Doctrines of Devils and Seducing Spirits, Spiritual Formation

[Gregory Matthews]

Dr. Waite, I clearly stated that my reference citation was not claimed to be the best listing. While I did not say so, I also do not claim that it was accurate in every thing.

You made the following statement:

Quote:

Fundamental Belief number 5 states that the holy spirit comes in the name of "GOD THE ETERNAL SPIRIT" or "GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT" Is this a false doctrine?

I found your statement to be interesting. So, I commented on it. My comment was made in a manner that all could come to their own conclusion.

[Reddogs]

Originally Posted By: Reddogs

What question would you like answered, as the issue has been laid out in a clear manner from my perspective, but I will await your question.

Now let me ask a question in return, as for the real conversion, how do you think 'Rock and Roll' converts one and how does it uplift, and which direction in their spiritual lives does it take most people, explain that to me?

[Now take into account I grew up in the time of the music from 'Black Sabbath, Led Zep, and Santana' so I would honestly like a answer on that]

I asked you these questions.

Quote:

How do you really determine the tares though?

Does the Bible anywhere specifically forbid meditation and contemplative prayer?

Does the Bible anywhere specifically forbid drums and other types of music?

Did the early church, and I mean at the time of Christ and after his death, have a hymn book with praise songs?

Jesus went into the desert wilderness and fasted for 40 days. Was he not out there depriving his body of food, and getting in a "spiritual" frame of mind? How does this differ really from this so called spiritual formation?

Why would you deny others a place of worship by forbidding them to rent your church for their Sunday service? They may have a somewhat different theology than you, but they are still just as likely to be God fearing, gospel searching Christians just like you. Just the fact that they are going to an SDA church for their Sunday worship may inspire them to look and why you worship on the day that you do.

I would really like a direct answer to each of them individually.

When I get that I will answer your question.

I will give you one answer, spiritual things are spiritually discerned. I don't have to be a theologian to see the effects that it has, or a scholar to find the cause. If you try to break them down like the Pharisees and pull them apart, and dissect them in their most minute form, it is most often than not, for another purpose other than to see what they truly are.

When a person comes and lies about their work in the church, straight up in front of witnesses and before God, then goes and does the very thing they said they would not do, are they doing good or evil. You could use logic, philosophy or great arguments to say they are doing a great work and are the 'wheat' of scripture, but if they are spiritually bankrupt with no fear of God, none of that is true.

Remember Ananias....

Acts 5:3

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

[Stan]

Why is it, when people talk about wheat and tares, sheep and goats etc, everyone acts like they are the wheat or sheep?

[Reddogs]

"In his keynote sermon, Ted N.C. Wilson, the President of the Seventh-Day Adventist church counseled,

“Stay away from non-biblical spiritual disciplines or methods of spiritual formation that are rooted in mysticism such as contemplative prayer, centering prayer, and the emerging church movement in which they are promoted.”

Why would Elder Wilson ask us to stay away from spiritual disciplines or formation? But it appears there are whole conferences who are going full force into these dangerous practices. The spiritual formation movement is spreading in our church but it is a move away from the truth of God's Word into a mystical form of Christianity, and it has infiltrated, to some degree, nearly all Christian denominations."

I think that this is ridiculous. To make the video that they did, acting as if they are against Spiritual Formation, when its all through the Church now. It reminds me of Aaron when he was like, wow... I was just going along and this GOLDEN CALF just sort of popped up!

And the way that Derek Morris, or whatever his name is, I cannot recall... acts like he just realized that Spiritual Formation was wrong. OH really?

These guys are like, "Oh wow... you mean its wrong for Seventh Day Adventists to be doing the Jesuit Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius Loyola? I didn't realize that!" Who are they trying to fool anyway? I guess it must be working though, there are plenty enough naïve and gullible Adventists who believe they all just didn't realize that they were doing anything wrong. Its probably just that they got caught and so now they have got to back peddle and act as if they didn't know what they were doing.

Thing is, the Conference is not backpedaling as far as we have seen and heard, they are going full force and intent to get it into every church down to every member, not good.

[Reddogs]

Quote:

Why would Elder Wilson ask us to stay away from spiritual disciplines or formation? But it appears there are whole conferences who are going full force into these dangerous practices.

Maybe there are assumptions that what was spoken against is the same as what is being practised?

Among certain peoples there is a fear of certain 'words' with out understanding the definitions there of or what the various meanings may actually be. How many 'conferences' have you asked, verified or asertained in any way as to what type of practises they have and do they fit with what Wilson was speaking against?

My own family and friends were taken to Willow Creek by a pastor for 'training', and we started a church on the model they had, and we saw the results.

Check for yourself and find the answer, it certainly is out West, and here in the South, and in the islands, and from the GC Presidents own speech it certainly is a major issue, but why don't you look around and come back with your own words with what you find. Don't rely on others or me, see with your own eyes and ears........

[Reddogs]

Why is it, when people talk about wheat and tares, sheep and goats etc, everyone acts like they are the wheat or sheep?

I haven't said anywhere that I am perfect, I am just the messenger......

[Dr. Waite]

"That most of the leading SDA pioneers were non-Trinitarian in their theology has become accepted Adventist history....More recently, a further question has arisen with increasing urgency: was the pioneers' belief about the Godhead right or wrong? ...As one line of reasoning goes, either the pioneers were wrong and the present Church is right or the pioneers were right and the present Seventh-day Adventist Church has apostasized from biblical truth." (Jerry Moon "The Trinity", page 190)

Were the pioneers teaching regarding the Godhead the doctrine of devils and seducing spirits or is the present SDA church teaching regarding the Godhead the doctrine of devils and seducing spirits?

[CoAspen]

Quote:

I will give you one answer, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

I will be blunt...The above is not an answer to any of the questions posted. The above is very much the sentence for those who can not answer or will not answer. It may sound 'pious' but means nothing. It is empty.

[Stan]

test

[Reddogs]

Quote:

I will give you one answer, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

I will be blunt...The above is not an answer to any of the questions posted. The above is very much the sentence for those who can not answer or will not answer. It may sound 'pious' but means nothing. It is empty.

So you say, but we don't need to listen to 'strange' music to see if it brings up the carnal, or go clubbing to see where it leads, or have alcohol to see its affects, you forget as scripture says, there are those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

[debbym]

Quote:

Were the pioneers teaching regarding the Godhead the doctrine of devils and seducing spirits or is the present SDA church teaching regarding the Godhead the doctrine of devils and seducing spirits?

this thread is regarding the issue of spiritualism, not various thoughts about the differing views of the trinity in the history of the sda church.

however in the early history of the SDA church there was what was called the alpha of the final work of the deceiver to destroy faith, and this was regarded as a form of spiritualism. it has also been called poly-pantheism or some variant. the oneness of all, and the Christ consciousness in all the material universe, generalizes God into a nebulous invading presence to connect to God through connecting to all the universe. poly-pantheism brings it back to the private special relationship between you and your individual God, with particular agendas rather than connecting and being one with the universe, internal and not so abstract.

this are just my casual take on these things from conversations i have had, things i have read and discussed, i am no authority on this.

relationship of pantheism to polypantheism

and it was mentioned the omega of this work of deception would come. some might say the omega had it's development and display in the power of television to hypnotize and subliminally sow and grow unbelief, and selfishness, and immorality of every kind. E white said theatrical amusements had the power to erase divine impressions from the mind. What is a common event is, after Sabbath put on a powerful movie, and bask away in the glow of the screen.

others are saying the exercise of religion, with altered states of mind, ie the use of mantras and going into the the silence, and practices used to get in "touch" with God, including the Christ consciousness in all creation, is a species of spiritualism. in addition, doing this in the name of Jesus without the Spirit of Truth, is the omega of the work of the deceiver in the final days before Christ appears.

others might complain that the cornucopia of drugs that soothe away the ills of mankind is a final destroyer of the mind's ability to discern truth. the pharmaceutical treatment of the mind, and the mood, promises to correct all the ills that are developing in the modern world.

some especially fear education, that explains away creation, invents political correctness, embraces homosexuality as a divine norm, centers on logic and reason that destroys faith, and leaves the human being subject only to their "refined" passions and without the restraint of the Holy Spirit.

some say if we just got it right on the trinity we could all pack our bags for heaven.

it seems there are different strokes for different folks.

and there is a plan designed for each person to throw them off the track of the humble path Jesus walked, and showed us the way, and calls us to by the Holy Spirit. Either Jesus is leading us or we are lead by another. we are told to try all things and hold fast that which is good. there is just not one basket for all. what tempts one person has no attraction in any way for another.

indeed there are many false ways, probably as many false ways as their are brain cells to follow them. but only One Christ who is eternal, who came and was born into humanity and only One Spirit and one Intercessor for all.

[M. T. Cross]

What question would you like answered, as the issue has been laid out in a clear manner from my perspective, but I will await your question.

Now let me ask a question in return, as for the real conversion, how do you think 'Rock and Roll' converts one and how does it uplift, and which direction in their spiritual lives does it take most people, explain that to me?

[Now take into account I grew up in the time of the music from 'Black Sabbath, Led Zep, and Santana' so I would honestly like a answer on that]

[Gregory Matthews]

MT, you probably were not asking your questions of me. But, I will respond to them:

Quote:

How do you really determine the tares though?

The Biblical answer, as I understand it is: I do not. That is the work of God.

Quote:

Does the Bible anywhere specifically forbid meditation and contemplative prayer?

No, the Bible does not. Most things can be in practice either for good or for evil. Meditation is probably one of these. As practiced it can be either good or evil.

Quote:

Does the Bible anywhere specifically forbid drums and other types of music?

No. This answer is mostly a product of the culture. In a society where drums have been to summon the spirits of the dead, they would likely not be acceptable in a Christian service. In other cultures, they would be acceptable.

Quote:

Did the early church, and I mean at the time of Christ and after his death, have a hymn book with praise songs?

I want to give you a yes/no answer. But, I really do not have the information that I need to do so. So, I do not know.

Quote:

Jesus went into the desert wilderness and fasted for 40 days. Was he not out there depriving his body of food, and getting in a "spiritual" frame of mind? How does this differ really from this so called spiritual formation?

I really do not know enough about what you mean by "spiritual formation" to answer you.

Quote:

Why would you deny others a place of worship by forbidding them to rent your church for their Sunday service? They may have a somewhat different theology than you, but they are still just as likely to be God fearing, gospel searching Christians just like you. Just the fact that they are going to an SDA church for their Sunday worship may inspire them to look and why you worship on the day that you do.

Many SDA congregations rent their church out to congregations who worship on Sunday. On primary consideration would be: Does doing this conflict with the need of the SDA Congregation to use their building?

I believe that there are ethical implications of a congregation that would rent from a Sunday congregation and then not respond in kind if they had a building.

[M. T. Cross]

Great answers Greg, thank you for taking the time to answer the questions.

[Gregory Matthews]

My pleasure.

While you are I often disagree, I have a lot of respect for you as to how you relate to us in this forum.

[Dr. Waite]

You did not answer my question which was:

"Were the pioneers teaching regarding the Godhead the doctrine of devils and seducing spirits or is the present SDA church teaching regarding the Godhead the doctrine of devils and seducing spirits?"

The pioneers teaching regarding the Godhead (divinity or divine nature) was their teaching regarding "Christ, His Mission and His priesthood" :

Quote:

Many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid. My husband, Elder Joseph Bates, Father Pierce, Elder {Hiram} Edson, and others who were keen, noble, and true, were among those who, after the passing of the time in 1844, searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with them, and we studied and prayed earnestly. Often we remained together until late at night, and sometimes through the entire night, praying for light and studying the Word. Again and again these brethren came together to study the Bible, in order that they might know its meaning, and be prepared to teach it with power. When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, His mission, and His priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me. {1SM 206.4}

Did trinity doctrine adopted at the 1980 Dallas General Conference session render as error the pioneers' teaching regarding "Christ, His mission, and His priesthood" referred to in the above quote?

[M. T. Cross]

My pleasure.

While you are I often disagree, I have a lot of respect for you as to how you relate to us in this forum.

Thank you Greg, and the feeling is mutual.

[Reddogs]

You did not answer my question which was:

"Were the pioneers teaching regarding the Godhead the doctrine of devils and seducing spirits or is the present SDA church teaching regarding the Godhead the doctrine of devils and seducing spirits?"

The pioneers teaching regarding the Godhead (divinity or divine nature) was their teaching regarding "Christ, His Mission and His priesthood" :

Quote:

Many of our people do not realize how firmly the foundation of our faith has been laid. My husband, Elder Joseph Bates, Father Pierce, Elder {Hiram} Edson, and others who were keen, noble, and true, were among those who, after the passing of the time in 1844, searched for the truth as for hidden treasure. I met with them, and we studied and prayed earnestly. Often we remained together until late at night, and sometimes through the entire night, praying for light and studying the Word. Again and again these brethren came together to study the Bible, in order that they might know its meaning, and be prepared to teach it with power. When they came to the point in their study where they said, "We can do nothing more," the Spirit of the Lord would come upon me, I would be taken off in vision, and a clear explanation of the passages we had been studying would be given me, with instruction as to how we were to labor and teach effectively. Thus light was given that helped us to understand the scriptures in regard to Christ, His mission, and His priesthood. A line of truth extending from that time to the time when we shall enter the city of God, was made plain to me, and I gave to others the instruction that the Lord had given me. {1SM 206.4}

Did trinity doctrine adopted at the 1980 Dallas General Conference session render as error the pioneers' teaching regarding "Christ, His mission, and His priesthood" referred to in the above quote?

That is for a different thread, we need to create one to go over those questions to see what we find. Here I started a discussion on the GodHead...

[Reddogs]

Here is something I came across that gives some light on this issue...it is on the Facebook page for 'Spiritual Formation'.

http://www.facebook.com/events/208325265908521/

'From John the Evangelist and Paul the Apostle to Thomas Merton and Evelyn Underhill, Christianity has been blessed by a variety of men and women, clergy and laypersons, Catholics and Protestants, known as mystics — persons who have had profound and life-changing experiences of the presence of God, and even of union with God. But do the great mystics have anything to say to us today? This program will introduce you to some of the greatest Christian mystics, from well-known figures like Francis of Assisi and... Julian of Norwich to lesser known (but important) individuals like John Cassian and Jan Ruusbroec. We’ll look at some of their key writings, reflect on the major themes and principles of Christian mysticism, explore how their teachings on prayer can be applied in our lives today, and discuss how we can apply their wisdom to Christian discipleship here in the third millennium. Our schedule will include presentations, small group discussion, shared silence and prayer...'

This is nothing but Eastern mysticisms veiled with 'Christian' words and format just like the 'saints' converted from the pagan idols and brought into the Catholic church, just rename it and sneaks in.

I heard that Derek J. Morris, has changed his tune but when he was Professor of Homiletics and Pastoral Theology at Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists, he produced a paper calling for Spiritual Formation in Adventism. Its title was “Spiritual Formation in Ministry. ”In this talk and paper, calling for Spiritual Formation in ministry, you have a stunning revelation of the inner working of Spiritual Directors. “I would like to explore with you this morning the process of spiritual direction and its relevance as a dynamic for spiritual formation in ministry.” –Derek Morris, Spiritual Formation in Ministry.

Morris Credits Jesuits With Preserving Spiritual Direction Derek writes, “For much of the Christian era the practice of spiritual direction was confined to Catholicism, particularly monasticism and the Society of Jesus [the Jesuits]. In recent years, there has been a revival of interest in spiritual direction as a resource for spiritual formation among both Catholics and Protestants. A leading Protestant advocate of spiritual formation is Tilden Edwards, director of the Shalem Institute for Spiritual Formation in Washington, D.C. [CC note: Adventist Chaplaincy Ministries is promoting the Shalem Institute as the leading place for studying to become a Spiritual Director. Shalem is staffed with Roman Catholic nuns who are experts in the Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius Loyola,founder of the Jesuits, with Episcopal priests, psychiatrists, etc.] As I began my own prayer search for a spiritual friend, I came across the significant work by Tilden Edwards, Spiritual Friend: Reclaiming the Gift of Spiritual Direction. I [Derek Morris] strongly recommend this book as a valuable resource….http://endrtimes.blogspot.com/2011/01/gc-imposes-spiritual-formation-globally.html

In concluding his paper, Derek Morris recommends that the young theology student, who leaves the seminary for his first parish, should get a Spiritual Director as soon as he arrives at his parish: “In the years that followed I discovered experientially what Roy Oswald had concluded from his research of 102 Seminary graduates some years before: Crossing the boundary for Seminary to parish is never easy. Moreover, the need for personal spiritual formation is ongoing. However, the process of spiritual direction is a tremendous resource. He notes that ‘Those who had the good fortune of finding a spiritual father/mother/friend as they begun in the parish found the going somewhat easier.’ [Oswald. P. 18.]” –Derek Morris, Spiritual Formation in Ministry, pp. 11, 12. And that is the point of Morris’ entire paper from the first to the last paragraph, that Seminary students need to find a Spiritual Director and to be under the direction of a Spiritual Director when they begin their work as a pastor in the field.

This ancient and revived spiritual formation movement is sweeping through the churches of Protestantism, and we are falling in step in the Adventist church. The spiritual formation movement is coming in and making churches and members move away from the truth of God's Word to a mystical form of Christianity. It has infiltrated nearly all denominations I heard even the Jehovah Witnesses have been affected from a close friend whose family still is in the JW. This movement of spiritual formation is based on the premise that if we do certain practices, we can be more like Jesus. Those pushing spiritual formation in error teach that anyone can practice these mystical rituals and find God within themselves, it is nothing but Eastern/New Age mysticism. Pantheism teaches God is an impersonal presence pervading all creation and combines the idea of the pervasive presence with theism, (a personal God), and that each created being has a spark of divinity within. This form of spiritual formation movement is much more subtle and dangerous than pantheism, since the adherents believe they are still worshiping the personal God of the Bible, but it is another.

So we have to ask ourselves, why are Conference and other Adventist leaders promoting and forcing on the churches and members spiritual formation with its pantheism and Eastern/New Age mysticism. By participating in Willow Creek, are we not being mere reflectors of other people’s false doctrines and spiritualistic techniques or ecstatic practices and ecstatic trance to evoke 'visionary experience', and connect with spirits and nature. The spiritual disciplines, and depending on the one teaching it can entail for example, solitude, silence, exile, fasting, night vigils, frugality, chastity, secrecy, sacrifice, celebration into ectasy, submission to a spiritual director, are a works-based, man-centered religion, where they attempt to use asceticism to approach nearer to God. Jesus warned us against "vain repetitions as the heathen do", Matt. 6:7, nor are we to take Jesus' name in vain. Catholics and Protestants have gone to Eastern/New Age mysticism and even Buddhist and Hinduism to master this pagan technique. This spiritualistic deception has become the common link between all world religions, uniting under spiritualism, Protestants, Catholic, and pagans....

Why is it Ellen White is being taken out of our churches or shunted aside to bring in these practices, is it because she clearly warns of this coming spiritualism. It is no wonder that Ellen White "of a most startling nature". If God is in each of us as these spiritual disciplines teach, and thus bring this into our belief, that makes us gods ourselves, we have no need of a Savior.While the Bible is very clear that God desires to live in us, and that the born again Christian chooses to live by and with the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, it by no means does the created person take on attributes of the Creator, such as omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience, Etc. Even when human beings take on immortality at the second Coming of Christ, and will no longer ever be subject to death again, resurrected incorruptible, still they are created beings, and as such, are not partakers of that which belong to God and God alone. Any teaching making claims contrary to this is not Biblical.

[Reddogs]

"We may disguise poison by mingling it with wholesome food, but we do not change its nature. On the contrary, it is rendered more dangerous, as it is more likely to be taken unawares. It is one of Satan's devices to combine with falsehood just enough truth to give it plausibility." (Great Controversy, 587.1)

[Tom Wetmore]

A Thought-terminating Cliche...

Maybe true on some level, this idea of a drop of poison polluting the whole of something.

But stop and think. Proportion. Relative strength. A drop of poison in the ocean will not kill much of anything. And poison poured into a neutralizing agent will cause no harm at all. A small amount of an antibiotic will neutralize a large amount of harmful bacteria.

And then there is the helpful mechanism of filtering and purification processes. Putting corrupted water through an appropriate filter makes it very potable. In the context of the topic at hand, we have various filtering mechanisms and purification processes to apply that quite effectively sort out the bad from the good, leaving us with some life giving water.

The sad fact is that some seem to think finding trace amounts of something is absolute grounds for not only throwing the baby out with the bath water, but making people afraid to drink any water or even use it for any other intended use. Further discussion is cut off by invoking various thought-terminating cliches that seem superficially valid and sufficiently fear inducing as to shut down any further reasonable, rational consideration and analysis. Much is lost in the process. Much of value is missed. Fear is a terrible tool and a useful ally for ignorance.

[Reddogs]

A Thought-terminating Cliche...

Maybe true on some level, this idea of a drop of poison polluting the whole of something.

But stop and think. Proportion. Relative strength. A drop of poison in the ocean will not kill much of anything. And poison poured into a neutralizing agent will cause no harm at all. A small amount of an antibiotic will neutralize a large amount of harmful bacteria.

And then there is the helpful mechanism of filtering and purification processes. Putting corrupted water through an appropriate filter makes it very potable. In the context of the topic at hand, we have various filtering mechanisms and purification processes to apply that quite effectively sort out the bad from the good, leaving us with some life giving water.

The sad fact is that some seem to think finding trace amounts of something is absolute grounds for not only throwing the baby out with the bath water, but making people afraid to drink any water or even use it for any other intended use. Further discussion is cut off by invoking various thought-terminating cliches that seem superficially valid and sufficiently fear inducing as to shut down any further reasonable, rational consideration and analysis. Much is lost in the process. Much of value is missed. Fear is a terrible tool and a useful ally for ignorance.

Yes, but if you put the 'poison' at a key point, a leaders food or drink it can become critical or devastating. Or to put it another way, rather than poison a well placed sniper, one bullet never did so much collective harm to America as Oswald's hitting JFK.

We are having this 'poison' forced at the key points in the schools, conference and church level. When you get a new pastor who teaches this, or a conference leader who forces it on your church or a church board setting up training for the members in the church, you have some of the key points in the church, and that's were we are at......

[CoAspen]

The only 'poison' is the desire for 'correctness' and becoming like the ancient Jewish leaders. Man can not be correct or have true knowledge of such, only God can. Everyone has to look to Christ, not to others who have the same faults as ourselves. Constantly pointing out perceived 'poisons' means the individual does not have their eyes on Christ.

[Tom Wetmore]

Missing the point...

[M. T. Cross]

Still waiting for an answer...........