CoAspen Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 It never ceases to surprise me how often people see God only in their own image. Me thinks God is constantly being surprised and astounded also by human kinds views of others which are not His and claiming to get their understanding from God! This subject is downright depressing!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted February 4, 2014 Administrators Share Posted February 4, 2014 i would be happy another opportunity for scripture reading and prayer, and witnessing had happened, and pray for that household. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted February 4, 2014 Members Share Posted February 4, 2014 How and when should one rebuke sin yet remain compassionate? Originally Posted By: SOP To hate and reprove sin, and at the same time to show pity and tenderness for the sinner, is a difficult attainment. The more earnest our own efforts to attain to holiness of heart and life, the more acute will be our perception of sin and the more decided our disapproval of any deviation from the right. We must guard against undue severity toward the wrongdoer, but we must also be careful not to lose sight of the exceeding sinfulness of sin. There is need of showing Christlike patience and love for the erring one, but there is also danger of showing so great toleration for his error that he will look upon himself as undeserving of reproof, and will reject it as uncalled for and unjust. {AA 503.3} Ministers of the gospel sometimes do great harm by allowing their forbearance toward the erring to degenerate into toleration of sins and even participation in them. Thus they are led to excuse and palliate that which God condemns, and after a time they become so blinded as to commend the very ones whom God commands them to reprove. He who has blunted his spiritual perceptions by sinful leniency toward those whom God condemns, will erelong commit a greater sin by severity and harshness toward those whom God approves. {AA 504.1} The last part of that quote is oh so true. What happens now when one speaks out against practices that God condemns? Such a one may likely be called uncaring, intolerant, judgmental etc etc.- as if rebuking is unloving. one might take a look at the paragraph before the above EGW quotes: Quote: Fearing that Timothy’s mild, yielding disposition might lead him to shun an essential part of his work, Paul exhorted him to be faithful in reproving sin and even to rebuke with sharpness those who were guilty of gross evils. Yet he was to do this “with all long-suffering and doctrine.” He was to reveal the patience and love of Christ, explaining and enforcing his reproofs by the truths of the word. refusing to participate in the dedication of a child to God simply because one does not accept the parents is hardly showing the patience and love of Christ... this thread is reminding me more and more of the pharisee who prayed, "`O God! I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity -- greedy, dishonest, immoral..." Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 4, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2014 Green said: Quote: Keep in mind, folks, that there is no Biblical precedent for, nor requirement for a baby dedication. Well, there may not be an explicit command to dedicate a child. But, I consider the following to be a precedent: Mark 10:13-16 & Luke 18:15-17. Read those Biblical passages and note what Christ did--he blessed the children. O.K. That may not be a dedication. But, it does tell us something. I wonder about those mothers (probably women) who brought their children to Christ that day: Were any of the women prostitutes? If so, would Christ have refused to bless them due to the fact that some would say doing so gave an implicit blessing to prostitution? Did any of their fathers make their living by robbery? I wonder if the mothers and fathers represented their that day had any imperfections in their lives? Again, one must be careful to not appear to show any positive attitude to something that was morally wrong? Ellen White in commenting on this passages says: Christ Quote: . . . still invites the mothers to lead up their little ones to be blessed by Him. See DA page 512 NOTE: I am not in any way attributing the thoughts to which I have responded above to Green. He simply stimulated my thinking, so I have responded such. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I would suggest that you have blinders, looking for snippets of quotes and splashes of texts to support preconceived ideas, you are not alone. However, I prefer to look at the life of Christ and His ministry.....not to condemn the world but to seek and save the lost. Blessing a child would not be a challenge for Christ. I do not remember Christ asking for parental credentials when he said to allow the children to come to him or separate out children when he talked about becoming like a child, or etc..etc. 'Christians' have more problem with finding 'good' than with 'wrong/evil/bad'...it seems to be the focus of a lot. Again, what did Christ say, something about 'love'...maybe check out all of those splashes of texts and snippets of quotes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted February 5, 2014 Members Share Posted February 5, 2014 i don't understand your point by adding the paragraph above. It says nothing different from the quote I used, but rather adds to it.. Paul's admonition to Timothy is exactly the point that you seem to detest," be faithful in reproving sin and even to rebuke with sharpness those who were guilty of gross evils." Why must you think that rebuke for sins cannot be done in patience and love? Or more to the point, why do you think that one who rebukes sin cares less for the sinner's soul than you would like? There is a lot more at stake here than a child dedication. The souls of two adults are in the balance and making them comfortable in their lifestyle is not loving them. In addition, your comment , "simply because of their lifestyle'' is a euphemism for "living in sin". Why this reluctance to call sin by its right name? Originally Posted By: rudywoofs this thread is reminding me more and more of the pharisee who prayed, "`O God! I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity -- greedy, dishonest, immoral..." Why do you have this judgmental attitude that a rebuke of sin must be coming from a holier than thou mindset? It would be better if we all cared as much about the parents' souls as we do about the child's. lots of finger pointing in the above... "you," "you," "you," "you," "your," "you" ... fascinating... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 It's called a failure to comprehend! Your remarks were right on. Fascinating the parallels with the ancient religious leaders of Christ day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted February 5, 2014 Administrators Share Posted February 5, 2014 Quote: quote from Jackson Paul's admonition to Timothy is exactly the point that you seem to detest," be faithful in reproving sin and even to rebuke with sharpness those who were guilty of gross evils." Why must you think that rebuke for sins cannot be done in patience and love? Or more to the point, why do you think that one who rebukes sin cares less for the sinner's soul than you would like? There is a lot more at stake here than a child dedication. The souls of two adults are in the balance and making them comfortable in their lifestyle is not loving them. In addition, your comment , "simply because of their lifestyle'' is a euphemism for "living in sin". Why this reluctance to call sin by its right name? i do not have the power to convict anyone of sin. i can frown on sin, and detest sin, and reject sin, but only the Holy Spirit has the power to convict the sinner and bring them power and hope at the same time. Should i frown at sinners because i don't like their sin? does it help me when others frown at me when i am in error? no it does not bring me to Jesus. that has never been my path to Jesus. because we all live with a fallen nature, and we all need to consider ourselves lest we also are tempted. we all have our favorite sins. sin is no respecter of persons. selfishness, cherished feelings of self pity, or self interest looms in every heart in one form or another, and we all need to pure gentle voice of God to be able to be aware of it. someone pointing the finger at me will never bring me conviction of my sin in the presence of God. In prison ministries, the lay ministers do not go there to point out sin, and to pronounce how evil the inmates actions have been or are. They lift up Jesus alone, they do not lift up the sins of others. in church services we lift up Jesus and let the spirit convict of sin. people are left free to choose. and if someone chooses to live for themselves instead of for God, it is not my job to make them miserable, and accuse them. there is one who is the accuser and that is the enemy of everyone's soul. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 5, 2014 Administrators Share Posted February 5, 2014 And EGW makes it abundantly clear that those that take it upon themselves to point the finger of accusation and focus on the errors and mistakes of others are in alliance with that one Accuser of the brethren. She also says that those that unwisely take it upon themselves to draw attention to the errors and faults of others will be charge by God with a greater sin than the one that made the mistakes that were the focus of the accuser. She says that such accusation and condemnation is viewed by heaven as condemnation of Christ. We are to show love. And we need to remember on this point that love keeps no record of wrongs. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 5, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 5, 2014 debbym: Good post. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 5, 2014 Author Moderators Share Posted February 5, 2014 in church services we lift up Jesus and let the spirit convict of sin. people are left free to choose. and if someone chooses to live for themselves instead of for God, it is not my job to make them miserable, and accuse them. there is one who is the accuser and that is the enemy of everyone's soul. Yes. A church service is never the place to call out individuals. I have done many baby blessings with parents in various living arrangements. I actually announce that we welcome all children. We bless babies, toddlers and older. I say that we follow the pattern of Jesus in "suffering the little children". I agree that dedication is just as much about parents as the child. I have the hard conversation, the rebuking, teaching and encouragement privately a week or two before the church service. I have never been approach by a lesbian couple. I have colleages who have been approached and have made different decisions according to their conscience. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted February 6, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2014 There are two different ideas around us for the word "Love" one is a sticky sweet sentimentalism where it is a warm fuzzy hug the world and sing "Kumbya" and just accepting of everything. The other is a strong power to respect where other are but also encouraging them to be the best that it can be. It involves kind criticism. However the issue with this topic is that yes, we do have our proof texts. Yes, we need to be absolutely fair to what the Bible says. The issue is, are we correctly applying these proof texts, or are we like Satan on the pinnacle of the temple quoting scripture that sounds good, that sound like it fits the situation, but are we taking the texts out of the context and misapplying them to situation that the Bible writers were not thinking about and would be horrified at our applications of their words. Are we so caught up in what we think the text is saying that we are unfair to what the text is actually saying? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 6, 2014 Author Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2014 1Tim 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear The church has traditionally done this work in a business meeting not a church service. The text does not say rebuke all in a church service. Your are going further than the text does. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Cochoa Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 A church service is never the place to call out individuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 6, 2014 Author Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2014 ??? Your quotes do not indicate that EGW believes that people should be rebuked in church services. Lets follow that idea though..... Are you suggesting that a pastor should publicly rebuke an unwed couple just before he dedicates their child during the church service? Are you saying for example, that a Pastor should go before the church during the announcements and tell "Brother Fred" that it is wrong for him to open his dental practice on Sabbath. If he continues he will be censored? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted February 6, 2014 Administrators Share Posted February 6, 2014 ... and it would seem that in the interests of fairness and consistency that all of the known sins of the members should be exposed in the same way. "Sister Mary Jones, you were seen yesterday exiting the liquor store, REPENT!" "Brother James and Sister Jane, you were gossiping about Sister Ellen's struggle with her wayward sons - REPENT and go to her and apologize!"... Could be a very long service. Until nobody could stand it any longer and stopped coming because of all the loving rebukes... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 6, 2014 Author Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2014 Could be a very long service. Yes indeed. But perhaps the sermon could just be a series of rebukes. That would save time. Hmmmmm.....perhaps thematic rebukes.....rebukes based on the book of James. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted February 6, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2014 ... "Brother James and Sister Jane, you were gossiping about Sister Ellen's struggle with her wayward sons - REPENT and go to her and apologize!"... I kind of like that one, except that the congregation would probably want all the details... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 6, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2014 Jackson said: Quote: A Christian has a burden for lost souls and therefore a duty to rebuke sinful behavior. It goes without saying that this should be done in a loving manner, so please don't rail against rebuking by dwelling on all the negative and harmful ways it can be used, and please resist the temptation to judge the character and motives of anyone who follows the Bible's admonition to rebuke. Rebuking is needful and has the approbation of God, A stern rebuke is an act of kindness. I have to admit that the above may make some sense! Think about it and what could be accomplished. Are you up to what you said Jackson--loving manner but stern. I am starting to think that you could. I am not certain, but I think that maybe you could? So, perhaps you could demonstrate your ability to be both loving and stern as you stood in front of a congregation and rebuked yourself for your sins! Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 7, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 7, 2014 Jackson, I am waiting for your reply. Your message struck a home run with me and I saw my duty to you--to be both loving and stern. As I have thought about my message to you, I believe that I accomplished my mission to be loving to you. But, with no response from you, I am beginning to doubt that I accomplished my goal to be stern. Forgive me for that lack. I may have failed in my responsibility in that aspect. If I need to do so, I will attempt it again and I will attempt to be more stern. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted February 8, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2014 I just got a public rebuke on another website. There was a thread about preparing for heaven and hastening the second coming. The contributors were full of full of these Mrs. White quotes about doing this and that. I posted "When we love the world as he [Jesus] has loved it, then for us his mission is accomplished; we are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts." The others have become quite up set with me on how I am going against the very message of the Bible and the church and rebuking me for the sinfulness of that quote. Although I replied by giving the source of the quote, I just visited that page and can see that the rebuke continues and that they have yet to realize that I was quoting Desire of Ages page 641. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted February 8, 2014 Administrators Share Posted February 8, 2014 people do get very imbalanced on eg white, just as they can in scriptures, or anything they are looking to to make sure they are right, and going to be saved. it is the submission to the work of the Spirit that gives us balance, and true education, and abiding love for Jesus and for others. when the glory of man is laid in the dust, and we find our glory is in overlooking the offenses of others, instead of some exact behavior.... then we will experience the quote you gave. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 8, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2014 Jackson said: Quote: A request by the parents for a child dedication is usually done privately, so the rebuke would not be an open one in this case. In my experience the actual child dedication was a very public one and I have only one time seen a private one, which was one that I did. The context of the rebuke was that, as I have understood it, a public dedication. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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