says.

I say again: Unity does not really understand the role that the Church Manual has and the role of other documents.

[debbym]

Quote:

Like I have pointed out, it is easy to see open sin within our churches. It IS FULLY MANIFESTED. Perhaps not in all of the SDA churches in the world, but the pattern I have noticed is that it is common. As I have shown the NAD and GC are doing nothing about it. The pattern I have noticed that the conferences and local churches also believe it is OK to not apply the procedure of discipline that is clearly given in the The Bible, Ellen White's writings, and the Church Manual. I have yet to find a church that in deed follows this procedure.

This, in addition to the lack of other things that are ignored in the Church Manual, creates divisions. We are inconsistent. Ellen White predicted what would happen. She also says the result is that God's face has turned from us. Many can feel it but they can't discern the reason. We have many different ideas, many of which are at the least partially correct but lack any source of authority from God. Here is an authority that is backed by The Bible, Ellen White, and the Church Manual.

Has anyone here responding to me about it actually read the one document that actually unifies us as a Church denomination?

i understood that there were Adventist members in good standing in another part of the world from the Pacific NW USA, that were practicing polygamy. it is in the bible and culturally it was the norm in their community, an d they were accepted as members in good standing.

i believe their are members here in ca who would have felt it their duty to go break up those households, and hold them at arms length from each other and say, bad bad people, stop this.

those who have labored spiritually for those who are vastly different, in different lands, languages and cultures bring home from the mission lands a sense of God's love for everyone now matter how different, which we need. we send adventist university students on mission trips to broaden their understanding of God's love for a broader range of humanity, in thinking and culture and experience and circumstances of birth, that are different from them so they can more fully grasp God's love for them, and it happens.

[Unity]

The fact that the Unions, Divisions, and GC do nothing about clear violations of the Church Manual that occur in the local churches and their Conferences is why I include them. The Church Manual also states that The content of each chapter is of worldwide value and is applicable to every church organization, congregation, and member. As for the Working Policy, where can church members find a copy so we can read through it and verify what it says?

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Further, as applied to the Church Manual, the Local Conferences have the ability to proscribe/prescribe many (not all) of the functions of the local congregation. In many cases the local Conference can adapt the Manual to local conditions and in effect make change to what the Manual says.

Wrong, the Church Manual states:

The General Conference through the years voted important changes concerning the Church Manual. Realizing the importance of conducting the worldwide work of the Church “decently and in order,” the 1946 General Conference in session voted that “all changes or revisions of policy that are to be made in the Manual shall be authorized by the General Conference session.”—General Conference eport, No. 8, p. 197 (June 14, 1946).

The 2000 General Conference in session authorized the reclassification of some existing Church Manual material into the Notes section as guidance and examples rather than mandatory material, and approved the process for making changes. Changes in the Church Manual, except for the notes and editorial changes, can be made only by action of a General Conference in session, where delegates of the world church have voice and vote. If a local church, conference, or union conference/mission wishes to propose a Church Manual revision, it should submit its proposal to the next constituent level for counsel and study. If that level approves the proposal, it submits the suggested revision to the next level for additional evaluation. If the various levels approve the proposal, it eventually comes before the General Conference Church Manual Committee, which considers all recommendations. If the Church Manual Committee approves a revision, it prepares it for presentation at an Annual Council and/or General Conference session.

Revision of a note follows the same procedure. The General Conference Executive Committee may approve changes to the notes at any Annual Council.

The Church Manual Committee reports proposed nonsubstantive editorial changes to the main content of the Church Manual to an Annual Council of the General Conference Executive Committee, which may give final approval. However, in the event the Annual Council determines by one-third vote that an editorial change substantively alters the meaning of a passage, the proposed change must go to the General Conference session.

And again, the Church Manual states:

The standards and practices of the Church are based upon the principles of the Holy Scriptures. These principles, underscored by the Spirit of Prophecy, are set forth in this Church Manual. They are to be followed in all matters pertaining to the administration and operation of local churches.

Taken together this means that Local Conferences have no such power to do as you say. If the Working Policy says they do, then it should be no wonder why their is so much disunity. Now where can I find a copy of the Working Policy?

[Unity]

What does the Church Manual necessarily say about what should be done about those already in Polygamous marriages when they join?

I don't recall anything. If that's is true then the local church or conference can decide what is required, if anything, before they vote them in.

As for entering into a Polygamous marriage while being a church member, I do recall it necessarily saying that they should be dismembered for that. It is clear that entering into marriage involves one male and one female. So clearly adding to your spouses is wrong and a purposeful violation of the Church Manual. Making a commitment before one becomes a Church Member is different.

[Gregory Matthews]

Unity said:

Quote:

Taken together this means that Local Conferences have no such power to do as you say. If the Working Policy says they do, then it should be no wonder why their is so much disunity. Now where can I find a copy of the Working Policy?

Unity, you remind me of a person who read a book on chemistry, but had never been into a lab and performed any of the experiments.

You have read a book--the CHURCH MANUAL. But, you do not have the experience to be able to properly evaluate it.

Working Policy: The General Conference has one and so does each of the Divisions.

On this subject, I suggest that you read the article: "Doctrines, Teachings, and Policies," authored by Calvin B. Rock and published in the ADVENTIST REVIEW, of November 28, 1991. As Dr. Rock said in that article:

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Division policies . . . consist of a repetition or modification of GC policies adjusted to meet the needs of the region involved.

[Johann]

The General Conference at present has this to say about the history of the Church Manual:

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As the church worldwide grew rapidly in the early twentieth century, it increasingly recognized the need for a manual for worldwide use by its pastors and lay members. In 1931, the General Conference Committee voted to publish a church manual. J. L. McElhany, later president of the General Conference, prepared the manuscript, which was published in 1932.

The opening sentence of the preface of that first edition observed that "it has become increasingly evident that a manual on church government is needed to set forth and preserve our denominational practices and polity." Note the word preserve. This was no attempt to suddenly create and impose upon the Church a whole pattern of church governance. Rather it was an endeavor first to preserve all the good actions taken through the years and then to add rules required by the Church's increasing growth and complexity. http://www.adventist.org/information/church-manual/

You will notice that the purpose of the Manual was information for pastors and lay members.

It was not to be a "whole pattern of church governance".

That 1932 Manual is no longer valid, and the only valid Manual today is the 2010 edition, and this one is only valid until 2015, unless the session in 2015 makes no amendments to the Manual.

As far as I recall there is a standing committee of revisions to the Church Manual constantly working on revisions needed because something in the current manual does not make full provisions for everything that happens in a 18 million member growing world wide church. These revisions are taken to the Annual Council and are finally voted on at the next session to make it necessary to publish a new edition of the Manual after each GC session.

Even a change of a few words can often make a huge difference.

[Unity]

You offer no evidence as to what my experience is.

Where, or how, can Church Members gain access to the GC and NAD Working Policies? No need for indirect sources such as a 23 year old article from a magazine.

[Unity]

I have never said it was, or now is, an attempt to establish a whole pattern of church governance.

A little further on it says that:

No attempt should be made to set up standards of membership or to make, or attempt to enforce, rules or regulations for local church operations that are contrary to these decisions adopted by the General Conference in session and that are set forth in this Church Manual.

So Individual churches, conferences, union's, and divisions are still allowed to implement additional rules that don't contradict the Church Manual. Therefore it is not the whole pattern of church governance. It is a partial pattern designed "to set forth and preserve our denominational practices and polity."

It also says that "This was no attempt to suddenly create and impose upon the Church a whole pattern of church governance. Rather it was an endeavor first to preserve all the good actions taken through the years and then to add rules required by the Church's increasing growth and complexity."

So it is a rule book. And yes, it is "for worldwide use by its pastors and lay members". It has rules that are made for all Church Members to follow, and those are the leaders who are supposed to teach and enforce those rules. So why do they ignore or contradict those rules when it says the following?

The Church Manuals say its principles are "to be followed in all matters pertaining to the administration and operation of local churches. The Church Manual also defines the relationship that exists between the local congregation and the conference or other entities of Seventh-day Adventist denominational organization. No attempt should be made to set up standards of membership or to make, or attempt to enforce, rules or regulations for local church operations that are contrary to these decisions adopted by the General Conference in session and that are set forth in this Church Manual.

Quote:

As far as I recall there is a standing committee of revisions to the Church Manual constantly working on revisions needed because something in the current manual does not make full provisions for everything that happens in a 18 million member growing world wide church. These revisions are taken to the Annual Council and are finally voted on at the next session to make it necessary to publish a new edition of the Manual after each GC session.

Adding to the manual or making changes doesn't necessarily mean that other organizational levels within the church can't add to the rules. Clearly those other organization levels are just not allowed to write rules that subtract from the Church Manual. From what I have consistently heard from the leadership I have talked to personally, they have indeed subtracted (contradicted) the Church Manual. I can find examples online as well.

[Gregory Matthews]

Unity said:

Quote:

You offer no evidence as to what my experience is.

I did not say what your experience was.

I simply stated that you reminded me of a person who read a chemistry book and had never gone into a chemistry lab and done an experiment.

[Gregory Matthews]

In post # 686419, Unity asked where and how to obtain a copy of a Working Policy.

The short answer to that is from the organizational level of the denomination that publishes one. IOW, if you want a GC Workig Policy, contact the GC. If you want a Division Policy, contact the Division and the same for a local Conference.

Another source might be the Internet. I assume that people who post here know something about the Internet.

In any case, here are some sources which will give you further information:

Potomac Conference: http://www.pcsda.org/files/COMPLETE_WORKING_POLICIES-Updated_January_2012.pdf

General Conference, 2007-2008: http://www.adventisten.de/uploads/media/GCWP_2007-2008.pdf

North American Division, 2012-2013: http://www.nadsecretariat.org/article/9/north-american-division-secretariat

NAD PDF 2008-2009: http://adventbeliefs.com/images/3/35/Working-Policy-of-the-North-American-Division-of-Seventh-day-Adentists-2008~.pdf

Some of the above are not the most current issue.

[Tom Wetmore]

Also note that the NAD website says that the policy is available only to authorized users and not for public distribution.

One practical reason is illustrated by this off topic discussion of the Church Manual. It does require some understanding and experience and perspective of its proper application and perspective within the overal context of the denomination and how it fits into the overall structure, governance and operation of the Church. As we can see, in the wrong hands it can easily be misinterpreted and misapplied.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing...

[Gregory Matthews]

Tom said:

Quote:

Also note that the NAD website says that the policy is available only to authorized users and not for public distribution.

That is correct. However, the NAD website, contratry to what some may think, does NOT identify who is an authorized user. A SDA layperson, who is not clergy and not employed by the denomination, may request a copy--for this see the form that one must fill out to request a copy.

I am not, what some would call an authorized user. Yet, I have never been refused a copy when I have identified myself and requested a copy.

Here is a part of what the website says:

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Authorized users may order additinal copies of the Working Policy by completing a NAD Working Policy Order Form (click here) and submitting the form via email to Melissa Gottlieb. If your organization has agreed to cover purchasing costs, please provide a Purchase Order number on the Order Form.

There is an earllier statement that further clairfy who is an authorized user in the above context. That context restricts submission of a request for a copy by e-mail and/or payment by a Purchase Order to the auathorized user as previously stated.

Others may mail in a request by filling out a form. That form clearly allows laity and others to request to purchase. I say again: I have been provided on every time I have asked for one.

Yes, I assume that there are some restrictions. Some people posting here are probably not members of the SDA denomination. Would they be allowed to have a copy? I will not speculate.

[Tom Wetmore]

Unity said:

Quote:

You offer no evidence as to what my experience is.

I did not say what your experience was.

I simply stated that you reminded me of a person who read a chemistry book and had never gone into a chemistry lab and done an experiment.

I would say a more apt extension of that is to to turn such a person loose in a laboratory of a pharmaceutical company with the naive expection that the knowledge gained from that chemistry book is enough to equip that person to function in that lab to develop new drugs, test and refine existing ones and to run the company in all of its aspects.

But an illustration that might fit Unity's perspective is to take the owners manual of a new car and to expect it to be enough for doing major mechanical work on the car or to instruct an inexperienced driver to operate a race car and successfully win a race.

[Gregory Matthews]

Tom: Good one. Thanks.

[Tom Wetmore]

But more to the point of one of my previous posts, what does any of this have to do with the topic at hand?

The opening post identified two specific independent ministries apparently as illustrative of the foretold shaking in the church, or a manifestation of the parable of the wheat and the tares. If I understand correctly the POV express by the topic originator, it was that this shows the great divide in the Church into just two classes, one group destined to be saved, the other to eternal damnation. Regarding those two independent ministries, GYC and The One Project, the OP seems to put GYC on the good side and The One Project on the bad side of things.

This discussion has meandered in several directions and morphed into what seems to be an effort to identify solutions or a blueprint to address and fix this great divide, a call for unity. If I understand what Unity is apparently trying to say by his singular focus on the Church Manual is that it is the Church Manual that contains the solution. As I understand his idea, the source of the problem of this great rift in the Church is apparently the result of a failure to follow the Church Manual. According to what he seems to be advocating, if everyone would just conform to its guidance, unity will be restored.

So, is that correct? Is the Church Manual the answer? Is that the secret to unity in the Church?

[debbym]

Quote:

“It takes the nail scarred hands of Jesus” to hold the church together despite our differences. Ken Denslow, advisor the the president

Johann

Thank-you for sharing this quote from the NAD Newspoints, it totally touched my heart. i could not help but share in response, this quote from material being shared in our women s section of CA from the devotional book, Ye Shall Receive Power.

"Jesus is waiting to breathe upon all His disciples, and give them the inspiration of His sanctifying Spirit, and transfuse the vital influence from Himself to His people. He would have them understand that henceforth they cannot serve two masters. Their lives cannot be divided. Christ is to live in His human agents, and work through their faculties, and act through their capabilities. Their will must be submitted to His will, they must act with His Spirit that it may be no more they that live, but Christ that liveth in them. Jesus is seeking to impress upon them the thought that in giving His Holy Spirit He is giving to them the glory which the Father has given Him, that He and His people may be one in God.

Our way and will must be in submission to God’s will, knowing that it is holy, just, and good.—The Signs of the Times, October 3, 1892.

[Guest arnie]

Hey Tom,Regarding post 1/19/14 Taking others'intellectual property and passing it off as your own"? You are joking, right? Actually, haven't been keeping up on the post, but, I mean, are you making a funny? If not, I take it, Ellen is really in trouble with the writer's club. Arnie

[Tom Wetmore]

Read last paragraph of that post. But if you have not been keeping up with the topic, you would understandably be confused. Context is important to understanding.

And part of the context for your remark about EGW is about a century and a half ago. Concepts and laws regarding copyrights, plagerism,etc., were quite different in her time. Judging her writings on today's standards would be a mistake.

[immanuel]

In response to the original topic, each ministry should be evaluated on its own merits rather than an us vs them.

For The 1 Project I see who the presenters are and choose not to attend. This is not a judgment on the individuals salvation rather a choice that I make on how to spend my time. Several of the presenters have said or wrote things that I do not agree with. They are free to believe how they want to believe. I am also free to choose not to invest my time, money, and other resources in continuing to listen to them.

Same thing goes for Leonard Sweet. I have read enough of what he has to say to know that I do not need to hear more of what he says. Again this is not a judgment on his salvation rather a determination on how I choose to spend my time.

All of us make these determinations. We all have a finite amount of time. I choose to not invest my time listening people or reading material from people who have chosen to believe and teach things that I am opposed to. There are better ways for me to spend my time so I choose to spend it differently.

[phkrause]

I like that immanuel, instead of complaining you've chosen to just not listen to what you believe is not for you. Excellent posts.

[mel20]

Dear Immanuel,

It is much better to be accused and mocked as a "judgmental" and "fanatics" rather than to worship our "keep silent" mentality for the sake of our secure jobs, careers or families...or to be looked as nice and cool, not such a rigid Adventism.

This is Christianity all about: The Great Controversy! If we choose to keep silent, then there is no reason for Adventists Church to be existed. For what? Just another denomination or merely a social club?

After all, it's basically not about Adventism... it's all about what God says: [Ezekiel 33]

5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’

7 “So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore you shall hear a word from My mouth and warn them for Me. 8 When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you shall surely die!’ and you do not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 9 Nevertheless if you warn the wicked to turn from his way, and he does not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul."

[CoAspen]

Quote:

It is much better to be accused and mocked as a "judgmental" and "fanatics" rather than to worship our "keep silent" mentality for the sake of our secure jobs, careers or families...or to be looked as nice and cool, not such a rigid Adventism.

This is Christianity all about.....

Do you really understand Christ and His life to the ancient Jewish nation? A martyr complex? Nope, He came to bring joy and happiness. You are spreading doom and gloom. I am not sure where you get your view of christianity, but thankfully it is in minority.