The Holy Spirit: He, She or It?

[aldona]

I've just spent some time watching Adventist cable TV...doesn't matter which speaker(s), it's not relevant...and I was surprised by how often the Third Person of the Godhead was referred to as "it". To me it's like hearing fingernails on a blackboard, or hearing God's name used in vain - I was always taught that the Holy Spirit is a Person just as the Father and the Son are Persons.

Is this a phenomenon peculiar to Adventists? I do not seem to recall this terminology in use in other Christian publications and broadcasts.

Why do they do it? Is it because it would simply be too unpalatable to admit that the Hebrew name for the Holy Spirit (Ruach Ha-Qodesh) is feminine in grammar, and to be faithful to the original Hebrew text we would have to say "She"?

What are your thoughts on this?

aldona

[Gerr]

"However, when HE, the Spirit of truth, has come, HE will guide you into all tlruth; for HE will not speak on HIS own authority, but whatever HE hears HE will speak; and HE will tell you things to come. HE will glorify Me, for HE will take of what is Mine and declare it to you." Jn 16:13,14 NKJ

Gerry

[aldona]

The pronouns in our English translation of the Bible do not prove anything, since the English language does not have the same kind of male/female/neuter distinctions for nouns that many other languages do. (said as a speaker of Polish <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif" alt="" />).

I have read more than one article/publication/website in which those who have devoted much more time to this subject than I can afford to, have stated that in the Greek text the Holy Spirit is referred to by either feminine or neuter terms, and in the original Hebrew by exclusively feminine terminology. Only in the English translation are masculine terms like "he", "his" and "him" used.

Don't get me wrong. I believe that God (in all three Persons) is divine, and as such transcends our human notions of "male" or "female". But I sometimes wonder whether we humans have tried to cast God as so exclusively male that we have lost sight of this.

aldona

[Morning Glory]

Hi Aldona,

I had not heard or read that the original language referred to the Holy Spirit in the Feminine. What an interesting and enlightening concept!! Thanks so much for sharing this piece of information. I will now have to contemplate that thought....

[Derrell M]

Judaism teaches that God is an incorporeal being without gender.

[Yong T Tay]

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. He is not a different individual person apart from God. He is an integral part of the person of God the Father himself. The Holy Spirit is the omnipresent attribution of the person of God.

Jesus on the other hand, is a distinct individual person apart from God. He is not God the Son. He is the only begotten Son of God. There is only one true God. John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

The doctrine of Trinity is not found in the Bible, it came from the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

[NOTE: For those reading this post, who are not aquainted with Seventh-day Adventist belief, certain statements made in the post are clearly that of the one who posted them, and they are NOT that of the Seventh-day Adventist chruch--GM.]

[Ron Lambert]

The Hebrew word for spirit, ru'ach, is feminine. It is also the word for wind, air, or breath. So just because Hebrew treats wind, air or breath as being feminine, does not necessarily mean the Holy Spirit of God is feminine.

In Biblical Greek, the word for spirit, pneuma, is neuter. It has a neuter ending. But again, the same word means wind. Just because Greek treats wind as neuter, does not mean spirit is actually neuter.

In Latin, Spiritus has a masculine ending.

These uses of gender do not mean very much. Consider that in modern French, books are masculine, and take the "le" article (le livre); while window panes are feminine, and take the feminine article, "la" (la finatre.) We can leave it for conjecture how intrensically masculine books may be, and how intrensically feminine window panes may be. Perhaps centuries ago, the French thought that books are for men, and window panes are to be washed by women. But obviously just because a given noun traditionally takes a masculine, feminine, or neuter ending and/or article, does not prove a thing.

Most languages assign gender to things pretty much arbitrarily. They are only definitive of actual gender when applied to proper names of people. This, incendentally, is why Greek had to change the Hebrew name, Yeshua, to Yesus (or Iesus), since the alpha sound at the end would have indicated feminine or neuter gender in Greek.

[Gerr]

Quote:

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The doctrine of Trinity is not found in the Bible, it came from the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.

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[:"blue"]What version of the Bible do you have?

Is Jesus God? [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

If the Spirit is a person, then the Spirit CANNOT be an IT.

Gerry

[Gregory Matthews]

Note the distinction between a person, and a personal being.

[Yong T Tay]

"Is Jesus God?"

Jesus is not God though He is Divine. He is the Son of God. Jesus and God are two distinct persons. Jesus' father is God and His mother is Mary. Jesus is both divine and human. That enable Him to go in between God and man. He reconciles human to God.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word and God were not two different persons, they were one and the same person. The Word is the Word of God.

John 1:3 "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." Him here was referring to the Word. The Word is the medium through which all things came to being. That medium was what David said in the Psalm 33:6 "By the word of the Lord(God) the heavens were made." "For He(God) spoke, and it was done. He commanded, and it stood fast." Psalm 33:9.

In Genesis Chapter 1, we see the creation of this world in progress. The phrase "Then God said, 'Let ......' " keep on repeating whenever God created somethings. Whenever God said, His Word came out of His mouth to produce the creations. The Word of God is the medium through which all things were created. The Word means the Word of God.

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." What happen was that, God fused His Word with Mary's ovum to form His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. Jesus carried God's gene and Mary's(human) gene. Jesus is both a divine and human person, while God the Father is a totally divine person. To say Jesus is God, No. To say Jesus is the Son of God, Yes. To say Jesus is the Son of Adam(human), Yes.

[NOTE: For those reading this post, who are not aquainted with Seventh-day Adventist belief, certain statements made in the post are clearly that of the one who posted them, and they are NOT that of the Seventh-day Adventist chruch--GM.]

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Aldona,

from what I have studied here are my thoughts:

The Holy Spirit is neither a He or a She but a Spirit. Gerry's quote states that the Holy Spirit is a He but I'm sure that is a way to address the Spirit in a way that makes sense to us.

I think it would be very difficult for anyone to say I know what the Spirit is. We may have some ideas but if we knew what He was then God would not be so difficult to understand. God is mysterious to us in many ways as we don't have the capacity to know many things. How much of our brain are we said to be able to use? 10%???

We know He was in Jesus (God the Son) without measure and He is given to us, the Father's children. He gives eternal life and temporal life. He is our interpreter in prayer. He teaches us. (I am only using "He" because I'm used to reading that in the KJV) He was involved in the creation of the universe and will be involved in the recreation of this world.

The Holy Spirit can come to us and give us a vision and we would not know where we are whether it was a dream or real. How can we difine a being like that? Divine, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent: Love at the purest and highest expression of power? Another gender that we haven't encountered? I just don't know.

This is something that we have not been revealed and I don't think we can definitively know on this side of heaven.

just thinking,

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi yongttay,

I have some verses and thoughts that may help you see Jesus for who He is.

Phil 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus is one with the Father and the Spirit. They have always existed from eternity. (which is something we can't grasp) The plan of salvation was made and the Father who was heard at Jesus baptism, the Spirit, who came down in a dove like form and the Son agreed that Jesus would come and take a human body to be a sacrifice for humanity. Hebrews 10: 7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

When Jesus took a body He gave up part of His divinity forever. 1 Cor: 15 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. These things teach us Who Jesus was and what He has done.

Let's look at Him in the light of the cross. Let's say Jesus is not the creator of all that is in existance, let's say that He did not have all power and that He was not equal with the Father in every respect.

Then who was on the cross and how does that reveal to us how much God loves us? Some people believe that Jesus was not equal with God and they behave in a strange manner. They are not capable of showing love, are rigid and can be condemning. Love begets love and a Father sitting on a throne letting some unequal do His work will never be seen as love and therefore will never make a change in His children.

If you believe that Jesus Christ is not God and equal with the Father and the Spirit, then when judgment comes everyone one of the lost could say to God, "How can you destroy me, you don't have a clue what it's like to live in this world and in this body! And if God is a just God He would have to say," You're right"

But now we see that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself and this leaves no excuse for anyone to be lost. If any is lost it will be because of their own refusal of the salvation provided for them.

But beyond that is the revelation of the character of love that is needed to save us from this hell of sin and death. There is only one thing strong enough to deliever us from sin in all it's phases and forms. That is the pure love of God in Christ (God the Son). 1 john 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. (We can be changed from selfish to selfless by this ultimate love which we know as Agape)

No human sacrifice could do this. It's has to be of God in order to show His great love and mercy and also so that every mouth will be stopped and that every knee will bow to Jesus Christ, God the Son.

In John chapter 1 when it say the word, that word is Jesus Christ.

If you choose to believe this love and live in it you will experience a deeper love from God because you will be opening yourself to God in a way that you have not before. If you choose not to believe in this love of God then you will limit God in your life. My appeal to you is to look into this and see what happens in your soul. You will be much blessed, I say this in boldness from the word and promises of God the Son, Jesus.

Norman

[Yong T Tay]

Norman,

Where in the Bible could you find that say Jesus is "God the Son" I could find a lot of verses that say Jesus is the "Son of God" or the "Son of man(human)". There is a big difference in meaning between "God the Son" and "Son of God".

If a white man married a black woman and give birth to a son. Would you say that the son is a white man? I won't say he is a white man nor a black man, but I would say he is the son of a white man or the son of a black woman.

Was Mary a biological mother or a surrogate mother of Jesus? The answer to this question will determine whether Jesus is the "Son of God" or "God the Son"

Thank you

[NOTE: For those reading this post, who are not aquainted with Seventh-day Adventist belief, certain statements made in the post are clearly that of the one who posted them, and they are NOT that of the Seventh-day Adventist chruch--GM.]

[NOTE: This post has beenedited by the author, and my comment, above, removed. In it present form, the comments are less direct, and more implied. But, those implications reflect the view of the author, and not that of the SDA Church. In addition, they are not the view of the majority of Christians. Most consider them to be far from Christian/Biblical truth--GM.]

[Gerr]

Quote:

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yongttay said:

"Is Jesus God?"

Jesus is not God though He is Divine. He is the Son of God. Jesus and God are two distinct persons. Jesus' father is God and His mother is Mary. Jesus is both divine and human. That enable Him to go in between God and man. He reconciles human to God.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word and God were not two different persons, they were one and the same person. The Word is the Word of God.

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[:"blue"]Are you saying this verse is only talking about one person? What does, "the Word was WITH God" mean to you? And when John says, "the Word was God", what does this mean to you? [/]

Quote:

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John 1:3 "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." Him here was referring to the Word. The Word is the medium through which all things came to being. That medium was what David said in the Psalm 33:6 "By the word of the Lord(God) the heavens were made." "For He(God) spoke, and it was done. He commanded, and it stood fast." Psalm 33:9.

In Genesis Chapter 1, we see the creation of this world in progress. The phrase "Then God said, 'Let ......' " keep on repeating whenever God created somethings. Whenever God said, His Word came out of His mouth to produce the creations. The Word of God is the medium through which all things were created. The Word means the Word of God.

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[:"blue"]Does "the Word of God" just mean the words spoken by God during His creation activity? [/]

Quote:

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John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." What happen was that, God fused His Word with Mary's ovum to form His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. Jesus carried God's gene and Mary's(human) gene. Jesus is both a divine and human person, while God the Father is a totally divine person. To say Jesus is God, No. To say Jesus is the Son of God, Yes. To say Jesus is the Son of Adam(human), Yes.

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[:"blue"]Let's follow your line of reasoning. If John 1:1, John is speaking of only one person, i.e. God Himself was the Word John was speaking of, then when the Word become incarnate, it is God the Father Himself who has become incarnate? And therefore Jesus was the Father incarnate?

I rather doubt that God used Mary's ovum for the incarnation of the Word. The conceptus that was in Mary's womb was called, "that Holy One" (Lk 1:35 NKJ). Mary's ovum, just like her was tainted with sin and, was "by nature children of wrath, just as the others" (Eph 2:3 NKJ). If Jesus was the product of Mary's ovum, He would have needed a mediator Himself. [/]

Gerry

[Gerr]

yongttay,

I realize you were addressing Norman, but permit me to reply. You won't find a Biblical phrase "God the Son", if that's what you are looking for. But look at Phil 2:5 again. Referring to Jesus, Paul says that Jesus had the [:"blue"]"form [Gk morphe nature, visual form] of God". "Being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped" NIV, "although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped" NASB, "Christ was like God Himself in everything. But He did not think that being equal with God was something to be used for His own benefit." NCV.

So according to Paul, Jesus was by nature God, and was/is equal with God. If this being the case, then verse 7 become extremely significant when Paul says Jesus "made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men." NKJ. "But made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." NIV. "But emptied [Gk kenoo to empty, make empty, to make void, deprive of force, useless, of no effect- Strong's Lexicon] himself, taking the form of a slave," RSV.

If Jesus had not been God before the incarnation, He would not have had to empty Himself of much. Friend, when you see Jesus as God emptying Himself of every divine prerogative, making Himself "nothing", you begin to see what it cost heaven to save you and me. [/]

Gerry

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gerry,

thanks for jumping in. You've explained it more thoroughly than I could have.

Another thought came to my mind; I don't know how you feel about what I'm going to type but here it goes.

John 4: 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Considering that the Father is a Spirit and the Holy Spirit has no permanent bodily form, that would leave only Jesus the Son to be the pattern that was used to form Adam.

26 And God said; Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Adam was also patterned after the Son in spirit because He was God.

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Romans 1: 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Just thinking,

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Yongttay,

Gerry has anwered your question about Jesus being God, or as I referred to Him, God the Son.

I am the product of a mixed marriage (black father and white mother) and I do not consider myself a different creation or the son of a black man or white woman. I consider myslef 100% of each. I have to, otherwise I would be descriminating againt the one race which I considered myself less of.

Likewise, when God became man in Christ, He was and is 100% man and 100% God, He has to be otherwise He's be descriminating against one or the other. He could not represent man if He were not 100$ man. He could not represent God if He were not 100% God.

Think through these things, it's deep and worhthy of meditation and prayer.

I have to run so I may get back to you later today or tomorrow.

Blessings,

Norman

[Yong T Tay]

Gerry,

yongttay posting:

Jesus is not God though He is Divine. He is the Son of God. Jesus and God are two distinct persons. Jesus' father is God and His mother is Mary. Jesus is both divine and human. That enable Him to go in between God and man. He reconciles human to God.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." The Word and God were not two different persons, they were one and the same person. The Word is the Word of God.

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Gerry question:

Are you saying this verse is only talking about one person? What does, "the Word was WITH God" mean to you? And when John says, "the Word was God", what does this mean to you?

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yongttay reply:

Yes, John 1:1 is talking about one and only one person. The Word is not a different individual person apart from God. It is an integral part of the person of God the Father himself. The Word is the omnipotent attribution of the person of God. All things were possible only through the Word(God's Word). The Word is God's omnipotent power.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. It is not a different individual person apart from God. It is an integral part of the person of God the Father himself. The Holy Spirit is the omnipresent attribution of the person of God. The Holy Spirit is God's forces that can be present everywhere. Examples of spirit are: breath, a life force; wind, a blowing force; gravity, a binding force, nationalism, a political force and so on.

The Mind of God is the omniscient attribution of the person of God. It is the centre of infinite knowledge, intelligence and wisdom. It directs and governs the actions of the Word and the Holy Spirit. The Word, the Holy Spirit and the Mind of God together make up the omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient person of one God.

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yongttay posting:

John 1:3 "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." Him here was referring to the Word. The Word is the medium through which all things came to being. That medium was what David said in the Psalm 33:6 "By the word of the Lord(God) the heavens were made." "For He(God) spoke, and it was done. He commanded, and it stood fast." Psalm 33:9.

In Genesis Chapter 1, we see the creation of this world in progress. The phrase "Then God said, 'Let ......' " keep on repeating whenever God created somethings. Whenever God said, His Word came out of His mouth to produce the creations. The Word of God is the medium through which all things were created. The Word means the Word of God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gerry question:

Does "the Word of God" just mean the words spoken by God during His creation activity?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yongttay reply:

The Word of God means not only the words spoken by God during His creation activity but also His will, His commands, His expressions.

==============================================================================

yongttay posting:

John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." What happen was that, God fused His Word with Mary's ovum to form His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. Jesus carried God's gene and Mary's(human) gene. Jesus is both a divine and human person, while God the Father is a totally divine person. To say Jesus is God, No. To say Jesus is the Son of God, Yes. To say Jesus is the Son of Adam(human), Yes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gerry question:

Let's follow your line of reasoning. If John 1:1, John is speaking of only one person, i.e. God Himself was the Word John was speaking of, then when the Word become incarnate, it is God the Father Himself who has become incarnate? And therefore Jesus was the Father incarnate?

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yongttay reply:

No, God the father was not incarnated. It was the Word that was incarnated. The Word was God, but God was not the Word. For instant, your hand is you, but you are not your hand.

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Gerry question:

I rather doubt that God used Mary's ovum for the incarnation of the Word. The conceptus that was in Mary's womb was called, "that Holy One" (Lk 1:35 NKJ). Mary's ovum, just like her was tainted with sin and, was "by nature children of wrath, just as the others" (Eph 2:3 NKJ). If Jesus was the product of Mary's ovum, He would have needed a mediator Himself.

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yongttay reply:

If God did not use Mary's ovum for the incarnation of the Word, then Mary was not the biological mother of Jesus. Jesus could not possibly be human and He could not represent us and save us.

Jesus, being a biological son of Mary, had a sinful human nature by birth. Like everyone of us, He needed to be saved from the sinful fallen human nature. Like us, Jesus inherited sin from Adam. Unlike us who sinned like Adam and acquired more sins, Jesus did not sin like Adam and acquired no sins.

By living a sinless life with the help of the Holy Spirit, Jesus had experienced and developed an unfallen sinless human nature for Himself and the human race. It is by this unfallen sinless human nature that saved Him and those who believed in Him.

Adam was created perfect. By disbelieving(disobeying) God, Adam changed human nature from sinless to sinful. Jesus was born through human imperfections. By believing(obeying) God, Jesus(the last Adam) reversed the human nature from sinful to sinless. By Adam's action, the human race was condemned to death. By Jesus' action, the human race was justified to live.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus being born to the sinful human race died as a sinner. Death claimed Him. But Jesus Himself did not sin. For the law to be just, death could only keep the inherited sinful human nature that was in Him but could not keep Him there on account of His sinless human nature which He had experienced and developed during His 33 1/2 years earthly ministry. This sinless human nature through Jesus Christ is the gift from God to justify believers for eternal life.

(NOTE: Certain statements made in this post are not necessary the belief of the established churches such as the Roman Catholic, Protestants, SDA, Jehovah's Witnesses or the Mormon. They are the views of some earnest bible students.)