Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 8, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 8, 2014 Jackson said: Quote: The discussion in this thread revolves around a lesbian couple, living in open sin, who wish the church to dedicate their child. To treat their request without rebuking the parents would be shameful and show no regard for the salvation of the souls involved. The suggestion of Olger in an earlier post would be an excellent way of rebuking the parents. Jackson, you have said that rebuke should be both loving and stern. I seems to me that my loving rebuke of you was not enough and I must now switch to a sterner mode. My advice that you lovingly, sternly and publicly rebuke yourself for your sins was based upon the following: 1) Yes there are both public and private sins. I will tell you that if you are a part of a congregation, members of that congregation well know many, even if not all, of your sins. You have what you would call public sins. AS you would say, they should be lovingly and sternly rebuked and in public. 2) Christ had something to say about rebuking the speck of sawdust the in eye of another while one had a log on one's own eye. {see Matthew 7:3-5] In fact Christ call them hypocrites. Speaking sternly, as you would suggest, you may need to consider if that advice from Christ applies to you. Again, it seems to me that I failed in my first attempt to lovingly rebuke you. So, as you have stated should be done, I am responding in a sterner fashion. I hope that you will accept this rebuke in the manner intended and that I will not be required to speak more frankly (sterner). Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted February 8, 2014 Members Share Posted February 8, 2014 Jackson said: Quote: A request by the parents for a child dedication is usually done privately, so the rebuke would not be an open one in this case. In my experience the actual child dedication was a very public one and I have only one time seen a private one, which was one that I did. The context of the rebuke was that, as I have understood it, a public dedication. Rebuke? I for one would pray that that pastor, minister, etc., would tell the parents that he does not condone there lifestyle, but that he will dedicate there child/children because Jesus wants us to bring them to him. I wonder how many children have been dedicated whose parents, were divorced, in adultery, etc.? Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 9, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 9, 2014 Jackson said: Quote: Now, please explain to me more clearly and even more sternly, if need be, just what sins or behavior of mine you are rebuking. On the basis of what I know about you, I would have to say you are sinless. On the basis of what I know about the human condition, I would say that any people you know well enough to rebuke would also have enough knowledge to rebuke you. On the basis of the passage in Matthews, I will say you ought to take care of that. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 10, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 10, 2014 Jackson said: Quote: I really don't see what relevance my character has to do with the discussion on this thread. O.K. That is where you are. You do not understand! I cited a Biblical passage (Matthews 7:3-5) that I believe is applicable to you and this discussion. The message of that passage, in the context of this discussion, is: All who want to sternly, and with love, rebuke others, should be willing with the same insight, look to themselves and apply that same judgment to themselves and in the same manner. So, if the rebuke of another is public, so also should be the other rebuke. You say you do not understand. O.K. So, be it. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 10, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 10, 2014 Jackson said: Quote: Attacking my motives and character shows all that your disagreement with my posts is based on personal discomfort rather than Biblical principle. No! Your motive: I have assumed that your motive was exactly as your presented it: To follow what you believe to be a Biblical command to rebuke sternly with love. There is no attack there. Your character: I only assume that you participate in the human condition in which you need the salvation that Christ offers you. Personal discomfort: I have not taken any comment made by you to be personally directed to me. Biblical principle: I have given you that in a passage in Matthew 7. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted February 10, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 10, 2014 Have you noticed that, except for this one specific topic, all the sins of the Bible are things that destroy or make superficial relationships and that Jesus' condemnations are on those who focus on things that they consider sins that end up excluding people from God's family. Any chance that the one exception to the rule may actually be a misunderstanding and misapplication of the text? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted February 10, 2014 Administrators Share Posted February 10, 2014 Rebuke? I for one would pray that that pastor, minister, etc., would tell the parents that he does not condone there lifestyle, but that he will dedicate there child/children because Jesus wants us to bring them to him. I wonder how many children have been dedicated whose parents, were divorced, in adultery, etc.? Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted February 10, 2014 Administrators Share Posted February 10, 2014 Good discussion! Has anyone considered that the couple is actually in church, that they care about having their child blessed? It would seem to me that would be a good opportunity to present to them Jesus. When I first came to church, I was an unwed, pregnant teenager. I well knew the pain of the lifestyle I was in and all I had on my heart was that I wanted peace with God. If I would have been publicly rebuked in church for where I was coming from the shame would probably have done me in. The members were wise in their treatment of me... They showed me love and acceptance, which in itself was something so new and strange to me that it endeared me to them all. The Holy Spirit had been working with me to bring me to church, and after all these years He still is working with me- STILL. there is still much to learn. But it was the drawing power of God's love that brought about change, not the people as redeeming as their acceptance was to me. I had a heart that desired peace with God. I had conviction to deal with. I don't know the family that is the example here. But I would be happy to see them in church and would love to talk about Jesus to them. If pride is their issue I can understand that. But I don't know them well enough to judge at the moment. Jesus had insight that I too often lack. Some people can rebuke and get away with it (it brings about the desired results). Myself, I need to remind myself not to take on something that is the Holy Spirit's role and simply do what I am impressed by the Holy Spirit to do. A good reason for this is that I should think that we as church members want the couple to develop a heart that follows God. To me that seems better than doing the job for them. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Gail That was so well put and so very timely. You have been such a gift to this board. Thank you Jesus. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted February 11, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 11, 2014 Gail That was so well put and so very timely. You have been such a gift to this board. Thank you Jesus. Amen!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 11, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 11, 2014 Jackson said: Quote: If you think Matt 7:3-5 applies to me then you think I must be a hypocrite. But you have no evidence of that. . Why did you ever introduce these verses and relate them to me, a man whose character you know very little about unless you were presumptuously judging my character or my motives, I introduced those verses because I believe they apply to you. No, I have not decided that you are a hypocrite. And he said: Quote: Gregory, That is another of your responses that is convoluted and self-serving.. You can assume almost nothing about a person's present character based on the "human condition" they inherited. A character is formed not inherited.So, without knowing me you should assume little about the make-up of my character, and to do otherwise is to be unfair to me. I assume that all living humans are in need of salvation and none are without sin. Are you telling me that you are without sin? And he said: Quote: No, what you described is not a motive but rather an action to carry out my motive. The motive in choosing to rebuke should be a concern for the soul of an erring brother or sister, and to uphold the honor of God's Holy Law. As I stated, I believed that you were motivated to follow what you understood the Bible to direct you to do. If you are telling me that you were not so motivated, O.K. I accept your statement that such was not your motive. In any case it seems you are quibbling about words. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 In your desire to be a rebuker and seek justification for doing so, then perhaps patterning ones self after Christs time on earth might be of help.Did people flock to him for rebuking or because He gave them hope, cared for them and had compassion. A good exercise would be to make a list of Christs rebuking and Christs loving, caring actions. Christ could read the minds of humans, we can't, so why should we spend our time rebuking when little is know of the other person. Even Christ said that His mission was to seek and save the lost, not condemn them. I would rather take my chances of following the path of compassion towards the gay couple and bless their child rather than seeing it as an opportunity to 'rebuke'.....I will leave that up to the Holy Spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 12, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 12, 2014 Jackson said: Quote: So you don't believe the Bible and the SOP are correct when they give examples of fallen men and women rebuking . You believe only sinless souls not in need of salvation should be allowed to rebuke? Absolutely wrong. It is because I believe that you are not sinless that I believe you should be rebuked and by yourself if you intend to rebuke others. Jackson said: Quote: If you can't tell me why Matt7:3-5 applies to me then don't use it. I can. I have. You have ignored it. By the way, it is not for you to tell me what not to post here. Jackson said: Quote: This whole dialogue with you was an attempt to ascertain from you why you chose not to refute what I was posting, but rather chose to question my fitness for making such posts, in short, why you chose to attack the messenger whom you did not know, rather than the message itself which you did know.. I have not questioned your fitness for making such posts. I have simply said that as I see you as an honest person, with the motive of wanting to follow the Biblical teaching as you apply it to others, you ought to apply that same teaching to yourself and rebuke yourself in the same manner that you say your rebuke others--with both love and sternness. [ Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johann Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 Gail That was so well put and so very timely. You have been such a gift to this board. Thank you Jesus. Can´t help it, but I agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted February 12, 2014 Members Share Posted February 12, 2014 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted February 13, 2014 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2014 I've been indicating that we may need to study our proof texts that are used against this couple closer: The Bible seems to be silent about it except for a few places. In the Old Testament the two applications are: 1.) telling things that were NOT to be done in worship services. The Canaanites worship was to help out the gods of life by uniting their life forces. They would mix different textiles, different grains (Ezekiel 4:9 bread is a violation of this commandment) and everyone had sex with everyone else. You would have sex with your spouse, your children, your pets, your neighbor, your neighbor's spouse, your neighbor's children and your neighbor's pets. While there were those who had sick minds, not all of them did. But they honestly believed that they needed to all unite to help out the god's of life and that if the god's of life did not get enough help that there would be famine and starvation and death. Do you follow this commandment or only condemn one application of it? Do you wear clothing of mixed textiles? Do you mix different grains? Have you ever eaten Ezekiel 4:9 bread? If you do then what different are you from them? Can you say about the Sabbath commandment "Well I allow my manservant to rest but not my maid servant, I only follow part of the commandment and ignore the rest of the commandment. I'll condemn those who have an issue with a part that does not tempt me, but that which does temp me, wearing the blended clothes and eating the mixed grains well surely God does not care that I break part of this commandment as long as I am very vocal against the other part of this same law." The second application in the Old Testament is people actually believed that they were robbing life force from someone by raping them. They believed that if they rapped someone that some of the food that would have grown in their victim's garden would now grow in their garden. That some of the flocks that would have been born to their flocks. Some of the children that would have been born to their victim's wife will now be born to your wife... For the New Testament, we find (and not always clear with the translations) Paul simply was quoting the Old Testament, and thus the above two applications. All Paul added to the above was a word that is usually translated "Homosexuals" but is actually a term about grown men having sex with young boys at the gym and would be more accurately translated "pedophiles" not "Homosexuals." Tell me, are the parents of this child trying to have orgies in church? Are they out raping people with the hopes that they were stealing from their victims? Are they pedophiles? Going to other topics the Bible condemns adultery (cheating on the spouse) and fornication (promiscuity). Dr. David Larson of Loma Linda University points out that our condemnation of people who are dealing with homosexuality comes from reading Saint Augustine's ideas into the text and that we think that Augustine's ideas are what the text is saying and that we have thus gotten away from the Bible. So we have our key texts but we have the problems with the context of our key texts. When Jesus comes we risk facing one of two condemnations from his lips: 1. We may encourage these people to do the best they can and encourage their relationship with the Lord, dedicate their children and Jesus may say to us "Can't you read? You have those key texts. Why did you encourage them? You should have rebuked them!" On the other hand, Jesus might say to us "Can't you read? Those texts were in specific contexts that had nothing to do with what this couple was doing. Your rebuking of these people have pushed many of them away from me. Many are going to die in hell because of what you did. You have ripped many away from me because you taught the traditions of Saint Augustine in place of the word of God." Personally I would rather hear the first condemnation from his lips than to hear the second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted February 13, 2014 Members Share Posted February 13, 2014 So we have our key texts but we have the problems with the context of our key texts. When Jesus comes we risk facing one of two condemnations from his lips: 1. We may encourage these people to do the best they can and encourage their relationship with the Lord, dedicate their children and Jesus may say to us "Can't you read? You have those key texts. Why did you encourage them? You should have rebuked them!" On the other hand, Jesus might say to us "Can't you read? Those texts were in specific contexts that had nothing to do with what this couple was doing. Your rebuking of these people have pushed many of them away from me. Many are going to die in hell because of what you did. You have ripped many away from me because you taught the traditions of Saint Augustine in place of the word of God." Personally I would rather hear the first condemnation from his lips than to hear the second. Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onebeecee Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 HEY ALL Like the Bible says like the days of Noah and the days of Sodom and Gomorrah dgrimm60 A few months ago I would have said the same thing, but I was lucky enough to get the question, by a member here; Why was Sodom a Gomorrah destroyed. Ezekiel 16:49-50 New King James Version (NKJV) 49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.[a] So taking a point that more then their moral sins were the sins of how they treated the poor and needy. I think it is helpful especially for people like me who are trying to get back to Christ that you include passages and just say they were sinners in the eyes of God. Because as I understand it, you, I and everyone else in this world will stand equal to those residents of those cities. In that, I happen to think what this Paster did was kind, and I'm sure he searched his soul and asked God for his guidance. So I do not see where all of you are coming from with this; basically you must rebuke all sin. You bet you must rebuke sin, but are you sinless? I have spent a lot of time in Job this past month. A man who did his best to live God's way and his laws,yet even he admits to God he cannot understand the depth and concept of God. Who even while his friends rebuked him, he didn't rebuke them back. One of my favourite passages from Job and I'm using a bible that is translated from the Aramaic language, the everyday language Jesus used. Chapter 42: 3 Who am I to think I can give counsel without knowledge? Therefore thou has declared to me, that I have uttered that which I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know." While I guess the church has its codes, I do believe a Paster can marry people of different faiths in a place other then "the church". So why couldn't he bless a baby, and then leave the child rearing under God's management, which is what we do when we get out children blessed is it not? Like I said, many of you may not like it, but you'll stand next to me, a confessed sinner, and those that have not nor will not confess, and because we all have sinned ( Romans 3:23 New International Version (NIV) 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God) so I say get over it, move on with what and where God leads you. Quote Psalms19:12-14 Lord my saviour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted February 15, 2014 Administrators Share Posted February 15, 2014 Quote: Ezekiel 16:49-50 New King James Version (NKJV) 49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. 50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit Thanks for sharing this timely verse. i had not read this for awhile though i knew this was why the two cities were destroyed. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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