Pacific Union Info on WO...

[Tom Wetmore]

Always helpful to see resources compiled in one place - http://session.adventistfaith.org

(Realizing this site has been previously posted, but buried in the pile of topics and posts...)

[CyberGuy]

some interesting facts

1990 vote on womans ordination

1173 NO  76%

377 Yes   24%

 

1995 vote on womans ordination

1481 NO 69%

673 Yes  31%

 

2015 Vote

1381 NO   59%

977  Yes   41%

5 Abstains

 

Do you see it. Slowly year by year Womans ordination is gaining acceptance. About 17 percent Gain in 20 years. Just less than 1% gain per year. At this rate in 15 years we will have a majority vote in the affirmity of womans ordination. It is only a matter of time. The young people in Africa coming out of our colleges there are in favor of womans ordination. They will be the upcoming leadership and voters in the GC elections in 15 to 20 years.  Womans ordination will happen. We just have to be patient. This issue is NOT DEAD.

 

 

 

 

[Johann]

But irt might go the other way too. Will a majority be saved? The headship idea is so ingraded in this sinful world. Only a true minister is a servant.

[debbym]

i just read this from the NAD following a vote to not hold a constituency meeting on the issue of WO.

http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2015/08/19/npuc-affirms-women-leaders-cancels-ordination-constituency-meeting

 

[Robert]

On 7/17/2015 at 0:04 AM, CyberGuy said:

This issue is NOT DEAD.

Ordination is a side issue.  Gay issues within the church - a side issue.  SDA are called to preach the third angel's message.  Have you folks forgot about presenting "the everlasting gospel"?  

 

[Rossw]

46 minutes ago, Robert said:

Ordination is a side issue.  Gay issues within the church - a side issue.  SDA are called to preach the third angel's message.  Have you folks forgot about presenting "the everlasting gospel"?  

 

It is a side issue to the third angels message but issues can move the church away from God through disobedience creating problems for the church's ability to preach. Problems in a church can cause them to get spit out. How effective is a disobedient church?

[Tom Wetmore]

It's not about obedience or disobedience.  

[LifeHiscost]

7 minutes ago, Tom Wetmore said:

It's not about obedience or disobedience.  

Evidently that's what Eve was convinced of also!

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Rossw]

It's really eye opening what some believe here. Obedience isn't a sign of faith?

[Tom Wetmore]

I was responding to your implied idea that the issue that is the topic here was a matter of obedience.  The implication from so many in the camp of those opposed to women in ministry and/or WO is that those in support of WO and women in ministry are doing so in defiance, rebellion and disobedience of God. To many of that POV supporting WO and women in pastoral ministry and leadership is a moral issue and that we are sinning against God by doing so. (There may well be some in the supporting camp that see it as a moral issue too, but only a very small percentage.)

It really isn't.  I believe that when you combine that with the idea that this will cause the church to split, it simply reinforces that wrong perspective. But more significantly, it tells me that it won't be the those that support WO and/or women in pastoral ministry and leadership that will split the Church, but rather those that have made it  into a moral sin issue.  I understand why they would conclude that if they see this as a sin issue, a matter of obedience to God.  They would feel compelled to leave if the whole Church supported it since they simply could not be a part of such sinfulness. But that wrong perspective is what will split the Church. (As I have said numerous times, if those in support were determined to split with the Church after 40 years of wandering in the wilderness of this issue they would have done so already. They have stuck with the Church despite the opposition.) Women in pastoral ministry and leadership is here to stay, whether or not the whole church decides to recognize it by ordination.  And it will increase and spread just as it has done already. More areas of the Church are supporting women in pastoral ministry and leadership than ever. Each time the matter has come up for a vote the percentage in support increases.  

[Rossw]

On 7/6/2016 at 5:58 AM, Tom Wetmore said:

I was responding to your implied idea that the issue that is the topic here was a matter of obedience.  The implication from so many in the camp of those opposed to women in ministry and/or WO is that those in support of WO and women in ministry are doing so in defiance, rebellion and disobedience of God. To many of that POV supporting WO and women in pastoral ministry and leadership is a moral issue and that we are sinning against God by doing so. (There may well be some in the supporting camp that see it as a moral issue too, but only a very small percentage.)

I do see this as a moral issue but only indirectly at the moment. Anytime disobedience of God happens in any way it becomes a moral issue but I do not believe everyone for WO is knowingly disobeying God at this moment. The greater implication is that when both parties are very entrenched a split will occur. Not sure if the pro-WO are so dogmatic but the anti-WO see the issue as a denial of God's word.

On 7/6/2016 at 5:58 AM, Tom Wetmore said:

It really isn't.  

It really is if God's word explicitly says not to ordain female pastors/elders/deacons.

On 7/6/2016 at 5:58 AM, Tom Wetmore said:

  I believe that when you combine that with the idea that this will cause the church to split, it simply reinforces that wrong perspective. But more significantly, it tells me that it won't be the those that support WO and/or women in pastoral ministry and leadership that will split the Church, but rather those that have made it  into a moral sin issue.  

We know the church will split by reading Revelations 3. John talks of the Laodicean Church getting spit out and then the focus goes to the individuals.

Let me ask you, Tom, do you think the Catholic Church saw the selling of indulgences as morally wrong? The issue was big enough for Luther to speak out against by the reading of Scripture which ultimately led to the Protestant Reformation. The Reformation started off very small with a handful of individuals.

If the Church denomination must split over WO it won't bother me one bit. It may bother the adminstration to lose so much tithe though. That'd be the least of my concerns because spreading the gospel and running ministries can and do occur at the local church level.

[Tom Wetmore]

8 minutes ago, Rossw said:

It really is if God's word explicitly says not to ordain female pastors/elders/deacons.

Which it most definitely does not.

[Tom Wetmore]

10 minutes ago, Rossw said:

If the Church denomination must split over WO it won't bother me one bit.

That is really sad.  

[Rossw]

5 minutes ago, Tom Wetmore said:

That is really sad.  

There is a greater truth than any of us which must prevail. I don't want the church to split but if it does it will be for the greater truth. We already know the church has its shortcomings. We must not think the other denominations are Laodicea but figure out what to do when we realize we are Laodicea.

[Green Cochoa]

1 hour ago, Tom Wetmore said:

That is really sad.  

It is sad that the church will fractionate, but we know from prophecy that it indeed will.  The sadder part is that the vast majority of Adventists will not be saved, and sadder still that most in that group will have become so self-deceived regarding their true condition that they will be unaware of it until it is too late.

     In concluding this narrative, I would say that we are living in a most solemn time. In the last vision given me, I was shown the startling fact that but a small portion of those who now profess the truth will be sanctified by it and be saved. Many will get above the simplicity of the work. They will conform to the world, cherish idols, and become spiritually dead. The humble, self-sacrificing followers of Jesus will pass on to perfection, leaving behind the indifferent and lovers of the world.  {1T 608.3}  
     I was pointed back to ancient Israel. But two of the adults of the vast army that left Egypt entered the land of Canaan. Their dead bodies were strewn in the wilderness because of their transgressions. Modern Israel are in greater danger of forgetting God and being led into idolatry than were His ancient people. Many idols are worshiped, even by professed Sabbathkeepers. God especially charged His ancient people to guard against idolatry, for if they should be led away from serving the living God, His curse would rest upon them, while if they would love Him with all their heart, with all their soul, and with all their might, He would abundantly bless them in basket and in store, and would remove sickness from the midst of them.  {1T 609.1}  
     A blessing or a curse is now before the people of God--a blessing if they come out from the world and are separate, and walk in the path of humble obedience; and a curse if they unite with the idolatrous, who trample upon the high claims of heaven. The sins and iniquities of rebellious Israel are recorded and the picture presented before us as a warning that if we imitate their example of transgression and depart from God we shall fall as surely as did they. "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."   {1T 609.2}  

As Mrs. White aptly pointed out, Sabbathkeepers would "conform to the world . . . and become spiritually dead."  The world is on a steady march toward repeating the sin of Eve in the garden, following the elusive error of "empowerment" of women.  The Serpent flattered Eve, and modern Eves have been flattered in much the same way--flattered to think they should be something they are not.  It is sad to see that the Adventist church has joined the world's army, marching in lockstep with the modern women's movement to put women in the roles God reserved for men.

Will we come out of the world and be separate?  Or will we follow the evil example set by Korah, Dathan, and Abiram in attempting to put those whom God has not ordained into the leadership positions of our church?

[Robert]

30 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

 The Serpent flattered Eve, and modern Eves have been flattered in much the same way--flattered to think they should be something they are not.  It is sad to see that the Adventist church has joined the world's army, marching in lockstep with the modern women's movement to put women in the roles God reserved for men.

Quote

 

In the creation God had made her (Eve) the equal of Adam. Had they remained obedient to God—in harmony with His great law of love (agape)—they would ever have been in harmony with each other; but sin had brought discord, and now their union could be maintained and harmony preserved only by submission on the part of the one or the other. Eve had been the first in transgression; and she had fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction. It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband....

Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing....

When God made man, He made him ruler over the earth and all living creatures. So long as Adam remained loyal to Heaven, all nature was in subjection to him. But when he rebelled against the divine law, the inferior creatures were in rebellion against his rule. Thus the Lord, in His great mercy, would show men the sacredness of His law, and lead them, by their own experience, to see the danger of setting it aside, even in the slightest degree.

And the life of toil and care which was henceforth to be man's lot was appointed in love. It was a discipline rendered needful by his sin, to place a check upon the indulgence of appetite and passion, to develop habits of self-control. It was a part of God's great plan for man's recovery from the ruin and degradation of sin. [Patriarchs and Prophets, 58-60]

 

I believe EGW is dealing with marriage; not ordination.

Again, I do not have a dog in the race....What's important to me is the presentation of the gospel.  

My two cents

[LifeHiscost]

On 7/5/2016 at 9:44 PM, Rossw said:

 Obedience isn't a sign of faith?

I'm assuming that's a rhetorical question.

14If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. 15If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever—…John 15

God is love!~Jesus saves! 

[Green Cochoa]

8 hours ago, Robert said:

I believe EGW is dealing with marriage; not ordination.

Again, I do not have a dog in the race....What's important to me is the presentation of the gospel.  

My two cents

Does it still look like marriage here?

Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing. In their desire for a higher sphere, many have sacrificed true womanly dignity and nobility of character, and have left undone the very work that Heaven appointed them.  {PP 59.1}  

If that is addressing marriage, why should Eve have desired to be above her husband when she was already his equal?  And yet, is that not what women desire today?  I could name many famous examples, but the point is simply that Eve was proud of herself, and thought herself more capable than she really was.  She thought she was wise enough to make decisions without Adam's help.  She failed.  Following her role in bringing the entire human race into sin, God established Adam's authority over her.  In a perfect world, they were to have been equals.  In an imperfect world, Adam's judgment was superior.  

Women have a work that is more important than that of the king on his throne.  It is NOT the work of the king on his throne.

Though the results of her work are not apparent, angels of God are watching the careworn mother, noting the burdens she carries from day to day. Her name may never appear upon the records of history, or receive the honor and applause of the world, as may that of the husband and father; but it is immortalized in the book of God. She is doing what she can, and her position in God's sight is more exalted than that of a king upon his throne; for she is dealing with character, she is fashioning minds.  The mothers of the present day are making the society of the future. How important that their children be so brought up that they shall be able to resist the temptations they will meet on every side in later life!  {CTBH 68.4} 

 

[Green Cochoa]

11 hours ago, Rossw said:

It really is if God's word explicitly says not to ordain female pastors/elders/deacons.

11 hours ago, Tom Wetmore said:

Which it most definitely does not.

God doesn't seek to forbid everything.  It's too impractical, for one thing.  There may be a thousand ways to disobey a single command.  God's word gives us commands to follow far more often than prohibitions.  So when God says to do something, He doesn't mean that we should find some other way and do differently from what He said to do.

God's Word does not explicitly forbid ordaining women, as far as I am aware, just like it does not explicitly forbid smoking marijuana, or wasting time in front of the TV, or speeding in the car.  God, instead of handing out a list of "don'ts" gives us His commands in the form of "dos."  As if to address this very thing in light of the apostasies we are seeing in the church today, Ellen White wrote the following:

There is a decided testimony to be borne by all our ministers in all our churches. God has permitted apostasies to take place in order to show how little dependence can be placed in man. We are always to look to God; His word is not Yea and Nay, but Yea and Amen.--Undated Manuscript 148.  {2SM 395.4}  

 

[Robert]

9 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Does it still look like marriage here?

It doesn't look like ordination.

[Green Cochoa]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

It doesn't look like ordination.

Perhaps not.  But women's ordination looks like it.

[Tom Wetmore]

2 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Perhaps not.  But women's ordination looks like it.

And that is part of the problem.  Twisting and confusing the two. And not being able to see the difference.  Confusing the role of women (and men for that matter) in the church with marriage sort of has a Roman Catholic ring about it. Catholic men and women seeking to dedicate their life to the service of the church becoming priests and nuns effectively become married to it.  Their vows of chastity and celibacy conflate marriage/sexual union with /commitment with oneness with and commitment to God.  

Distinguishing these topics is important.  Understanding when Jesus speaks of the church being the bride of Christ, etc., it is a metaphorical illustration and not literal reality. 

In a real practical sense that confusion (especially from the headship heresy) has lead to effectively trying to turn the role of women in the church and their relationship to all men in the church to be more of a spousal relationship. 

[Green Cochoa]

2 minutes ago, Tom Wetmore said:

And that is part of the problem.  Twisting and confusing the two. And not being able to see the difference.  Confusing the role of women (and men for that matter) in the church with marriage sort of has a Roman Catholic ring about it. Catholic men and women seeking to dedicate their life to the service of the church becoming priests and nuns effectively become married to it.  Their vows of chastity and celibacy conflate marriage/sexual union with /commitment with oneness with and commitment to God.  

Distinguishing these topics is important.  Understanding when Jesus speaks of the church being the bride of Christ, etc., it is a metaphorical illustration and not literal reality. 

In a real practical sense that confusion (especially from the headship heresy) has lead to effectively trying to turn the role of women in the church and their relationship to all men in the church to be more of a spousal relationship. 

Where is your "thus saith the LORD" to support your allegation that headship is heresy?  Do Adventists base their views on Scriptures these days?  Or do they just like comparing to the Catholics?  Here's a text of scripture to prove your charges false:

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3)

If that Biblical text is not "biblical" and it is not supporting "headship," I don't know what is.

[Tom Wetmore]

13 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

God doesn't seek to forbid everything.  It's too impractical, for one thing.  There may be a thousand ways to disobey a single command.  God's word gives us commands to follow far more often than prohibitions.  So when God says to do something, He doesn't mean that we should find some other way and do differently from what He said to do.

God's Word does not explicitly forbid ordaining women, as far as I am aware, just like it does not explicitly forbid smoking marijuana, or wasting time in front of the TV, or speeding in the car.  God, instead of handing out a list of "don'ts" gives us His commands in the form of "dos."  As if to address this very thing in light of the apostasies we are seeing in the church today, Ellen White wrote the following:

There is a decided testimony to be borne by all our ministers in all our churches. God has permitted apostasies to take place in order to show how little dependence can be placed in man. We are always to look to God; His word is not Yea and Nay, but Yea and Amen.--Undated Manuscript 148.  {2SM 395.4}  

 

Now you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth...  You and Ross have been insisting on a "Thus saith the Lord" and ignoring or rejecting anything you deem to be extra-Biblical, even clear and undisputed contextual information.  Now when the absence of that explicit directive from God on the key disputed issue of ordination, it no longer matters.  

Nice try...  

[Tom Wetmore]

On July 7, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Rossw said:

If the Church denomination must split over WO it won't bother me one bit.

@Green Cochoa and @Rossw Both of you seem to miss the point on this. (As seems so often the case...) When I said it was sad I was primarily reacting to  the "it won't bother me one bit" part.  The church splitting over this or any issue is and should be a matter of very serious concern.  But to declare that you really don't care is just plain disturbing. I think it reflects an indifference toward those with who you disagree and an apparent attitude of "we are better off if those kind of people with those ideas just leave us."  But I have news for you.  The split is more likely to be that those who are so adamantly opposed will leave because women in ministry in the Adventist Church is here to stay and support for it is growing.  

That idea is shared by many opposers of women in ministry  within the Adventist Church conflating this with some end of time scenario of the "shaking" and/or last generation theology that purging the church of all sin is necessary so that that those that remain will be the purified and righteous remnant ones fit for the kingdom that God is waiting for.  Thatt really becomes hard to reconcile for those so adamant that WO and women in ministry and leadership is a moral issue as long as support for it within the Church continues to grow.