Cheney/Bush Support USA Torturing People

[Dr. Shane]

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I don't think the SDA Church should get involved publicly at all.

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I agree completely. Our mission is a spiritual mission, not a political one. Liberty Magazine tends to cross that line sometimes and that makes me a bit nervous.

[Bravus]

If we need to stay out of people's torture chambers, then we should at least have the decency to stay out of people's bedrooms.

[Dr. Shane]

So parents that sexually molest their children should be left to do it as long as they are in their bedrooms - the government shouldn't do anything?

A man can violently rape his wife as long as it is in their bedroom?

A women can prostitute herself as long as it is in her bedroom?

We can use illegal drugs as long as we do it in our bedrooms?

I think the bedroom arguement is pretty weak. If something should be illegal it shouldn't matter if it is done in the bedroom or not.

I think we should outlaw torture in the bedroom <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Greg, as for the liberal litany that "torture is useless because the victim will tell you anything he thinks you want to know" is not really true, in most cases. The effectiveness of any form of interrogation depends on the person. Some might actually be ignorant; some might be really tough and motivated and determined never to talk; but the vast majority are not supermen, and will begin talking the first instant they feel real pain and fear. They will tell the truth because they have been drugged, and are hooked up to lie detectors, which they think will catch them if they lie."

Ron, most military officers, as a group, are not considered libeals. I have been trained in U. S. Army schools were we were told as I have stated. It is ineffective, and it endangers our own military forces.

You may say that I was only taught a politically correct line. If you were to do so, you would be quite wrong. The military has schools where senior politicians and officers come and lecture "without attribution." That is a phrase which states that those lecturing are guaranteed that what they say will NOT be reported outside of the room. They let their hair down, and tell it like they see it.

You mention drugs. Military studies tell us that information obtained under the use of drugs may be highly suspect.

You tell us that accurate information under torture. Yes, some may be accurate. That is just the problem. The accurate is mixed withe the false. One does not know which is which.

[Ron Lambert]

Of course torture should not be standard practice. It should be a last resort in extreme circumstances. But for that reason, we should not have laws that forbid EVER using torture. We might have laws clarifying more exactly when and where torture might be used, if deemed necessary. It is already understood that this can only be done to people who have been classified as "enemy combatants," and usually is not to be done on U.S. soil.

The comparison to laws restricting "what people do in their own bedrooms" is not a valid one, because obviously torture is not something that takes place between consenting adults.

Greg, what you were told only applies to troops and officers in general. Only those who have real training and expertise in administering extreme forms of interrogation should be allowed to engage in them when such is deemed necessary. The CIA does maintain teams that have such training and expertise. They should be called in when needed. Torture is not something that should be done by the average soldier.

[Gregory Matthews]

Ron:

The CIA is not part of the U. S. Military.

For interests sake, are you all aware that the several CIA agents have been Seventh-day Adventists?

a) One person I went to college with died in duty as a CIA agent.

Back when I was a SDA pastor of a local congregation, one person who attended my church, with his family, was a CIA agent.

NOTE: As a point of interest He, and his family were evacuated to the United States when a major news magazine published a front-page story on his activities in another country, and the life of he and his family became endangered. At that point, his carreer as a CIA agent was over. He had been publicly identified.

[Bravus]

Ron, that's exactly why I made the comparison to what happens in bedrooms (and why Shane's points are interesting but non-responsive: I *meant* between consenting adults, but should maybe have said so.)

It just seemed backward that the SDA church is willing to make a public statement (remember, that's the original question that started this thread) on homosexual acts between consenting adults in their own bedrooms, but not on acts of torture and coercion, committed without consent, in torture chambers. There's something broken about that set of values.

[Ron Lambert]

Greg, there is a very, very close relation between the CIA and Special Forces. A friend of mine was a captain in Special Forces in Vietnam, and he frequently went on missions at the behest of and coordinated by the CIA. Toward the end of his tour, he was told he was being "vetted" and might soon be invited to join the CIA as a special ops officer. That was about the time when the Lord impressed him that his special protection he had been receiving was about to end, and if he went any further, he would be unprotected. He chose to turn to the Lord and left the military.

The invasion of Afghanistan was largely a coordinated Special Forces-CIA effort. The CIA flew the Predator remote-controlled spy planes.

There is a difference between CIA field ops agents and clerks who work at desks in Langley.

I agree with JeannieB43, that the SDA church should not engage in making lots of public policy statements. That is one of the reasons the Russian government picked the SDA printing house to do the religious printing for all non-Catholic denominations--they were impressed after investigating how "unpolitical" the SDA church has consistently been.

However, I also think that the SDA church would be derelict if it said nothing about the abortion or gay rights controversies. Unlike the torture issue, which is unlikely to impact most individuals' lives, abortion and things like gay marriage (and whether we should approve of it) are something that can impact many individual's lives. They are moral issues that matter to the individual. Some gays wish to deny that their "sexual orientation" is a moral issue, but anyone who believes the Bible and knows what it says does consider it to be a moral issue, and therefore the church is obliged to speak about it.

[Dr. Shane]

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I *meant* between consenting adults

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So prostitution should be legal?

[Gregory Matthews]

Ron:

I am well aware of the relationships between the CIA and various military groups, within all services.

CIA offic clerk: The person attending my chruch was "outed" as as "station chief." Hardly an office clerk.

The CIA agent who died overseas, died in a combat zone.

[Gregory Matthews]

If anyone wants to see the medals that are given to CIA agents, check out: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/facttell/cia_medals.html

[bevin]

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However, I also think that the SDA church would be derelict if it said nothing about the abortion or gay rights controversies. Unlike the torture issue, [:"red"]which is unlikely to impact most individuals' lives[/], abortion and things like gay marriage (and whether we should approve of it) are something that can impact many individual's lives.

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The use of torture effects the life of every citizen because (a) it is a direct threat to them - obey or we will do it to you too, ( it increases the enemies of the state dramatically - all the relatives of the person tortured now hate your country also, © the government now starts acting on the bad information it has received, and (d) they have to live in a society containing people who are taught to torture.

To be blunt, once a smart group knows the USA is torturing people, it frames people - enemies of the group, or representatives of another group amongst whom it wants to provoke hatred of the USA - and con's the USA into torturing them!

Go read the history of James Jesus Angleton - and find out exactly how hard it is to determine truth in the spy business.

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They are moral issues that matter to the individual. Some gays wish to deny that their "sexual orientation" is a moral issue, but anyone who believes the Bible and knows what it says does consider it to be a moral issue, and therefore the church is obliged to speak about it.

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And torture is not?

So here we have active christians - Shane, Ron, and Ed - condoning the use of torture as a USA government tool. The same people that follow the "turn the other cheek" "love your enemies" "do good to them that spitefully use you" Lord.

Simply stunning.

/Bevin

[bevin]

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So prostitution should be legal?

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It has been for most of history, and is in most of the world today.

Including the USA - provided you aren't too organized about it.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

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bevin said:

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So prostitution should be legal?

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It has been for most of history, and is in most of the world today.

Including the USA - provided you aren't too organized about it.

/Bevin

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Still didn't answer the question.

[Bravus]

It should be more legal than torture.

[Neil D]

In an open society, the answer to your question is yes, Shane.

In a totarian or closed society, the morals are determined by one enity that controls that same society. In a Open society, those controls are determined by the individual. In a closed society, torture is ok'ed...In a open society, torture is questionable at best as it goes against every principle that the open society believes in...In an open society, it is the individuals who truely determine thier own values within the choices of that society. Heaven has the best of both worlds..A Ruler who works within His populace to help them arrive at the best solution for self determination. On earth, that can not happen as the populace gives up self determination for the judgement of that ruling enity. There are forces at work, here in the USA that are attempting to make our society closed with thier idea of values/morals. The republicans have joined with those forces to create a christian nation, determined to rewrite history and have others "toe the line" in thier view of behavioral standards and values/judgments.

An honest assesment of your posts, Shane, lead one to conclude that you are against self determination. Sure, you have found the light, but you will not allow others to find it in thier way nor will you allow other to live contrary to your values. My Ozzie daughter, who has read this, has said that you are in good company in your views...You have people like Hitler [a semi religious man], Idi Amin, Stalin, even Saddam Hussain in your company.

And we all know, THEY did not use torture to keep people in thier society....right???

[Dr. Shane]

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You have people like Hitler [a semi religious man], Idi Amin, Stalin, even Saddam Hussain in your company.

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Comparing other members at C/A to Hitler and Stalin could easily be considered emotionally inflamatory. Not a good example of playing well with others.

[Dr. Shane]

Going <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/129933-offtopic2.gif" alt="" /> for a momenet (like we haven't been already <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

If prostitution was just an issue of two consenting adults, the government would have a harder case for making it illegal than they do. However throughout history, including ancient history, prostitution has spread disease. Some of these diseases are serious like AIDS and syphilis. Others that may seem less serious can cause PID and cervical cancer.

Ancient port cities had a large percentage of their population that died from syphilis and also had a large prostitution industry. Sailors would bring syphilis in from another port, the local men would sleep with the prostitutes and give it to their wives.

Since the government does have the responsibility to promote and protect the general welfare of the population, it certainly is justified to outlaw prostitution.

The same principle can be applied to homosexuality. Not every homosexual wants to marry another homosexual. The gay lifestule is quite promiscous and thus prone to spreading disease much like prostitution. When gay people marry into the hetrosexual population, they spread disease into it as well. So while I, and many others, may not want to outlaw homosexuality, the government certainly has a legitimate public health concern with it just as prostitution. Even though it is between consenting adults.

<img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/focus.gif" alt="" />

In regard to torture, the government should treat our enemies in a way they wish for our enemies to treat our captured soldiers. That said, it is hard to have sympathy for the al Queda terrorists that have been captured since they chop the heads off from our civilians, burn them and hang them from bridges. I don't know about any of you, but I would prefer to shiver and sleep in my own urine than have my head wacked off on camera for my family and the whole world to view.

[bevin]

The American's fly overhead launching $100,000 missiles from $20M planes into wedding parties.

Don't expect the poor group to sit around and do nothing.

The lopping off of heads is a weapon of a poor group fighting a wealthy group. At least the person that they killed was a genuine combatant - yes, contractors who are working on infrastructure are as much combatants as the guys who fuel or fly the planes. It doesn't matter if they are wearing a uniform or have enlisted in a military unit.

/Bevin

ps: This was all predictable and predicted. It is why noone with any understanding of the Middle East or history is surprised - just Bush et al...

[karenita1]

Just curious, Does the Adventist church still believe that there will be a final persecution coming? And if so do you really want to advocate practices that could be used on you? I mean I'm listening to all the arguements and the biggest question, the one that I've had from the beginning of the whole Iraq war is - who constitutes a threat? (Especially to the Christian Right) If Policies are going to be implemented can guideslines be clearly outlined to define a 'threat' - I suspect that may be very difficult to do.

'This was all predictable and predicted. It is why noone with any understanding of the Middle East or history is surprised - just Bush et al...'

This person is absolutely right.

I think that there is profound ignorance as to the mentality of the middle eastern people if anyone on this forum believes that legallizing torture is going to stem the tide of extremist group activites. In fact just based on Iraq and the Gaza strip alone, the only thing it might do is to increase the number of young people joining extremist groups and hence the number of attempted attacks. So the US probably does not want to do yet another thing to antagonize the rest of the world because it is already backing itself into a tight 'us vs them' corner.

[Dr. Shane]

I think we first need to put our fear of the end times in prespective. 1. How much do want our fear of the end times to govern our lives today? 2. Do we think there is legislation we can pass today that will protect us from the end times? 3. Do we expect to go through any less than the martyrs of the Dark Ages did?

In the context of this forum, I don't think anyone is advocating using the type of torture on the radical Islamic terrorists that they use on us and on each other. Remember these are the people that chop off heads, cut out tongues, cut fingers off one by one, throw people off cliffs in gunny sacks and stone people to death.

Some consider the flushing of the koran down a toilet to be torture. Well, as for me, I would rather have my Desire of Ages flushed down the toilet than have my tougue cut out. Some consider making one sleep and shiver in his own urine to be torture. I think I would prefer that to having my fingernails pulled out with a pliars.

We have to remember these prisoners are not a persecuted religious sect like Adventists will be. They are not even enemy soldiers that were drafted or joined a nation's military. These are terrorists that attack innocent, unarmed civilians. They are bad people. They are closer to members of the mafia than enemy soldiers. Of course we need to respect their human rights but should psychological torture be off limits?

[Neil D]

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We have to remember these prisoners are not a persecuted religious sect like Adventists will be. They are not even enemy soldiers that were drafted or joined a nation's military. These are terrorists that attack innocent, unarmed civilians. They are bad people. They are closer to members of the mafia than enemy soldiers. Of course we need to respect their human rights but should psychological torture be off limits?

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From the american perspective, I would guess that these people could be called "terrorists"...However, if you concider thier perspective, you might just want to rethink our part in thier becoming hatefilled of americans...Concider...our economic policies tend to keep some of these people poor, and out of work...no work, means idle hands and time to ponder and worry over what is causing the economic problems...time to see more policys coming from america...Counter culture Western pictures from Hollywood causes more antaganism against the US. ...Also the biggest problem, the supporting of Isreal, whose own policys cause a recial, economic rift between palestian and Isreali...And the US supports everything that oppesess them...Makes becoming a jihadist more tempting...at least more exciting than laying around with time on your hands, unable to get a job. And instead of dy ing an old man, you go out with a bang and next thing you know, you have 70 virgins to keep entertained.

[Dr. Shane]

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if you concider thier perspective...

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Same can be said of the mafia. From the law-abiding citizens' perspective, those in the mafia are just a bunch of thugs that blackmale business owners into paying for "protection", sell drugs, sell illegal weapons, launder money and corrupt law enforcement and politicians. To the normal folks, those in the mafia are just a bunch of bad people.

However if we look at things through the mafia's view we see "victems" of society. They were born in poverty and cutting a guy's throut (literally) is their only way out. They don't see themselves as criminals but rather as "businessmen". Yes, it's a perspective that makes the average man want to vomit but it's their view of themselves.

The terrorists see themselves as being justified too. They somehow are able to generate this idea that somehow they are victems of the US. Or that the Jews have stolen their land and the US needs to die too since the US helped them steal it. It is a goofy mindset and certainly not one for a rational person to be sympathetic with.

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our economic policies tend to keep some of these people poor

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Our free trade policies mean better jobs for those in third world countries. Everytime an American factory is built overseas that means jobs paying livable wages for hundreds trapped in poverty. Our high petrolium use has made many Arab countries very wealthy.

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Counter culture Western pictures from Hollywood causes more antaganism against the US. ...

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I have never been one to defend Hollywood. However what antaganises Islamic fundamentalists is the flagrant sexuality, condoning of the gay lifestyle, inmodest dress and women having equal rights with men.

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the biggest problem, the supporting of Isreal, whose own policys cause a recial, economic rift between palestian and Isreali

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That, I suggest, is the only problem. If the US would let Islamic fundamentalists finish the job that Hitler started, all the difference between the US and them would be forgotten. However if the surrounding nations like Egypt, Jordon, Lebanon and Syria let Palastianians immergrate and live in their nations as naturalized citizens (not refugees) the problem would be solved. But

Islamic fundamentalists don't want a solution, they want war.

[Neil D]

spoken like an american....

[Bravus]

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2005/11/10/torture/