Why is Easter on a Different Date Each Year?

[phkrause]

What is it with Resurrection Sunday? One year it’s in March, the next in April! Is it true the British parliament tried to force the issue? And was ignored?

Check out the statement in paragraph 5! Very interesting!

Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Articles...zcY6tvaIJFjg.99

[Samie]

What is it with Resurrection Sunday? One year it’s in March, the next in April! Is it true the British parliament tried to force the issue? And was ignored?

Check out the statement in paragraph 5! Very interesting!

Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Articles...zcY6tvaIJFjg.99

[Samie]

Here's the 2nd statement of paragraph 5:

Quote:

Christ’s resurrection happened the day after Passover.

Sorry, but as I compare it with Scriptures, this statement is questionable, as we shall soon see.

Let us first take a look at the possible full moon occurrence when the Lord ate Passover with His disciples the night He was arrested. That full moon was the first full moon AFTER the date of vernal equinox. The Lord was crucified in the reign of Pilate - 26 AD to 36 AD. Here are the different full moon occurrences AFTER date of vernal equinox in those years (Add 2 hours to get Jerusalem time):

Quote:

26 April 20 Noon Sat.

27 April 9 4 p.m. Wed.

28 March 29 3 a.m. Mon.

29 April 17 3 a.m. Sun.

30 April 6 8 p.m. Thu.

31 March 27 11 a.m. Tue.

32 April 14 9 a.m. Mon.

33 April 3 3 p.m. Fri.

34 March 23 3 p.m. Tue.

35 April 11 8 a.m. Mon.

36 March 30 2 p.m. Fri.

Considering that the apostle John recorded 3 Passovers after the baptism of Jesus which Luke said occurred in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius which started 14 AD, Jesus' baptism was 28 AD. The 3 Passovers recorded by John would have to be those in 29, 30 and 31 AD.

In 31 AD, full moon was Tuesday. If Christ ate Passover that night, then He was also arrested that same night, crucified Wednesday, and after 3 days and 3 nights as He Himself specified in Mt 12:40, He resurrected early Saturday morning. That He, in fact, resurrected Saturday, is corroborated in Mark 16:9 where it is specified that the Lord resurrected on "proi prote sabbatou" or early morning of the chief Sabbath. Between a ceremonial sabbath and the weekly sabbath in that paschal week, the chief sabbath is undoubtedly the weekly sabbath, Saturday.

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

SDA scholars believe in a Friday crucifixion, April 27, 31 AD.

It follows that Jesus ate Passover on Thursday evening, April 26. But full moon was on Wednesday, Apr 25 9:59PM, Jerusalem time. Will Jesus Who said He came to fulfill the law which obviously includes the law on when Passover is supposed to be eaten, eat Passover on a NON-FULL MOON night and thus violate the law He said He came to fulfill?

[Ron Amnsn]

Let us first take a look at the possible full moon occurrence when the Lord ate Passover with His disciples the night He was arrested. That full moon was the first full moon AFTER the date of vernal equinox.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Let us first take a look at the possible full moon occurrence when the Lord ate Passover with His disciples the night He was arrested. That full moon was the first full moon AFTER the date of vernal equinox.

Originally Posted By: Gerhard

New moon after equinox was “proclaimed” the first day of the First Month of the year (‘Abib’ or ‘Nisan’). Naturally the new moon could occur on any day of the week.

I've heard many people claim that Passover is determined by the vernal equinox (using either the new moon or the full moon after equinox). But I don't see anything in Scripture that ties Passover to the equinox in any way.

Does the Passover connection to equinox come from the Catholics? Or does it come from the writings of the Jewish sages (such as the Talmud)?

If we were to determine Passover only by the instructions contained in Scripture (which is the goal of the Karaite Jews), it would come near the middle of the lunar month when the barley crop will first be ready for Wave Sheaf day (during the week after Passover). And the first day of the month of Abib would be determined by the first sighting of the crescent moon in Israel soon after sundown (as it was at the time of Jesus), rather than being determined by modern astronomers using the calculated conjunction of the moon, which is erroneously called "new moon" today. (It actually marks the time of no moon rather than the time of new moon.)

There are significant differences between the way the Jews determined Passover in the time of Jesus and the way Samie has tried to reconstruct the dates for Passover using modern methods.

I'm in total agreement, besides if we actually go by the Bible, Passover is on the 15th of Nisan not when there is a full moon. I look at his link to full moons, etc., and other than a few times the 14th of Nisan and the Full moon, doesn't come at the same time. And one date was so far off, it wasn't even funny.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Let us first take a look at the possible full moon occurrence when the Lord ate Passover with His disciples the night He was arrested. That full moon was the first full moon AFTER the date of vernal equinox.

Originally Posted By: Gerhard

New moon after equinox was “proclaimed” the first day of the First Month of the year (‘Abib’ or ‘Nisan’). Naturally the new moon could occur on any day of the week.

I've heard many people claim that Passover is determined by the vernal equinox (using either the new moon or the full moon after equinox). But I don't see anything in Scripture that ties Passover to the equinox in any way.

Does the Passover connection to equinox come from the Catholics? Or does it come from the writings of the Jewish sages (such as the Talmud)?

[Samie]

...

I'm in total agreement, besides if we actually go by the Bible, Passover is on the 15th of Nisan not when there is a full moon.

[Ron Amnsn]

Did you know that in the first month of the Hebrew calendar, the full moon ALWAYS occurs after the vernal equinox? And this full moon, in a NON-FAULTY Hebrew lunisolar calendar, ALWAYS falls in the nighttime after sunset of Nisan 14.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Did you know that in the first month of the Hebrew calendar, the full moon ALWAYS occurs after the vernal equinox? And this full moon, in a NON-FAULTY Hebrew lunisolar calendar, ALWAYS falls in the nighttime after sunset of Nisan 14.

Samie, I am aware that after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD the Jews developed calculated calendars for use in the diaspora without an active Sanhedrin. What is the source of your hypothetical non-faulty Hebrew calendar?

[Samie]

You cannot blame a person who does not know Physics if he is not aware that the acceleration of a freely falling body is 9.8 meters per second per second. In fact, he will consider the occurrence of the phrase "per second per second" as a redundancy.

Similarly, if one does not know that Scriptures specify Passover to be a full moon feast, you cannot blame him if he sneers at someone who correlates Passover with the full moon. Did not God Himself just overlook in the past the times of man's ignorance?

Quote:

Acts 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent

It is up to the person concerned if he opts to stay ignorant.

[Samie]

Passover is on the nighttime after sunset on the 14th; by then, the 15th has already began, sunset to sunset reckoning.

[Ron Amnsn]

So then, you are not aware that the first full moon in a NON-FAULTY Hebrew calendar ALWAYS occurs AFTER the vernal equinox. My source? Read post #694318, and post your objections, if any.

I read post #694318 again. There is no source mentioned for the assertions you made, so apparently you have invented your own calendar and declared it "non-faulty" yourself. If you were God, that would certainly give your calendar credibility. But since that is not the case, citing yourself as a source doesn't validate your imaginary calendar.

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

No. Even if it existed, such a document probably wouldn't be of much use for your purposes because it wouldn't be referenced to other known calendars. It might possibly list how many days were in the preceding month, and the names of the witnesses who saw the moon. The method of determining the new moon that was used before the destruction of the Temple is described in the writings of the Jewish sages.

If there's no such document, then sorry, but it looks like what you have are mere assumptions. And truth can NOT be based on assumptions.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

You cannot blame a person who does not know Physics if he is not aware that the acceleration of a freely falling body is 9.8 meters per second per second.

A half truth that is mostly true for an object at the surface of the Earth.

It may not true for objects outside of our solar system, or for objects on other planets.

I may be true in Newtonian physics. It may not be true in General Relativity considerations.

It is not true for an object at the top of Mt. Everest, even if that difference is small.

NOTE: I could list more. But, this should be a start.

[Kevin H]

Why did Jesus eat Passover a day ahead of the Jews?

But Jesus did not eat the Passover a day a head of the Jews. According to the synoptic gospels Jesus was at a feast the day before the Passover where the woman washed his feet with the costly ointment. According to John that feast was 5 days before the Passover. Thus we have a 4 day difference between when Jesus ate the Passover and when the Temple celebrated the Passover, not a one day difference.

This correlates to the fact that different Jewish sub groups could not agree and the night that Jesus ate the Passover would agree with the Essene Passover. They ate in a part of the city where there were Essene neighborhoods. they followed a man carrying water. The most common carrier of water was women. Then came donkeys, it was very rare to see a man carry water unless he was an Essene. Non Essene Rabbis would sometimes rent an upper room in the Essene monasteries and have a special celebration, celebrating the Holyday with special teachings for his disciples on the Essene's celebration of the Holyday if they were not able for some reason or another to do it on the Temple's celebration and thus keep the Holyday twice. Once on the Essene's day in an Essene monastery with their disciples, and again 4 days later with his family or what ever reason why he was not having it with his disciples. all of these indicate that Jesus had the last supper on the Essene Passover with his disciples. Then 4 days later he died as the Passover lamb.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

So then, you are not aware that the first full moon in a NON-FAULTY Hebrew calendar ALWAYS occurs AFTER the vernal equinox. My source? Read post #694318, and post your objections, if any.

I read post #694318 again. There is no source mentioned for the assertions you made, so apparently you have invented your own calendar and declared it "non-faulty" yourself.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

... If there's no such document, then sorry, but it looks like what you have are mere assumptions. And truth can NOT be based on assumptions.

Samie, it is you who is trying to prove that Passover fell on specific days in specific years, not me.

[Samie]

Quote:

You cannot blame a person who does not know Physics if he is not aware that the acceleration of a freely falling body is 9.8 meters per second per second.

A half truth that is mostly true for an object at the surface of the Earth.

It may not true for objects outside of our solar system, or for objects on other planets.

I may be true in Newtonian physics. It may not be true in General Relativity considerations.

It is not true for an object at the top of Mt. Everest, even if that difference is small.

NOTE: I could list more. But, this should be a start.

Oh, the Professor. Yes. You are right, and I agree with your point. But I was not responding to your post. If it were your post I was responding to, it would have been a different picture.

Now, post your objection to my posts, and I will gladly respond the way you want.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Why did Jesus eat Passover a day ahead of the Jews?

But Jesus did not eat the Passover a day a head of the Jews.

...

He did, and He was arrested that same night, crucified the daytime that came, which was preparation day of Passover of the Jews.

Luke 22:

8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

9 And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare?

10 And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.

11 And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?

Mark 14:

16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover.

17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve.

18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.

Scriptures say He ate that Passover with His disciples.

[Kevin H]

Samie: Modern Christian Tradition has placed the Last Supper on Thursday night, then has the time of prayer in the garden, the arrest, different inquiries and trials before the Sanhedrin, the different trials before Pilate and being sent to Herod and the abuse by the Roman soldiers and have him on the cross by 9:00 Friday morning is a lot of activity in a very short period of time.

But early Christian tradition had the last supper Tuesday night with his arrest very late that evening, an inquiry, the required day in jail before the trials, Thursday all day and into the evening the different trials and on the cross 9:00 Friday morning.

Modern archaeology is agreeing with the early tradition as we have learned more about the Essenes, the Essene Passover, which would have been the Tuesday night while the Temple Passover would have been Saturday night. And how the Synoptic Gospels had Simon's feast just before Passover but John has it a number of days before Passover. The contradiction between the time of Simon's feast and Passover in the Synoptic and John are actually resolved by what we now know about the Essenes and their earlier Passover.

[Ron Amnsn]

Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn

I read post #694318 again. There is no source mentioned for the assertions you made, so apparently you have invented your own calendar and declared it "non-faulty" yourself.

What is more apparent is the non-interest in your part to know that the average lunar cycle is 29 days 12 hours and 44 minutes, and that the first full moon in the Hebrew year always fall after the time of the vernal equinox. You just could have easily proven it by yourself via cyberspace, brother. But why the non-interest in said fact? Afraid that fact will prove Samie's point is correct?

[phkrause]

Faulty according to what definition and by what standard? Who says that the full moon has to occur in the middle of a month? There are people who (erroneously) believe that Biblical months start at full moon. They quote the same Bible verses that you quote to supposedly prove their theory. But they don't present any real evidence, except that they don't want to define a month the same way the Jews defined a month.

Exactly Ron. It matters not if the Moon is "full" "blue" "new" "green" red, etc. Passover starts on Nisan 14, the lamb is eaten after sundown on the 14th, which would make the 15th Nisan the first day of Passover. Its to bad that Samie doesn't confirm with his local Jewish Rabbis to find out the real times and not just some theory that he holds as gospel!!!!!

[Gregory Matthews]

My response is to be considered a general one that is not made in response to any one person. It may also apply in part to another thread in this section. It will be simplistic and not comprehensive. There is more that may be said. This issue is actually more complex than has been acknowledged by some here.

I am surprised by the lack of reference to material that is available in the Internet on this subject. Much is helpful.

Here are some general comments of mine:

1) The foundational issue as to Easter dates back to the split between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Church. The basic answer lies in that history.

2) In the time of Christ, the Jewish people had a civil calendar and a calendar for religious festivals. One should not calculate a festival by the civil calendar.

3) Some calculated some festivals by a lunar calendar and others by a lunar-solar calendar.

4) In the time of Christ festival dates were calculated differently by two different sects of the Jews. Thus festival were sometimes celebrated on two different dates.

5) In the time of Christ, Lunar dates were observational. It is wrong to calculate back by astronomical calculations when such were not used in the time of Christ. A calculated date may differ from an observational date.

Folks, this is just a brief summation of some, not all, of the issues.

The issue is more complex than has been acknowledged here in this thread.

[Ron Amnsn]

But using full moon occurrences which we can easily trace forward or backward in time via existing technology, it is possible to determine the day of Passover 2 millennia ago, because Passover is a full moon feast.

Where does it say in Scripture that the Passover is a "full moon feast"? It doesn't.

You have only posted Psalm 81:3 where it says, "Blow the trumpet at the new moon, At the full moon, on our feast day." But that doesn't say that Passover is a full-moon feast. It simply says to blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, and on our feast day. It isn't necessarily saying that a new moon is equivalent to a full moon or that a full moon is equivalent to a feast day. The next verse says, "For it is a statute for Israel, An ordinance of the God of Jacob." There is a statute in Torah that says to blow trumpets at the new moon of the seventh month which is the Feast of Trumpets (Lev 23:24, Num 29:1) and a statute that the priests blow the trumpets at new moons and at the appointed feasts (Numbers 10:1-10). There is no statute in Torah about blowing trumpets at full moon. However, there is a statute about blowing the trumpet to convene an assembly (Num 10:8) Because Passover and Tabernacles both occur shortly after the astronomical full moon, it is quite possible that the trumpets were blown at full moon to call the people to assemble at Jerusalem to prepare for Passover and Tabernacles.

It is likely that the Hebrew word used for "full moon" in Psalms 81:3 probably does not refer to the moon only on the night closest to the astronomical new moon. It probably could be used to refer to the moon during a period of several days when the moon is brightest. When translating Psalm 81 into Greek for the Septuagint a couple centuries before Jesus lived, the Jewish scholars translated that Hebrew word as eusemo hemera meaning "clear day", so in the Greek Scriptures the verse doesn't refer to the full moon at all.

There is no evidence in Scripture that Passover is supposed to occur at the astronomical full moon. I have seen no evidence from historical documents that Passover occurred at the astronomical full moon.

Samie, if you want to reconstruct an ancient calendar in order to determine when God's feast of Passover occurred almost 2000 years ago, that could be a good goal if you did it accurately. But your method does not seem to be interested in what the ancient people actually did. Instead you are imposing what is convenient for you (using software that calculates full moons) to construct a calendar that was never used in Israel during the years of Jesus' life. You are using calendar methods that were not used in Israel at that time. So what you have ended up with is a fantasy calendar that gives you bogus dates for Passover. You are merely pretending that the Jews 2000 years ago used the same calendar methods that you want to use, because you don't like the methods that the Jews actually used to determine months and feasts.