Samie Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 ... What I have done is to criticize your basic ignorance of factors that influence the issues around this question. Perhaps, I am wrong and you are not ignorant of those factors. But, on the basis of your responses to me and posts that you have made, I believe that you are ignorant of those aspects of the question. ... I am sorry but the way you dance around the issues, Pastor, really amazes me. As SDA minister you cannot deny the fact that you accept April 27, 31 AD as crucifixion date, making the Lord eat Passover on a NON-FULL MOON night. But you just weave and heave and simply IGNORE what was asked and then RANT at something else not asked. I am just curious why "IGNORE & RANT" combined does not apply to the good Pastor. I am sad I have to get down this low. But so far, I have shown that the factors you accuse me of being ignorant of, do not play any role in pinpointing the full moon occurrence when our Lord ate Passover the night He was arrested. Your position in this issue relegates the Savior to a position of eating Passover on a night NOT in accord with the law He said He came to fulfill. Your insistence on those factors looks like just a calculated way of getting around the issue you know you have no escape from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted May 2, 2014 Moderators Share Posted May 2, 2014 Samie said: Quote: As SDA minister you cannot deny the fact that you accept April 27, 31 AD as crucifixion date, . . . I find it interesting that you would say that I can not deny April 27 as the crucifixion date as a SDA Minister. 1) The Seventh-day Adventist Church does not claim April 27, in our time, as the crucifixion date. Yes, individual SDA Scholars do claim that as the date. But, the SDA Church has never required this as an article of faith. 2) The leading thinking of Seventh-day Adventist scholars is that there are three (3) potential days for the crucifixion, which converted to our time would be: April 3, April 7 and April 27. Those scholars believe that the evidence is very strong to rule out April 3. They acknowledge that April 7 may be possible if the Jews followed one of the calendars then in use. However, they believe that two further assumptions are required for this date which cannot be proven and they question whether or not the Jews actually did follow that calendar. As to the April 27 date which you mention, yes SDA scholars have generally accepted April 27, in our time, as the date of the crucifixion. However, those scholars believe that the April 27 date is reasonable, but that it rests on some assumptions that cannot be proven. 3) AS the SDA Church has never claimed April 27 as an article of faith, I, as a SDA clergy person may believe any date for the crucifixion. This is one reason why I have never challenged you as to a specific date. You and all whom you convince can believe any date that you want to believe. You do not have to believe in the April 27 date. You can believe in some other date for the crucifixion and remain a good Seventh-day Adventist. 4) It appears to me that in addition to not understanding the issues related to the calendar, you do not understand what SDAs require members to believe. While many SDA Scholars do believe in an April 27 date, they acknowledge that it cannot be proven and it is not required as an article of faith. Regardless of what I may personally believe, I have never stated that April 27 is an article of faith that others must believe in order to be a SDA. They do not. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted May 2, 2014 Moderators Share Posted May 2, 2014 It has been stated that Christ observed the Passover supper on the day proceeding the day when the Jews observed the Passover. That statement may be a partial truth. Christ may have observed the Passover supper on a day that was before certain Jewish groups observed it. As I have said, there were in the time of Christ, differences in the observance of the Jewish festival days. I am not going to argue that point as I do not believe that it can be settled with 100% certainty. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 You brought out 3 dates: Apr 3, 7, & 27 in 31 AD. All those dates would relegate our Lord to a position of eating Passover on a NON-FULL MOON night, an act NOT in accord with the law He said He came to fulfill. Why do you think March 28, 31 AD crucifixion date cannot pass as a better choice, when that would mean the Lord ate Passover on the full moon night of March 27, a full moon? If I remembered correctly, you reminded pkrause that the date for Passover has everything to do with a full moon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 It has been stated that Christ observed the Passover supper on the day proceeding the day when the Jews observed the Passover. That statement may be a partial truth. Christ may have observed the Passover supper on a day that was before certain Jewish groups observed it. As I have said, there were in the time of Christ, differences in the observance of the Jewish festival days. I am not going to argue that point as I do not believe that it can be settled with 100% certainty. You seem to imply that when John said it was preparation day of passover when the Lord was crucified, he was not 100% certain of what he was saying. As minister of the word, do you have any Biblical basis for your claim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted May 2, 2014 Moderators Share Posted May 2, 2014 Is there a Biblical basis? Yes. But, as I said, I am not going to debate this issue. Quote: You seem to imply that when John said it was preparation day of passover when the Lord was crucified, he was not 100% certain of what he was saying. It is proposed by some that John does not agree with Matthews, Mark and Luke. I take the position that all four are in agreement. My position is that John, Matthew, Mark and Luke all knew what they were saying. The problem is not with them. Any problem is with our understanding of what they are saying. As this issue has been well discussed, I will leave the solution for you to acknowledge and bring up if you wish. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 All four gospel writers agree and were 100% certain that Jesus ate Passover ahead of the Jews, contrary to what you said it is not 100% He did. Quote: Matthew 26:19-20 19 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. 20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. Mark 14:16-17 16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 17 And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. Luke 22:13-14 13 And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. That same evening, He was arrested. When morning came, He was delivered to Pilate, and later crucified. John recorded it was preparation of Passover when the Savior was crucified: Quote: John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! You are not supposed to debate this issue. The Bible settles it 100% that Jesus ate Passover ahead of the Jews, even if a Pastor does not yet believe: I am not going to argue that point as I do not believe that it can be settled with 100% certainty. Between what the Bible says and what a Pastor believes, I choose Scriptures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 2, 2014 Share Posted May 2, 2014 The Lord Jesus Christ had already eaten Passover with His disciples before His arrest that same night. This is BEYOND question. When morning came, He was delivered to Pilate, tried and crucified. John recorded the day He was crucified was preparation day of Passover: Quote: NKJ John 19:14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold your King!" NKJ John 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. While the Jews were still preparing for Passover, our Savior had already eaten Passover the night before! There is just no hint of UNCERTAINTY that Jesus ate Passover a day ahead of the Jews, a fact ATTESTED TO by all four gospel writers. In ACCORD with the law He said He came to fulfill, Jesus ate Passover on a full moon night, ahead by a day than did the Jews. Following their calendar, the Jews ate Passover a day late, most probably because crescent sighting was a day late making their calendar dates to fall OUT OF SYNCH with the lunar phase. On the other hand, our Lord through Whom God made the worlds including the moon, can NEVER lose track of the lunar phases: He ate Passover on the night the moon was full. Our Savior followed the lunar phase God designed. The Jews followed the dates of their festival calendar the dates of which were out of synch with the lunar phases that month. If it is to be insisted that the Jews ate Passover on a full moon, then our Lord's eating of Passover was not on a full moon, and He would have acted NOT in accord with the law He said He came to fulfill. But since the Master Himself said He came to fulfill the law, then it was the Jews who did not eat Passover on a full moon night. Who erred: the Jews or the Lord? Even a first grader knows the correct answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 ... Samie, it is NOT written anywhere, Indicative Predicative : Jesus <ATE> of anything on the table Himself. ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Amnsn Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Originally Posted By: Ron Amnsn Samie, I agree that Jesus fulfilled the Law. However, I have read the Law many times and have never seen where it says that Passover occurs at the astronomically calculated full moon, nor where it says one is required to eat Passover at the astronomical full moon. Where do you read about this full moon requirement in the Law? Specific instructions for Passover: Quote: KJV Numbers 9:1-3 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the first month of the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying, 2 Let the children of Israel also keep the passover at his appointed season. 3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted May 3, 2014 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2014 This last passage says nothing about the moon at all. The only thing that the Law actually specifies about the Passover in relation to the moon is that the Passover must start on the 14th day of the month.Exactly Ron Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Passover is a full moon festival. This is beyond question, Ron & pkrause. If you are SDA, you knew this. If not, then you are supposed to know this. "kese" is Hebrew for full moon, and that is the Hebrew word in Ps 81:3. v3. Tiq`û baHödeš šôpär BaK Kësè lüyôm HaGGënû v4. Kî cHöq lüyiSrä´ël hû´ mišPä† lë´löhê ya`áqöb v5. `ëdût Bîhôsëp Sämô Bücë´tô `al-´erec micräyim Süpat lö´-yäda`Tî ´ešmä` Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 As sequel to my last post, I am reposting this: The Lord Jesus Christ had already eaten Passover with His disciples before His arrest that same night. This is BEYOND question. When morning came, He was delivered to Pilate, tried and crucified. John recorded the day He was crucified was preparation day of Passover: Quote: NKJ John 19:14 Now it was the Preparation Day of the Passover, and about the sixth hour. And he said to the Jews, "Behold your King!" NKJ John 19:31 Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. While the Jews were still preparing for Passover, our Savior had already eaten Passover the night before! There is just no hint of UNCERTAINTY that Jesus ate Passover a day ahead of the Jews, a fact ATTESTED TO by all four gospel writers. In ACCORD with the law He said He came to fulfill, Jesus ate Passover on a full moon night, ahead by a day than did the Jews. Following their calendar, the Jews ate Passover a day late, most probably because crescent sighting was a day late making their calendar dates to fall OUT OF SYNCH with the lunar phase. On the other hand, our Lord through Whom God made the worlds including the moon, can NEVER lose track of the lunar phases: He ate Passover on the night the moon was full. Our Savior followed the lunar phase God designed. The Jews followed the dates of their festival calendar the dates of which were out of synch with the lunar phases that month. If it is to be insisted that the Jews ate Passover on a full moon, then our Lord's eating of Passover was not on a full moon, and He would have acted NOT in accord with the law He said He came to fulfill. But since the Master Himself said He came to fulfill the law, then it was the Jews who did not eat Passover on a full moon night. Who erred: the Jews or the Lord? Even a first grader knows the correct answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 The main issue in what we are now discussing is whether the Lord ate Passover on a full moon night or not. My position is that He did, because according to our Lord Himself, He came to fulfill the law, which obviously includes the instructions on when Passover is to be eaten. I had already proven from Scriptures that Passover is a full moon feast. All we do next is trace back the first full moon occurrence after the vernal equinox in AD 31, the period for Passover observance. That full moon was on Tuesday, March 27, 31 AD. Simple. Why make the issue complex, Ron? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Amnsn Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 The main issue in what we are now discussing is whether the Lord ate Passover on a full moon night or not. My position is that He did, because according to our Lord Himself, He came to fulfill the law, which obviously includes the instructions on when Passover is to be eaten. I had already proven from Scriptures that Passover is a full moon feast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Amnsn Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 "kese" is Hebrew for full moon, and that is the Hebrew word in Ps 81:3. The word "kese" occurs only twice in the Bible. Once in Psalms, once in Proverbs, and never in the Law. Please provide evidence from an ancient Hebrew source that this word refers only to the one specific day of the month that corresponds to the astronomically calculated hour when the moon is fullest. The roots of this word indicate that it probably refers instead to the period of several days when the moon is plump or brightly illuminated in the night sky. I have seen no evidence presented that "kese" refers only to the day of the astronomically calculated full moon. You are anachronistically applying your modern definition of the astronomically calculated "full moon" to the Scriptures that were written in a much earlier era. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 ...I agree that Passover occurs at the time of month when the moon is "full" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Originally Posted By: Samie "kese" is Hebrew for full moon, and that is the Hebrew word in Ps 81:3. The word "kese" occurs only twice in the Bible. Once in Psalms, once in Proverbs, and never in the Law. Please provide evidence from an ancient Hebrew source that this word refers only to the one specific day of the month that corresponds to the astronomically calculated hour when the moon is fullest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Originally Posted By: Samie Ps 81:3 says the feast instituted in Egypt was on a full moon, but you insist on having it on different bright nights. Samie, you have been shown to be the blind follower of the pro-Roman Catholic Easter activists. 'Full moon' does not EXIST in the entire Bible, and you have been SHOWN it. Samie, you are HAUNTED by your dreams of Divine Inspiration. That is the ONLY reason why you cannot admit plain common human MISTAKE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Originally Posted By: Samie You just don't want to accept what the Bible says because it goes against what you were taught and believe in. No Samie, You are the one who just don't want to accept what the Bible says because you received revelations and inspirations and accept extra-biblical 'information' above the Scriptures. The Bible does not go against a full moon passover. IT IS NOT THE TRUE ISSUE! The true issue here, is your Wednesday crucifixion HOAX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Originally Posted By: Samie KJV Mark 14:16 And his disciples went forth, and came into the city, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. Mark 14:15,16 “There make ye PREPARATION for us” – ‘ekei hetoimasate hehmin’ … “and THEY-MADE-PREPARATION FOR the passover” - ‘kai hehtoimasan to pascha’. They were not partaking in, passover! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 Originally Posted By: Samie Hoax? Let's see: 1. Tuesday, March 27, 31 AD - Full Moon. The Lord ate Passover with His disciples. 2. Was arrested that same night. 3. Brought to Pilate when morning came: Wednesday, March 28, 31 AD. 4. Was tried and then crucified. He died at around 3 PM. 5. After 3 days and 3 nights, He resurrected early Saturday morning, March 31, 31 AD. Can you show a similar chronology with any other set of dates starting from a Passover full moon as Scriptures specify? YES, but not <<a similar chronology>>!! I can show the SCRIPTURES' chronology WITHOUT depending on extra Biblical <information> and at the same time not be against extra Biblical <information>. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted May 4, 2014 Author Members Share Posted May 4, 2014 Originally Posted By: Samie "kese" is Hebrew for full moon, and that is the Hebrew word in Ps 81:3. ‘kehseh’ [nor ‘kehsehg’] is <<the Hebrew word for full moon>>. Nor does <<Ps 81:3>> speak of the full moon. Samie thinks if he just ignores and turns a blind eye to refutation, nobody else would have noticed that he was utterly proven to be in error. Most of what Samie has to say, I'm in total disagreement, but as far as "Full Moon" in the Bible, I do agree. Have you actually looked at a Hebrew Bible?? Obviously not. Here is the Jewish Online Bible with commentary by the Rabbi most Jews consider the greatest Rabbi. Psalms 81:4. Sound the shofar on the New Moon, on the appointed time for the day of our festival. and here is his commentary of this verse: on the New Moon: When the moon renews itself. on the appointed time: The appointed day for it, and so (Prov. 7:20): “on the appointed day (בכסה) he will come home”; to the appointed time that had been fixed. and I shall fill it: According to whatever you ask I will fill. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samie Posted May 4, 2014 Share Posted May 4, 2014 I understand why there are those who disagree with my position. My position caught them by surprise, and not only that, it is SURPRISINGLY Biblically correct. That's why all their objections were all adequately addressed via Scriptures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted May 5, 2014 Moderators Share Posted May 5, 2014 Quote: That's why all their objections were all adequately addressed via Scriptures. Nonsense. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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