Gay Danish Couples Win Right to Marry In Any Church They Choose

[BobRyan]

BTW - I notice that support for editing posts seems to be "optional" - is that new for the CA forum?

[bonnie]

When members of our church come to the local congregation and demand a same-sex marriage wedding take place - and we say "no" and oh by the way you are fellowshipped ... I wonder how that will play out 'in the courts' of tomorrow.

in Christ,

Bob

Our turn is coming but somehow the belief seems to be that by supporting and championing gay marriage that we will be looked on more kindly. This will only involve the other guys.

Frankly I don 't necessarily blame those that will force the issue.

By what has been posted the last year or so,it would be very difficult for someone coming across the posts here to understand the denomination itself claims to be against gay marriage,and considers a gay lifestyle the abomination that God calls it.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

When members of our church come to the local congregation and demand a same-sex marriage wedding take place - and we say "no" and oh by the way you are fellowshipped ... I wonder how that will play out 'in the courts' of tomorrow.

in Christ,

Bob

Our turn is coming but somehow the belief seems to be that by supporting and championing gay marriage that we will be looked on more kindly.

[bonnie]

I have to agree with them on that point. Any time we embrace/facilitate/condone sin -- those promoting it will consider our actions as being kind and loving toward the sinner.

How so? Our 28 FB and our official denomination "statements" on the subject are not ambiguous - they clearly state that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid and all else is sin.

How would those coming to C/A get the impression from threads here that such was not the case?

in Christ,

Bob

I sometimes read discussion forums of other denominations.

Generally my impression of what the members believe is formed by what members have to say about certain topics.

I don 't always look up their official statement.

This.....official denomination "statements" on the subject are not ambiguousis not all the clear when you promote and support an agenda you claim to believe is wrong.

[bonnie]

This is an article affirming the gay lifestyle of this pastor's son, although not written by a SDA pastor,where I copied it from has wholehearted support from SDA's

https://www.tytnetwork.com/2014/06/07/southern-baptist-minister-accepts-gay-son/

If one of my sons had been gay,I would never have turned my back on them.However I would not affirm and wholeheartedly support his gay lifestyle.

With the support this topic has from SDA's members how long before we get the demand to marry gays?

More interesting,how long before there will be a church that go their own way and will do so?

[BobRyan]

I have to agree with them on that point. Any time we embrace/facilitate/condone sin -- those promoting it will consider our actions as being kind and loving toward the sinner.

How so? Our 28 FB and our official denomination "statements" on the subject are not ambiguous - they clearly state that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid and all else is sin.

How would those coming to C/A get the impression from threads here that such was not the case?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

With the support this topic has from SDA's members how long before we get the demand to marry gays?

More interesting,how long before there will be a church that go their own way and will do so?

I agree with you that this train wreck is coming.

And the court system is making it clear that it will promote the train wreck until there is a constitutional convention that stops it.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

With the support this topic has from SDA's members how long before we get the demand to marry gays?

Well, to answer your question, we have our history: That history shows that demands have already been made upon our clergy to perform specific weddings. Not one of those demands has ever succeeded in the United States.

How do I know? Simple, that demands have been made upon me. No, not one of them was a homosexual wedding. But, they have been weddings that for other reasons I refused to perform. That has happened to me as a U.S. Army chaplain. The demand to perform the wedding failed.

The most recent one was as a chaplain for the Department of Veterans' Affairs. The demand that I perform the wedding of a male Jewish person to a woman of a Protestant group failed. There have been other weddings that I have refused to perform.

There is a bottom line: Under the Federal Constitution, no one, outside of the denomination that I represent, can force me to provide a sacramental service to any person.

The Supreme court rulings as to the meaning and application of the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution are clear. The SDA Church, that credentials me, is the only body that can discipline me for the manner in which I conduct my sacramental duties. The U.S. courts cannot even enquire as to the reasons for my refusal to provide the sacramental service.

[Aliensanctuary]

It would not shock me, that if Congress were disbanded or destroyed and the Constitution suspended, then the ruling dictator/president of this country could force everyone to comply with his demands, or else. Members of religions could be imperiled if an unsympathetic dictator decided to ban or control the free exercise of religion.

As the world drifts closer and closer to the same conditions that existed in the days of Noah, nothing lying, murderous, thieving, wicked people do should surprise us. We will be safe if we have made a contract with the LORD to obey him and shun evil. We should not be surprised if we, as followers of Christ, are persecuted and vilified, or worse, by defending his commandments that were designed to benefit all of humanity and protect humans from each other.

Perhaps the next ruler of the USA will not be heterosexual, if that matters.

[bonnie]

Quote:

I understand that having a name like "club Adventist" might lead the reader to suppose that the views posted are all promoted by the Adventist denomination.

But it would be problematic to exclude all the voices - and wild one-off opinions ... without resorting to the tactics of web sites like RemnantOnLine where dissenters are simply banned.

Which leaves us with the actual Denomination's statement as the most reliable way to tell what is actually the view of the denomination itself.

in Christ,

Bob

No one has suggested that anyone be silenced. I was simply stating what seems to be a common theme agreeing that there is a right to gay marriage.

[bonnie]

I agree with you that this train wreck is coming.

And the court system is making it clear that it will promote the train wreck until there is a constitutional convention that stops it.

in Christ,

Bob

And the other side of the coin is when the a constitutional convention affirms what so many are at present.

We can't stop the train wreck from happening but I believe there will be a price to pay for being on board right up to

opening the gate.

[bonnie]

Well, to answer your question, we have our history: That history shows that demands have already been made upon our clergy to perform specific weddings. Not one of those demands has ever succeeded in the United States.

[bonnie]

Which leaves us with the actual Denomination's statement as the most reliable way to tell what is actually the view of the denomination itself.

in Christ,

Bob

We are becoming as comfortable with the gay lifestyle as we have with abortion and divorce.I don't know the stats on abortion among adventists but I doubt if it is any different than the secular world. I know our divorce rate is comparable.The denominations statement on both don't seem to be a consideration or very important.

I am not altogether convinced that in time it will take the force of the federal government to try to force SDA pastors to perform gay weddings

[BobRyan]

Certainly there are rogue elements operating inside the church today that can be counted upon to go to almost any extreme. I do not doubt that - but they are not in majority.

I think that some of them "thought they were the majority" back in 2010 when the issue of blind faith evolutionism came up for a vote at the GC session. They were quickly disabused of their "we are the majority" false self-evaluation.

The same is true with a number of issues today - gay marriage being one of them. In some conferences - there is a greater tendency to fringe extreme liberal positions "as the new norm" than most others. They are what we might call "A vocal few" agitating for the world within the church.

BE that as it may - the almost 20 million member church itself does not appear to be buying into that extreme left-wing fringe mantra.

Think about it - if the church were to actually free-fall into some of the non-sda morality and doctrines that certain groups propose - we would be on the wrong side of Rev 14 at the start. We would be among the commandment breakers -- and the fight would need to be with 'someone else" standing for the truth of God's Word - not us.

Ellen White seems to have been told that though there will be a mass exodus out of this denomination - this church itself will stand firm and be joined by many millions more taking their stand for the truth of God's Word.

in Christ,

Bob

[bonnie]

Certainly there are rogue elements operating inside the church today that can be counted upon to go to almost any extreme. I do not doubt that - but they are not in majority.

I think that some of them "thought they were the majority" back in 2010 when the issue of blind faith evolutionism came up for a vote at the GC session. They were quickly disabused of their "we are the majority" false self-evaluation.

The same is true with a number of issues today - gay marriage being one of them. In some conferences - there is a greater tendency to fringe extreme liberal positions "as the new norm" than most others. They are what we might call "A vocal few" agitating for the world within the church.

BE that as it may - the almost 20 million member church itself does not appear to be buying into that extreme left-wing fringe mantra.

Think about it - if the church were to actually free-fall into some of the non-sda morality and doctrines that certain groups propose - we would be on the wrong side of Rev 14 at the start. We would be among the commandment breakers -- and the fight would need to be with 'someone else" standing for the truth of God's Word - not us.

Ellen White seems to have been told that though there will be a mass exodus out of this denomination - this church itself will stand firm and be joined by many millions more taking their stand for the truth of God's Word.

in Christ,

Bob

I didn't say the church will fall. Nor that all SDA's would embrace a gay marriage/lifestyle. I do thin k it will cause dissension and many going there own way.

Gay marriage or the right to gay marriage has far to many embracing that as a "right" to think that this will not cause severe problems in time

[Stan]

The question begs to be asked, what percentage of the Danish Paycheck is give to the Churches automatically? Seems to me it is 5%. Perhaps our unhorse Danish/Icelandic Pastor can give details.

Well Johann?

[Gregory Matthews]

Stan: Did you mean our "in-house" Danish/Icelandic pastor.

Or, did you mean, as you wrote, our Danish/Icelandic pastor who is not a horse.

Sorry about that. I could not resist.

[Stan]

bitten by autocorrect again...

Perhaps our in-house Danish/Icelandic Pastor

Johann?

[Johann]

Good question. In 2013 79% of the population of Denmark were members of the Lutheran People's Church. This makes a total membership of 4.430.643. Many Danish theologians refuse to call it a State Church.

This is the only church in Denmark which has the legal rights to collect their membership fees through taxes. Taxes vary locally.

In 2013 the average church fees collected were 0,88% of the taxable income of church members. The most expensive community was the island of Samsoe, where the inhabitants had to pay 1,48%. The lowest was Gentofte, in the outskirts of Copenhagen with only 0,42%.

The church tax provides 75% of the income of the People's church. Besides that the churches have extra income from various fees, rent for parsonages, etc. The state has to cover the deficit.

[Johann]

I did have an Icelandic mare when I was 14. It was impossible to fence her in and she kept running away, always to the same place. So I sold her to the farmer at that locality. My dad didn't like her because her color reminded him of Rev. 6:8.