Why is Easter on a Different Date Each Year?

[Samie]

The lunar cycle is on the average 29 days 12 hours and 44 minutes. This is the period from new moon to the next new moon. From new moon to full moon is half of this value and is equivalent to 14 days 18 hours and 22 minutes. But long, long before man came to know of this value, God had already made it relatively easy for the Israelites to celebrate Passover in its appointed season which is on a full moon, by specifying that Passover be eaten on the nighttime after sunset of the 14th. He Who created the moon SURELY knows that as per His design, the nighttime after sunset of the 14th in the lunisolar calendar of the Hebrews is always a full moon.

In Exodus 12 where the first Passover was instituted in Egypt, the nighttime after sunset of the 14th was a full moon. In that chapter, Moses was instructed that as early as the 10th of the month, the lamb for Passover had to be selected:

Quote:

KJV Exodus 12:1-3

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,

2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.

3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:

The 10th day of the month requirement tells us the Israelites should not wait until a Rabbi declares it is the full moon because the 10th of the month would have, by then, passed when they were supposed to have taken out the lamb for Passover.

When God decreed in the above verses that the Passover month shall be the first month of the year, He knew that the nighttime after sunset of the 14th was a full moon that month. He gave the Israelites an exact starting point for the reckoning of their months. Their very first month, their beginning of months, had a full moon on the nighttime after sunset of the 14th. Their subsequent monthly reckonings should be relatively easy by an alternating 29 and 30 days to a month.

[Samie]

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Psalm 81

"3 Blow the trumpet in the new moon / moon -'chodesh'- in the appointed time / festival of the new moon -'keseh'- on our solemn feast -‘chaq’- day -'yom'.

Samie:

Quote <<<the new moon, at the __full__ moon, on our solemn feast.>>>

Samie, which is your Bible? Because it does not seem to me the concept or the word or words, <<full moon>> EVEN EXISTS IN THE BIBLE?!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

When God decreed in the above verses that the Passover month shall be the first month of the year, He knew that the nighttime after sunset of the 14th was a full moon that month. He gave the Israelites an exact starting point for the reckoning of their months. Their very first month, their beginning of months, had a full moon on the nighttime after sunset of the 14th. Their subsequent monthly reckonings should be relatively easy by an alternating 29 and 30 days to a month.

The idea that they alternated months of 29 days and 30 days is an interesting idea. Not everyone would agree with that idea.

Quote:

The lunar cycle is on the average 29 days 12 hours and 44 minutes. This is the period from new moon to the next new moon. From new moon to full moon is half of this value and is equivalent to 14 days 18 hours and 22 minutes. But long, long before man came to know of this value, God had already made it relatively easy for the Israelites to celebrate Passover in its appointed season which is on a full moon, by specifying that Passover be eaten on the nighttime after sunset of the 14th. He Who created the moon SURELY knows that as per His design, the nighttime after sunset of the 14th in the lunisolar calendar of the Hebrews is always a full moon.

Now you reference the lunisolar calendar. Are you aware that the lunisolar calendar sometimes had 12 months and at other times it had 13 months. NOTE: The 13 month year had more days in it than did the 12 month year.

The above post sounds to me like you equate the lunar calendar with the lunisolar calendar. Perhaps I am wrong. If I am correct that is an interesting view of the calendars used in the time of Christ.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerhard: I am not going to suggest which is the best translation of the Hebrew word in question. That is not my issue here.

However, if you want to tell us how a Biblical Hebrew or Greek word should be translated you should never use either Strong of Young. Those tell us how the Biblical words have been translated into English at the time Young and Strong were written. They do were not intended to define them.

If you want to debate their meaning, you need to support you view by the use of a lexicon.

Your use of Young to support your view simply demonstrates that you do not have an understanding of the Biblical languages.

[Samie]

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‘KESEH’

Young’s Analytical Concordance: ‘time appointed’

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In the KJV, the phrase "time appointed" is used 12 times in the OT:

In Ps 81:3, "time appointed" is from "keceh".

In Dan 10:1, "time appointed" is from "tsabah".

"time appointed" is from "mow'ed" in the following 10 verses: Gen 18:14; Exod 23:15; Josh 8:14; 1 Sam 20:35; 2 Sam 24:15; Jer 46:17; Dan 8:19; 11:27, 29, 35;

Any comment, Bro Gerhard?

[Samie]

I do not hesitate to say WHY these modern quasi-translations use <<full moon>> for NO reason whatsoever in the Hebrew text. Their hoax surprises me not at all.

It is because they want to create something out of the Scriptures to give Easter a Christian face. So this full moon monster is only an icon or idol of the heavenly no-gods they worship next to their chief object of superstitious veneration, ‘The day of the lord Sun’, Sunday and Easter Sunday.

[Samie]

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Yes; one question:

I do not see 'full moon'; am I blind?

...

Maybe not. Only, you close your eyes when you are about to see "full moon". Can you see with your eyes closed, my brother?

[Samie]

KJV Proverbs 26:4-5

Quote:

4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit

I think I have done verse 5. It's now time for verse 4: I rest my case.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerhard, let us clarify the difference between a concordance and a lexicon.

You reference the Englishman's Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance. This was a book that was published in the mid 1800's. Dates given for its publication are typically 1866 & 1843. As a concordance it is simply a listing of the Hebrew (and Aramaic)words found in the O.T. and a listing of the verse in which each word is found. For that purpose it is an excellent work, as long as one keeps in mind that it is only accurate for the textual manuscripts that it surveyed and were available in the early to mid 1800's.

The Young and Strong concordances are of value in that they tell us how each of the Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic words have been translated into English.

I use concordances often as they are of value. Their value is in telling us what verses contain specific Biblical words and in the case of an English concordance how those Biblical words have been translated into English.

They are NOT of major value in telling us the meaning of the Biblical word. To determine the meaning of the Biblical word you need to use what is called a lexicon for the Biblical word. A dictionary is like a lexicon except that those that pertain to a Biblical language are called lexicons.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerhard, you tell us that you have looked at Benjamin Davidson's, Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon. You are clearly correct that this was a major scholarly work. It was of major importance in that it was an analytical lexicon, which is a category in itself.

However, I note that this work was published in 1848. It is clearly dated. The understanding of the Semitic languages has progressed much since 1848. It was a masterpiece in its time. It continues to have value today. However, there are other lexicons in print today who are much better.

If you want to understand the meaning to the Biblical languages you should not depend upon this outdated work. Base your understanding on lexicons that are much more up to date. Our knowledge of the Semitic languages today is far beyond what it was in 1848

[Gregory Matthews]

Samie: I am perplexed by your reference to the 1917 JPS publication,

Quote:

JPS HOLY SCRIPTURES 1917 (English). The Bible text designated JPS 1917 is from The Holy Scriptures (Old Testament), originally published by the Jewish Publication Society in 1917.

Electronic text Copyright © 1995-98 by Larry Nelson (Box 1681, Cathedral City, CA 92235). All rights reserved.

The Jewish Publication Society is non-Christian. Would they translate "keseh" into "full moon" and give "Easter a Christian face" as you claimed?

Quote:

The translation, which appeared in 1917, is heavily indebted to the Revised Version and American Standard Version.[2] It differs from them in many passages where Jewish and Christian interpretations differ, notably in Isaiah 7:14, where it has "young woman" as opposed to the word "virgin" which is used in most Christian Bibles.

The 1917 edition was deeply indebted to non-Jewish publications.

I wonder why you did not reference the 1985 (published over a period of several years) JPS publication. It should be noted that the 1985 edition is not related to the 1917 edition.

[Samie]

Thanks for the concern shown this layman, Pastor Matthews. It is much appreciated. Just wanted to give Bro. Gerhard what he wants: the older the better. Yet, no matter what, old or new, "kese" or "keseh", is "full moon" (Harris, et als, Theological Wordbook of the OT; Holladay, Hebrew & Aramaic Lexicon of the OT).

[Gregory Matthews]

Some reading this thread may wonder why I have commented extensively on the issue of the Jewish calendars and I have not commented on what would be considered the major issue. IOW, why deal with what may be a minor issue and leave the major one alone.

In science, it is thought that if the protocols are flawed, the conclusions should not be accepted even if they are correct. I will give a couple of examples.

Let us say that I want to study the relation between tobacco use and lung cancer in the United States. It is not going to be possible for me to do a study of the entire population of the U.S. So, I study a sample. If my study sample is not representative of the U.S. population of the U.S. my conclusions are potentially flawed and should not be accepted. If my protocols failed to rule out people who began with liver cancer which metastasized to the lungs, my conclusions are potentially flawed due to my failure to rule out that confounding factor. In both cases, my conclusions may be correct, but my study has been so flawed in its protocols that my conclusions cannot be accepted.

I will give one more example. Let us say that I want to determine the specific gravity of lead and I do not have available to me a table of the specific gravity of various metals. So I take my sample of lead and determine it’s mass. Then I compare that mass with an equal volume of water and I come to the conclusion that the specific gravity of my sample of lead is 11340. That happens to be a correct figure for the specific gravity of lead under standard conditions.

Let us say that when I did my measurements my water was ocean water at a temperature of 10 degrees C. That is not standard conditions. Let us also say that there is another confounding factor. My sample of lead was contaminated by some included uranium and my measurements were off due to the fact that I read the measuring device upside down and I read a 9 as a 6. So, while my conclusion was correct, it cannot be accepted due to the fact that my protocols were faulty.

In this thread, I have concentrated on the Jewish calendars due to the fact that the conclusions cannot be considered correct absent the establishment of a valid understanding of the calendars and how months and days may have been determined in the time of Christ.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerhard said:

Quote:

I HAVE, rested my case --- on the Word of God.

Tell me where (Give me a chapter and verse.) where the word of God tells us how a Jewish festival day relates to the calendar that we use today.

If you want to tell us when Passover, the 1st or 12th Jewish month you have to give us that date in terms of our calendar. In order to do that you have to have a knowledge of the calendars that goes beyond what the Bible (I assume that your reference to the Word of God is to the Bible.) tells us.

The bottom line is: You do not go solely by the Word of God. You demonstrate your lack of knowledge of the various calendars used in the time of Christ and today.

Does that mean that you are wrong in setting your date? No. It does not mean that you are wrong in setting your date. It simply means that you have failed to prove your thesis.

[Samie]

Some reading this thread may wonder why I have commented extensively on the issue of the Jewish calendars and I have not commented on what would be considered the major issue. IOW, why deal with what may be a minor issue and leave the major one alone.

...

In this thread, I have concentrated on the Jewish calendars due to the fact that the conclusions cannot be considered correct absent the establishment of a valid understanding of the calendars and how months and days may have been determined in the time of Christ.

For my part, the non-establishment or establishment of a valid understanding of the Jewish calendar and how months and days may have been determined in the time of Christ does not play a determining role in the conclusion I arrived at.

Why?

Because my reference is not the Jewish calendar but the ACT of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. What ACT? His ACT of eating Passover. And I believed that ACT was done on a full moon night. Do you agree that the Lord ate Passover with His disciples on a full moon night prior to His arrest? If NO, why?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

For my part, the non-establishment or establishment of a valid understanding of the Jewish calendar and how months and days may have been determined in the time of Christ does not play a determining role in the conclusion I arrived at.

Why?

Because my reference is not the Jewish calendar but the ACT of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. What ACT? His ACT of eating Passover. And I believed that ACT was done on a full moon night. Do you agree that the Lord ate Passover with His disciples on a full moon night prior to His arrest? If NO, why?

Yes Samie, I do agree with you.

And I liked the way you put it, <<<the ACT of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. What ACT? His ACT of eating Passover.>>>

I think that was very good; and that is exactly how I believe CHRIST "ATE", THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH --- HE LIVED IT; HE WAS IT; HE SUFFERED IT: HIMSELF HAVING BEEN THE BREAD OF LIFE BROKEN AND THE LAMB OF GOD KILLED --- which <<ACT>> of Jesus was his act of EATING the last Passover.

And yes, it DID occur on a full moon night --- a full moon night and day because it was “the fourteenth day”, "the first day to remove leaven on” (Exodus 12:15 “in its season” Leviticus 23:4)— “the first day (of the Passover of Yahweh) they always had to KILL the passover on" Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John 13:1,30 1Corinthians 11:23.

As far as I can see – as far as this aspect of Jesus’ Last Passover is concerned, there is only the difference as to whether or not Jesus’ <ACT> of having ‘eaten’ the Passover of Yahweh was to ‘EAT’ “The Flesh” of it – Himself --, or to eat the Bread on the table which He “GAVE” --- as “MY flesh” -- to his disciples, to eat.

This is wonderful, my brother.

Since you likewise acknowledge that the Lord ate Passover on a full moon night with His disciples prior to His arrest, do you also believe as I do that using current technology it is not difficult to map that specific full moon night with the Gregorian calendar?

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, both Samie and Gerhard: You believe that Christ ate the Passover on a full moon night. In order to relate that day and month to a day and month in our present calendar you have to understand the Jewish festival calendar. Without that understanding one cannot relate that day to a present day.

This issue is further confounded by the fact that in the time of Christ there was more than one Jewish festival calendar in use.

The date for Easter is the issue that split the Christian Church many years ago. It is this issue that results in the Orthodox Church celebrating Easter, sometimes, on a date different from the Roman Church.

NOTE: Occasionally they celebrate Easter on the same day. That happened this year (2014) when Easter was celebrated by both groups on April 20.

However, here are the dates for Easter in the future:

2015: Orthodox on April 12

Roman on April 5

2016: Orthodox on May 1

Roman on March 27

The issues that divided the Christian Church in the past are complex. I do not believe that either of you have ever addressed these issues. That is just one of the reasons that I do not believe that either of you understand the issues.

If you do not understand and/or address the issues, why should anyone take you seriously as to your conclusions?

[Samie]

Yes, both Samie and Gerhard: You believe that Christ ate the Passover on a full moon night. In order to relate that day and month to a day and month in our present calendar you have to understand the Jewish festival calendar. Without that understanding one cannot relate that day to a present day.

[Samie]

...

The date for Easter is the issue that split the Christian Church many years ago. It is this issue that results in the Orthodox Church celebrating Easter, sometimes, on a date different from the Roman Church.

NOTE: Occasionally they celebrate Easter on the same day. That happened this year (2014) when Easter was celebrated by both groups on April 20.

However, here are the dates for Easter in the future:

2015: Orthodox on April 12

Roman on April 5

2016: Orthodox on May 1

Roman on March 27

The issues that divided the Christian Church in the past are complex. I do not believe that either of you have ever addressed these issues. That is just one of the reasons that I do not believe that either of you understand the issues.

[Gregory Matthews]

Here are major questions:

1) Did Christ celebrate Passover on the same date that the Jews celebrated it?

If you say that Christ celebrated Passover on a different day from that observed by the Jews in His time, support your thesis. A reasonable person would suggest that Christ celebrated Passover on the same day.

2) What calendar was used to track the Jewish festivals in the time of Christ?

The Calendar used in the time of Christ sometimes had 12 months and sometimes 13 months in a year. Its months sometimes had 29 days and sometimes had 30 days.

The 13 month calendar had Adar as the name for the 12trh month, as did the 12 month calendar, and it had Adar II as the name for the 13th month.

This difference in months affected the beginning of the 1st month, which was named Nisan. It also resulted in some years there were more days between Passover than there were in other years.

3) How was the date for the "Full moon" determined?

Sometime in the 4th century after Christ, the Jews developed an astronomical method of calculating fixed dates for the Jewish festivals. This was done to accommodate the diaspora--the Jews who were scattered among other nations and who with this new method of calculating the festival dates could keep them on the same date--if they chose to accept this new method of reckoning the date.

Prior to the development of this new astronomical method of calculating the festival dates, the date of the New Moon was a date that was determined by a Rabbi in Palestine observing it in the sky and announcing it in a formal announcement. This resulted in a variation in the announced date from an astronomical date that we might calculate today. The variation would be due to observational issues.

It was also in the 4th century that the Jewish calendar began a 19 year cycle that had further impact on the festival dates.

While some might say that this 19 year cycle existed in the time of Christ, I do not believe that the evidence supports this thesis.

4) It should be noted that I am concentrating on Jewish festival dates. I am not spending my time with a civil calendar. I will only say in passing that in the time of Christ civil calendars existed that used a Regnal method of tracking time and that used a Roman civil method which is typically called the Julian calendar today.

NOTE: Regnal is the correct spelling.

It should be noted that the Bible sometime uses the Regnal method. It is used extensively in the O.T. but also sometimes in the N.T.--Luke 3:1 is an example.

The Regnal method is complicated by the fact that Regnal years were calculated by two (2) methods. One has been called the "accession year" method. The 2nd method has been called by a couple of names, one of which is the "antedating method."

There are other issues with the Regnal method.

There were also other methods of calculating the civil years that were used in the time of Christ. The Olympiad method had been used since about 776 B.C. The A.U.C. (ab urbe condita) method had been used since about 753, although these dates are not exact.

5) My discussion above is brief and does not cover every issue. But, what I have said above is elementary and available easily to anyone who wants to study the issues.

NOTE: I plan to say a bit more in another post.

My personal position: Our knowledge level is such that we cannot say with 1002% certainty as to the exact date of the crucifixion and resurrection. We can get close, but not absolute certainty.

[Gregory Matthews]

Part 2 of the discussion:

1) In the time of Christ the term "Passover" was typically used to apply to Nisan 14, but sometimes it was used to apply to The Feast of Unleavened Bread. This is demonstrated by Josephus in ANTIQUITIES. Also check out Luke 22:7, for an interesting verse and there are others.

2) All modern tables that attempt to give the full moon during the time of Christ use modern methods of computing the Passover, which was not how Passover was computed in the time of Christ.

3) Knowledge as to how the lunar calendar of the time of Christ can be coordinated with our solar year is simply lacking. We can not do it with certainty. In fact, we can not calculate with 100% certainty either the day of the week or the month in which the Passover of Christ occurred.

NOTE: Yes, I believe in a Thursday night celebration of the Passover, with a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday morning resurrection.

[Samie]

1) Did Christ celebrate Passover on the same date that the Jews celebrated it?

Scriptures indicate the Lord ate Passover ahead of the Jews. He ate Passover on the night He was arrested. The Jews ate Passover the next night, on the night immediately following His crucifixion.

In 31 AD, the first full moon AFTER the vernal equinox was on Tuesday, March 27. I FIRMLY believe, even if you don't, that the Lord Jesus Christ through Whom God made the worlds including the moon, can NEVER lose track of when full moon was to occur. He ate Passover that same full moon night in COMPLIANCE with the Law He said He came to fulfill. He was crucified Wednesday, March 28. 3 days and 3 nights later as He Himself specified, He resurrected early Saturday morning, March 31.

March 28 was prosabbaton or day before Sabbath and preparation day of passover ((Mark 15:42; John 19:14, 31). Thursday, March 29 was ceremonial Sabbath. They prepared the spices they bought Friday when the ceremonial Sabbath was past (Mark 16:1), and then rested the Sabbath according to the commandment, Saturday (Luke 23:56). Mark recorded Jesus resurrected on "proi prote sabbatou" = "early morning of the chief sabbath" (Mark 16:9).

I don't see any NEED of interpolating or extrapolating our current date with the festival calendar of the Jews in order to arrive at the full moon occurrence when the Lord ate Passover that same night He was arrested.

[Gregory Matthews]

You mention March 27, 28 & 29. By doing so, you have to be able to coordinate dates between the calendar that we use and you just did and the Jewish calendar.

[Samie]

You mention March 27, 28 & 29. By doing so, you have to be able to coordinate dates between the calendar that we use and you just did and the Jewish calendar.

What for? You yourself provided proof there exists more than one Jewish calendar then. If you yourself are not able to coordinate your belief in a Friday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection with either one of the festival calendars of the Jews, why require others to do what you yourself could not do?

I surmise you likewise believe it is possible to track full moon occurrences backward in time. The date I provided for the first full moon after the vernal equinox in AD 31 is beyond question. As SDA minister, you instead accept April 27 as crucifixion date, which would place the Lord's eating of Passover on a NON-FULL MOON night.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

If you yourself are not able to coordinate your belief in a Friday crucifixion and Sunday resurrection with either one of the festival calendars of the Jews, why require others to do what you yourself could not do?

You are in error. I clearly can coordinate my personal belief with a Jewish festival calendar. I have never said otherwise. What I have said is that none of the various proposals for the time of the death and resurrection of Christ can be stated with 100% certainty.

Because none of them can be stated with certainty, I have neither defended my personal position nor have I attacked your position as to the dates/time of those events.

What I have done is to criticize your basic ignorance of factors that influence the issues around this question. Perhaps, I am wrong and you are not ignorant of those factors. But, on the basis of your responses to me and posts that you have made, I believe that you are ignorant of those aspects of the question.

actually, I am dumbfounded on this. I have not gotten into the deep stuff related to this. I totally fail to understand how it is that you fail to understand basic aspects of the issues. That knowledge is easily available.