Doctrines of Devils and Seducing Spirits, Spiritual Formation

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

A Thought-terminating Cliche...

Maybe true on some level, this idea of a drop of poison polluting the whole of something.

But stop and think. Proportion. Relative strength. A drop of poison in the ocean will not kill much of anything. And poison poured into a neutralizing agent will cause no harm at all. A small amount of an antibiotic will neutralize a large amount of harmful bacteria.

And then there is the helpful mechanism of filtering and purification processes. Putting corrupted water through an appropriate filter makes it very potable. In the context of the topic at hand, we have various filtering mechanisms and purification processes to apply that quite effectively sort out the bad from the good, leaving us with some life giving water.

The sad fact is that some seem to think finding trace amounts of something is absolute grounds for not only throwing the baby out with the bath water, but making people afraid to drink any water or even use it for any other intended use. Further discussion is cut off by invoking various thought-terminating cliches that seem superficially valid and sufficiently fear inducing as to shut down any further reasonable, rational consideration and analysis. Much is lost in the process. Much of value is missed. Fear is a terrible tool and a useful ally for ignorance.

GREAT analogy!!!

[Reddogs]

The only 'poison' is the desire for 'correctness' and becoming like the ancient Jewish leaders. Man can not be correct or have true knowledge of such, only God can. Everyone has to look to Christ, not to others who have the same faults as ourselves. Constantly pointing out perceived 'poisons' means the individual does not have their eyes on Christ.

So when they throw out all your elders, and church founder, and leaders from your church board and disregard the church manual and fill it without nominations with people who are not fit to pass the standards of a deacon or worse, just so they can force spiritual formation, and basically gut out Sabbath worship leaving a mockery of form so they can promote the 'disciplines' to the members, we should just sit on our hands. Just so we don't get accused of wanting correctness, interesting.....

[Reddogs]

The 'poison' is not diluted, its being fed in full strength to the individual churchs by these new pastors coming out of the now required teaching of these 'spiritual disciplines'. Check the theology departments at the Adventist colleges and this is now the standard for those seeking theology degrees, and ask your local conference and listen carefully to their answers.....

[CoAspen]

As previously mentioned.....Missing the point!!

[Reddogs]

The only 'poison' is the desire for 'correctness' and becoming like the ancient Jewish leaders. Man can not be correct or have true knowledge of such, only God can. Everyone has to look to Christ, not to others who have the same faults as ourselves. Constantly pointing out perceived 'poisons' means the individual does not have their eyes on Christ.

"Desire for Correctness", I hate to tell you my brother, you cant be further from truth. We were the original 'Wild Bunch'. Nothing was forbidden that we couldn't try or do, and when we came back from college, we chafed at the form of worship we found and started our own church service in the fellowship hall of one of the largest churches in the area.

We looked to see if we could start a church with more dynamic worship service and when one of the pastors in the area offered to sponsor us, we jumped at the chance. He took those who were leading out in the group to Willow Creek for training on church growth, and when my sister described it, I didn't even question what they were learning, or the concepts we were implementing as we founded a 'celebration church'.

Well, the effects were slow, but I took note that slowly the foundational truths of Adventism were set aside and church growth became the focus. No need to be changed or converted, just continue as you became the replacement, and slowly we drifted into what can only be characterized as stagnant.

Then eventually I found out how the church board had itself become influenced and had implemented some of the changes, which I can only say led us away from Adventism. So from experience I can tell you were it leads, not ideas of 'correctness'.

[Reddogs]

Now this all happened before the teachings of "spiritual formation/disciplines" became part of the training regimen of Willow Creek, or at least before it came to the forefront of it.

I also came across a book recommended to me which I think everyone should read, its called 'The Omega Rebellion' by SDA retired pastor Rick Howard. It speaks directly to the spiritual formation, contemplative prayer, and the emergent church and how they relate to each other. He shows how contemplative prayer is the same as the transcendental meditation just with a changed name.

Here is Ellen White linked to this pantheistic ideas when the Adventist church was facing the same heresies a hundred years ago when they were going through the Kellogg debacle.

"...We need not the mysticism that is in this book (Kellogg's book). Those who entertain these sophistries will soon find themselves in a position where the enemy can talk to them, and lead them away from God...."

The book tells how Rick Howard personally studied and practiced a number of mystical teachings while he wasn't a Christian yet, and his views on it now. He writes that ..."Spiritual formation, contemplative prayer, "lectio divina" and all other teachings and techniques, used for implementing this new spirituality into the ranks of seventh day Adventist, according to the author, are nothing else but modification of the ancient occult practices...."

Now look closely at who supported the 'Alpha' deception when John Kellogg came out with his book which cause the start of it in the church.

"I was forbidden to talk with Dr. Kellogg on this subject, because it is not a subject to be talked about. And I was instructed that certain sentiments in Living Temple were the Alpha of a long list of deceptive theories. {1SAT 343.4}

These sentiments have had an effect on our people everywhere. ... Years ago I did not think that they would meet these errors right in the Sanitarium; but when Living Temple came out, and some of our ministers told me that there was in it nothing but what I had been teaching all my life, I saw how great the danger was. I saw that blindness had fallen upon some who had long known the truth. I pray that the Lord will open the eyes of these ministers, that they may see the differences between light and darkness, and between truth and error. {1SAT 343.5}

Note closely, it was ministers telling Ellen White that the apostasy that she is correcting, is the very thing that she has been teaching. If the Omega Apostasy is worse than the Alpha, would that impact again the ministers just as in the time of Ellen White, seems like the shoe fits.

[CoAspen]

You are still finger pointing......with out sin cast the first stone.....remember?

[Reddogs]

You are still finger pointing......with out sin cast the first stone.....remember?

How, please elaborate...

[Dr. Waite]

"I was forbidden to talk with Dr. Kellogg on this subject, because it is not a subject to be talked about. And I was instructed that certain sentiments in Living Temple were the Alpha of a long list of deceptive theories. {1SAT 343.4}

According to Dr. Kellogg, what were the sentiments in the Living Temple that were the Alpha of a long list of deceptive theories?

In a letter to G.C. President A.G. Daniels, Dr. Kellogg stated that his former views regarding the trinity had stood in his way of making a clear and absolutely correct statement (regarding God's presence); but within a short time he had come to believe in the trinity and could now see pretty clearly where all the difficulty was, and believed that he could clear the matter up satisfactorily. He (Kellogg) told me (A.G. Daniels) that he now believed in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost; and his view was that it was God the Holy Ghost, and not God the Father, that filled all space, and every living thing. He said that if he had believed this before writing the book, he could have expressed his views without giving the wrong impression the book now gives.

What did Ellen White say about Kellogg's revision?

"It will be said that Living Temple has been revised. But the Lord has shown me that the writer has not changed, and that there can be no unity between him and the ministers of the gospel while he continues to cherish his present sentiments. I am bidden to lift my voice in warning to our people, saying, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked" (Gal. 6:7). {1SM 199.3}"

In writing to Dr. Kellogg, Ellen White stated:

"You are not definitely clear on the personality of God, which is everything to us as a people. You are virtually destroyed the Lord God Himself." Letter 300, 1903.

In a letter to G.I. Butler, Dr. Kellogg narrowed down the whole controversy to this -

“As far as I can fathom, the difficulty which is found in ‘The Living Temple’, the whole thing may be simmered down to the question: Is the Holy Ghost a person? You say no. I had supposed the Bible said this for the reason that the personal pronoun ‘he’ is used in speaking of the Holy Ghost. Sister White uses the pronoun ‘he’ and has said in so many words that the Holy Ghost is the third person of the Godhead. How the Holy Ghost can be the third person and not be a person at all is difficult for me to see.” Letter: J H Kellogg to G I

Butler. Oct 28. 1903.

Was Dr. Kellogg teaching the same thing that Ellen White was teaching regarding the personality of God?

"I am compelled to speak in denial of the claim that the teachings of Living Temple can be sustained by statements from my writings. There may be in this book expressions and sentiments that are in harmony with my writings. And there may be in my writings many statements which, taken from their connection, and interpreted according to the mind of the writer of Living Temple, would seem to be in harmony with the teachings of this book. This may give apparent support to the assertion that the sentiments in Living Temple are in harmony with my writings. But God forbid that this sentiment should prevail. {1SM 203.3}"

[Stan]

Even though EGW and JHK had significant differences, they remained close friends, until the death of EGW.

We could all learn something from that.

[CoAspen]

Really? You do not understand yourself and your words?

Hmmmmmm...........

[Reddogs]

"I was forbidden to talk with Dr. Kellogg on this subject, because it is not a subject to be talked about. And I was instructed that certain sentiments in Living Temple were the Alpha of a long list of deceptive theories. {1SAT 343.4}

According to Dr. Kellogg, what were the sentiments in the Living Temple that were the Alpha of a long list of deceptive theories?

In a letter to G.C. President A.G. Daniels, Dr. Kellogg stated that his former views regarding the trinity had stood in his way of making a clear and absolutely correct statement (regarding God's presence); but within a short time he had come to believe in the trinity and could now see pretty clearly where all the difficulty was, and believed that he could clear the matter up satisfactorily. He (Kellogg) told me (A.G. Daniels) that he now believed in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost; and his view was that it was God the Holy Ghost, and not God the Father, that filled all space, and every living thing. He said that if he had believed this before writing the book, he could have expressed his views without giving the wrong impression the book now gives.

What did Ellen White say about Kellogg's revision?

"It will be said that Living Temple has been revised. But the Lord has shown me that the writer has not changed, and that there can be no unity between him and the ministers of the gospel while he continues to cherish his present sentiments. I am bidden to lift my voice in warning to our people, saying, "Be not deceived; God is not mocked" (Gal. 6:7). {1SM 199.3}"

In writing to Dr. Kellogg, Ellen White stated:

"You are not definitely clear on the personality of God, which is everything to us as a people. You are virtually destroyed the Lord God Himself." Letter 300, 1903.

In a letter to G.I. Butler, Dr. Kellogg narrowed down the whole controversy to this -

“As far as I can fathom, the difficulty which is found in ‘The Living Temple’, the whole thing may be simmered down to the question: Is the Holy Ghost a person? You say no. I had supposed the Bible said this for the reason that the personal pronoun ‘he’ is used in speaking of the Holy Ghost. Sister White uses the pronoun ‘he’ and has said in so many words that the Holy Ghost is the third person of the Godhead. How the Holy Ghost can be the third person and not be a person at all is difficult for me to see.” Letter: J H Kellogg to G I

Butler. Oct 28. 1903.

Was Dr. Kellogg teaching the same thing that Ellen White was teaching regarding the personality of God?

"I am compelled to speak in denial of the claim that the teachings of Living Temple can be sustained by statements from my writings. There may be in this book expressions and sentiments that are in harmony with my writings. And there may be in my writings many statements which, taken from their connection, and interpreted according to the mind of the writer of Living Temple, would seem to be in harmony with the teachings of this book. This may give apparent support to the assertion that the sentiments in Living Temple are in harmony with my writings. But God forbid that this sentiment should prevail. {1SM 203.3}"

Very nice post on the problem Dr. Kellogg created for himself, and shows his confusion on this core doctrine.

[Reddogs]

Even though EGW and JHK had significant differences, they remained close friends, until the death of EGW.

We could all learn something from that.

Christ loved Judas too, didn't stop him from the acts which led to his self destruction. Need to be discerning of what we are shown to keep us from path to eternal damnation....

[phkrause]

That's exactly what Stan is saying without being sarcastic.

[Reddogs]

That's exactly what Stan is saying without being sarcastic.

Well we have before us these 'doctrines' of Spiritual Formation and Disciplines which like the deceptions Dr. Kellogg went into will lead many to self destruction and damnation. Do we just sit idly by and let them go, or do we strive out of love to make clear what it is and where it leads?

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

I also came across a book recommended to me which I think everyone should read, its called 'The Omega Rebellion' by SDA retired pastor Rick Howard. It speaks directly to the spiritual formation, contemplative prayer, and the emergent church and how they relate to each other. He shows how contemplative prayer is the same as the transcendental meditation just with a changed name.

I do not intend to get into a discussion of either that book or its author. But there are those who would challenge what you have stated above.

[Gail]

Quote:

I also came across a book recommended to me which I think everyone should read, its called 'The Omega Rebellion' by SDA retired pastor Rick Howard. It speaks directly to the spiritual formation, contemplative prayer, and the emergent church and how they relate to each other. He shows how contemplative prayer is the same as the transcendental meditation just with a changed name.

I do not intend to get into a discussion of either that book or its author. But there are those who would challenge what you have stated above.

Which was the response of some of our Conference, who were actually familiar with writings of Foster, etc. The complaint was that the book was too harsh and my manager eventually refused to carry it other than an order-in basis.

We have discussed this Emerging church topic much in the last couple of years. In my experience I don't know of anyone who adheres to the practises focused on, but I am not denying that it is out there. My heart cries for those who feel that their spirituality is so dry, having God's word at hand, that they need to try mantras or accept the Eucharist or icons to find the God of Scripture. Faith is when you don't have sight. The sight will come when faith is nurtured.

[Felix Florimon]

If you can use a technique to get closer to your god, to better understand his teachings, to grow in your relationship with him - where is the downside?

There is a problem with “spiritual formation.” This problem is that there is nothing wrong in having seminars that are specifically promoted as a Bible study seminars in order to learn to invite God’s Holy Spirit in our lives and minds. This would enable us to have a deeper understanding of God’s holy word and have our lives transformed by God’s Spirit; then we become better able to testify with words and actions in order to attract more souls to Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Now, when we just say “spiritual formation” and de-emphasize the teachings of Jesus, de-emphasize the work God’s Holy Spirit in our lives and de-emphasize our truthful mission of being God’s instrument to bring other people to the knowledge of Jesus then “spiritual formation” can easily become an open door to another spirit, the spirit of the devil in order get us highly occupied in details that have nothing to do in making God’s church more capable of winning more souls for Christ and have those souls always growing in the knowledge of truth based on the teachings that we find in the Bible. In other words, a gathering just seeking “spiritual formation” where people don’t gather in Jesus’ name and where God’s Holy Spirit is not invited to give us a deeper meaning found in God’s word, could easily become a meeting where angels of evil instead of bringing us closer to God could easily use human minds to distort the teachings in the Bible in order to further elaborate false doctrines of demons.

FF

[Gregory Matthews]

The focus of THE ONE PROJECT is Jesus Christ.

[LifeHiscost]

The focus of THE ONE PROJECT is Jesus

Christ.

Not having fully appraised myself of the written details putting forth the objectives of the PROJECT, I certainly cannot verify any rock bottom acceptance of their intentions. However having recently listened for the second time to Tony Palmer, a long time friend of Pope Francis, I can say his spoken details could mirror to some extent, the PROJECT'S objectives. The rub becomes more clear when his opinions of the doctrines and Truth are made plain according to what he said about them in his lecture.

A little known, at least to me, individual spoke about the glaring avoidance of Tony Palmer when pointing out his lack of any major sense of need for attention to either Truth or doctrines. While I disagreed with (known as father, not Catholic)what he said about just loving everyone, it wasn't until listening to Doug Batchelor's response to the same message, with Scripture given for his own conclusions, that I began to realize more fully just how close we are to the final events of earth's history before Jesus is scheduled to appear.

"But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”" Luke 21:28 NASB

Jesus/God saves!

[Reddogs]

Originally Posted By: M. T. Cross

If you can use a technique to get closer to your god, to better understand his teachings, to grow in your relationship with him - where is the downside?

There is a problem with “spiritual formation.” This problem is that there is nothing wrong in having seminars that are specifically promoted as a Bible study seminars in order to learn to invite God’s Holy Spirit in our lives and minds. This would enable us to have a deeper understanding of God’s holy word and have our lives transformed by God’s Spirit; then we become better able to testify with words and actions in order to attract more souls to Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Now, when we just say “spiritual formation” and de-emphasize the teachings of Jesus, de-emphasize the work God’s Holy Spirit in our lives and de-emphasize our truthful mission of being God’s instrument to bring other people to the knowledge of Jesus then “spiritual formation” can easily become an open door to another spirit, the spirit of the devil in order get us highly occupied in details that have nothing to do in making God’s church more capable of winning more souls for Christ and have those souls always growing in the knowledge of truth based on the teachings that we find in the Bible. In other words, a gathering just seeking “spiritual formation” where people don’t gather in Jesus’ name and where God’s Holy Spirit is not invited to give us a deeper meaning found in God’s word, could easily become a meeting where angels of evil instead of bringing us closer to God could easily use human minds to distort the teachings in the Bible in order to further elaborate false doctrines of demons.

FF

You are hitting the proverbial nail on the head...

[Reddogs]

Quote:

I also came across a book recommended to me which I think everyone should read, its called 'The Omega Rebellion' by SDA retired pastor Rick Howard. It speaks directly to the spiritual formation, contemplative prayer, and the emergent church and how they relate to each other. He shows how contemplative prayer is the same as the transcendental meditation just with a changed name.

I do not intend to get into a discussion of either that book or its author. But there are those who would challenge what you have stated above.

Ok, well lets look at another author who warned of the danger that would come, presenting itself as part of the 'true gospel' even amoung Adventist and laying claim as being led by the spirit of God, yet would not be not in harmony with God, or what Jesus Christ gave us to follow, so it cannot be from or of the Holy Spirit.....

"...Before the final visitation of God's judgments upon the earth there will be among the people of the Lord such a revival of primitive godliness as has not been witnessed since apostolic times. The Spirit and power of God will be poured out upon His children. At that time many will separate themselves from those churches in which the love of this world has supplanted love for God and His word. Many, both of ministers and people, will gladly accept those great truths which God has caused to be proclaimed at this time to prepare a people for the Lord's second coming.

The enemy of souls desires to hinder this work; and before the time for such a movement shall come, he will endeavor to prevent it by introducing a counterfeit. In those churches which he can bring under his deceptive power he will make it appear that God's special blessing is poured out; there will be manifest what is thought to be great religious interest. Multitudes will exult that God is working marvelously for them, when the work is that of another spirit. Under a religious guise, Satan will seek to extend his influence over the Christian world.

In many of the revivals which have occurred during the last half century, the same influences have been at work, to a greater or less degree, that will be manifest in the more extensive movements of the future. There is an emotional excitement, a mingling of the true with the false, that is well adapted to mislead. Yet none need be deceived. In the light of God's word it is not difficult to determine the nature of these movements. Wherever men neglect the testimony of the Bible, turning away from those plain, soul-testing truths which require self-denial and renunciation of the world, there we may be sure that God's blessing is not bestowed. And by the rule which Christ Himself has given, "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16), it is evident that these movements are not the work of the Spirit of God.

Maranatha ch.25

"I saw that God has honest children among the nominal Adventists and the fallen churches, and before the plagues shall be poured out, ministers and people will be called out from these churches; and will gladly receive the truth. Satan knows this; and before the loud cry of the third angel is given, he raises an excitement in these religious bodies, that those who have rejected the truth may think that God is with them. He hopes to deceive the honest and lead them to think that God is still working for the churches.But the light will shine, and all who are honest will leave the fallen churches, and take their stand with the remnant." --EW 261.

The Word of God declares that when it suits the enemy's purpose, he will through his agencies manifest so great a power under a pretence of Christianity that, "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" [Matt. 24:24].--Ms 125, 1901.

As the spirits will profess faith in the Bible and manifest respect for the institutions of the church,

their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power.--GC 588 (1911).

The strongest bulwark of vice in our world is not the iniquitous life of the abandoned sinner or the degraded outcast; it is that life which otherwise appears virtuous, honourable, and noble, but in which one sin is fostered, one vice indulged. . . . Genius, talent, sympathy, even generous and kindly deeds, may thus become decoys of Satan to entice souls over the precipice of ruin.--Ed 150 (1903).

Even in the Adventist Church

We have far more to fear from within than from without. The hindrances to strength and success are far greater from the church itself than from the world. Unbelievers have a right to expect that those who profess to be keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, will do more than any other class to promote and honour, by their consistent lives, by their godly example and their active influence, the cause which they represent. But how often have the professed advocates of the truth proved the greatest obstacle to its advancement! The unbelief indulged, the doubts expressed, the darkness cherished, encourage the presence of evil angels, and open the way for the accomplishment of Satan's devices.--1SM 122 (1887).

[LifeHiscost]

Bump

Quote:

The strongest bulwark of vice in our world is not the iniquitous life of the abandoned sinner or the degraded outcast; it is that life which otherwise appears virtuous, honourable, and noble, but in which one sin is fostered, one vice indulged. . . . Genius, talent, sympathy, even generous and kindly deeds, may thus become decoys of Satan to entice souls over the precipice of ruin.--Ed 150 (1903).

Even in the Adventist Church

We have far more to fear from within than from without. The hindrances to strength and success are far greater from the church itself than from the world. Unbelievers have a right to expect that those who profess to be keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, will do more than any other class to promote and honour, by their consistent lives, by their godly example and their active influence, the cause which they represent. But how often have the professed advocates of the truth proved the greatest obstacle to its advancement! The unbelief indulged, the doubts expressed, the darkness cherished, encourage the presence of evil angels, and open the way for the accomplishment of Satan's devices.--1SM 122 (1887).

Bump