Amelia Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 Electrocuted pastor's final prayer: 'Surprise me, God' Ironic theme in case of Christian minister shocked to death during baptism November 6, 2005 That disclosure came this morning on the national radio program, Coast to Coast AM, by Terry Esau, author of "Surprise Me, a 30-Day Faith Experiment," who had been invited to speak at the University Baptist Church in Waco, Texas. During a service last Sunday morning, Rev. Kyle Lake was standing in waist-high water as he prepared to baptize a woman. When he reached for a corded microphone, the 33-year-old was jolted by electricity, and did not survive. The woman going to be baptized was unharmed. The incident took place just minutes after the 800 members in attendance had prayed aloud, "Surprise me, God." When asked if he thought the events were result of asking to be surprised, Esau, who witnessed the electrocution, said, "I wish I could answer that. I honestly, truly don't know. That gets you into all kinds of really, really hard questions. 'Does God cause everything to happen?' or 'Is there tragedy and chaos and stuff in the world because it's the natural consequences of humankind and our freedom of choice?'" Esau speculated on what Lake could have said about the stunning event, wondering if the young pastor might have quoted from a well-known bumper sticker reading "[Garbage] Happens." "I think he would have said, 'There are laws of nature, electrical laws, and they were violated that day and I was in a really bad place where the violation happened.'" Esau addressed some 4,000 Baylor University students the following day, and invited them to question and wrestle with what happened, saying God is not intimidated by our questions, though Esau couldn't explain why the tragedy occurred. "I see a lot of people who are going, 'You know, we don't know how long we get to live. And maybe I should take more seriously this day that I have. Maybe I should look more at what is the purpose of my life. Who is God? How does He fit in with me? What's my story? What is our story? Where do we go from here?' "If people can start wrestling with these questions instead of just putting their lives on cruise control and saying, 'It is what it is, I need to make money, I need to be comfortable,' then I think good has come from it. I think Kyle would be pleased with that." University Baptist Church has posted part of Lake's final sermon on its website, as he wrote: Live. And live well. Breathe. Breathe in and breathe deeply. Be present. Do not be past. Do not be future. Be now. On a crystal clear, breezy 70-degree day, roll down the windows and feel the wind against your skin. Feel the warmth of the sun. ... Taste every ounce of flavor. Taste every ounce of friendship. Taste every ounce of life. Because it is most definitely a gift. The church is now raising funds for Lake's family, as Kyle is survived by his wife and three children. Churches across America are discussing safety issues when it comes to baptisms, with some experts saying pastors should use only wireless microphones when performing full-immersion baptisms. [:"purple"] 'Does God cause everything to happen?' or 'Is there tragedy and chaos and stuff in the world because it's the natural consequences of humankind and our freedom of choice?' [/] Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lambert Posted November 7, 2005 Share Posted November 7, 2005 God allows things to happen sometimes that make Him sad. But we as a race have in effect told God to "back off" and "don't breathe down our necks," "give us some space." And as a result, He has backed off, and given us space, and allowed us all to be ruled to a large extent by "time and chance." Note the following Scripture: Quote: I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. (Ecclesiastes 9:11) This is how we as a race have chosen to be governed; and then when things go wrong, we demand why God let it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 It is still as puzzling as Gods allowing sin to appear in a former most undeserving heaven or universe. Nothing can exist without Him. Quote Test me with thy might but grant me safe passage. Now, who said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lambert Posted November 8, 2005 Share Posted November 8, 2005 True, nothing can exist without God. "In Him we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:28.) That is why from the beginning, God had the knowledge of good and evil (see Gen. 3:22). At Calvary, God demonstrated to us His choice to refuse to have any part of evil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Be careful here....God is not the creator of sin. It is not His invention in any form or shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Quote: Robert said: God is not the creator of sin. [:"red"] "Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things." [/] Isaiah 45:7 YLT The interesting thing about the acceptance of the fact that God has all authority, this particular Scripture only points out that He prepares evil. As the ultimate Authority, to see Him as being able to do away with it anytime He wants, then not admitting that He had some influence in its' inception, would be to reduce Him to a lesser power. As a created being, I make no claim to evidence that He does not freely yield. The death of His Son for the sins of His children indicates He accepts full responsibility for the damage of sin/sins. This without any admission of fault. Unlike my admission of sinful conduct, which it seems impossible to clear myself of guilt/fault if I am honest with myself. [:"red"] "AND JESUS summoned to Him His twelve disciples and gave them power and authority over unclean spirits, to drive them out, and to cure all kinds of disease and all kinds of weakness and infirmity." [/] Matthew 10:1 AMP [:"red"] "And having come near, Jesus spake to them, saying, `Given to me was all authority in heaven and on earth" [/] Matthew 28:18 YLT Keep the faith! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Quote: God is not the creator of sin. It is not His invention in any form or shape I have changed my mind, based on changing my analysis, several times on this topic. My current analysis is this (a) The only way to know the behavior of an extremely complex system is to either construct it, or to construct a model of it, and let it run ( God deliberately created a complex system © He did so knowing that the system had potential for producing 'life' - complex-acting self-reproducing organisms. (d) He did so knowing that these lifes could 'sin', and that He could not be sure this would not happen (e) He made the system knowing this - although not being able to predict exactly when or where it would happen To this extent - the deliberate creation of a system that had the possibility of sin - God is indeed the inventor. Furthermore He maintains the system running, with sin in it. To this extent He is responsible for sin. And, being responsible and loving, He is going to clean it up one of these days... /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted November 9, 2005 Members Share Posted November 9, 2005 Quote: My current analysis is this (a) The only way to know the behavior of an extremely complex system is to either construct it, or to construct a model of it, and let it run ( God deliberately created a complex system © He did so knowing that the system had potential for producing 'life' - complex-acting self-reproducing organisms. (d) He did so knowing that these lifes could 'sin', and that He could not be sure this would not happen (e) He made the system knowing this - although not being able to predict exactly when or where it would happen To this extent - the deliberate creation of a system that had the possibility of sin - God is indeed the inventor. Furthermore He maintains the system running, with sin in it. To this extent He is responsible for sin. Doesn't this assume that God is bound by time and is then not omniscient? Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Deep question. The only way to know exactly what a complex system will do is simulate it or run it. From the point of view of the entities in the simulation/run, the result is the same. So the conclusion is that God can not know what a complex system will do before either (a) it does it, or ( the simulation does it - and in both cases you get entities that are 'alive' at a time where God doesn't know what will happen next. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Of all creations created I can somehow imagine intelligence to be most unfathomable. Being creator but still kept from dictating intelligences otherwise it would not be an intelligent thing then. Probably it's like having an android to play chess with us to the extent of defeating us except that we are without blemish and won't loose then. A poor illustration, I believe. God is love, Raphael Quote Test me with thy might but grant me safe passage. Now, who said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted November 9, 2005 Members Share Posted November 9, 2005 Quote: The only way to know exactly what a complex system will do is simulate it or run it. From the point of view of the entities in the simulation/run, the result is the same. So the conclusion is that God can not know what a complex system will do before either (a) it does it, or ( the simulation does it - and in both cases you get entities that are 'alive' at a time where God doesn't know what will happen next. Hmm. :: Is scientific logic applicable to God Himself? If I took a couple loaves of bread and a few fish and tore them into the smallest bits of crackers and fish, it still wouldn't be enough to feed the Brady Bunch, much less a couple thousand hungry folks. (Unless, of course, I was using *Wonder Bread*, where the slices seem to multiply and divide in the bag...) Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Quote: bevin said: And, being responsible and loving, He is going to clean it up one of these days... /Bevin Praise God!! I can accept that wholeheartedly. [:"red"] "What do you conspire against the LORD? He will make an utter end of it. Affliction will not rise up a second time. " [/] Nahum 1:9 NKJV [:"red"] "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it." [/] Isaiah 25:8 KJV [:"red"] "For the Lamb who stands in front of the throne will be their Shepherd. He will lead them to the springs of life-giving water. And God will wipe away all their tears." [/] Rev 7:16-18 NLT [:"red"] And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." [/] Revelation 21:4 KJV Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 If God is in any way the creator of sin, then God is the architect of sin...He is its inventor. If that were true God Himself would be no better than the devil. But my Bible tells me differently: Ez 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. Now how do you define iniquity? "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Is 53:6 This own wayness is exactly opposite the love implanted in Lucifer's heart when God created him. That's because God's love is based on selflessness as seen in 1 Cor 13:5 "If I give all I possess to the poor...but have not love, I gain nothing...." Now what is love? 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking...." The essence of all sin is self-seeking. Think about it, everything we do, in and of ourselves, is polluted with "self". God is not the creator of evil. He created sinless beings in His image after His likeness. Neither did He create His unfallen being to be mere robots...but within that creation He allowed free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 Quote: Robert said: Ez 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. 13 You said in your heart [i.e., your desires, emotions], “I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” [is. 14] Lucifer "coveted" position....he wanted to be # 1 like he perceived God to be. While it is true that God is all-powerful, this same God is selfless. The cross proves this because it’s here that we see a God who was willing to say goodbye to life - not for 3 days - but for eternity so His murders might taken His place in heaven. He lives to serve! That's why Christ said, “If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all, and servant of all.” In fact He really used the word slave: Matt 20:20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Him with her sons, bowing down, and making a request of Him. 21 And He said to her, “What do you wish?” She said to Him, “Command that in Your kingdom these two sons of mine may sit, one on Your right and one on Your left.” This mom, like most moms, loved her own. She wasn't concerned about others...just her own boys and she wanted to make sure they had the best - she wanted them right up there with God! Lucifer wanted the same.... 22 But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you are asking for. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to Him, “We are able.” 23 He said to them, “My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father.” 24 And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to Himself, and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them." Tell me, do our governing officials live for you or for themselves? Are they truly servants of the people or are they self-serving and politically motivated? Do they treat all people alike or do they pander to their own? 26 “It is not so among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raphael Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Could someone help find any verses on a fact that nothing, meaning literally nothing, can exist without God? Nothing includes thoughts, awareness, existances of anything of any substance, abstract or concrete. You see I ain't no minister. Love & forgiveness, Raphael Quote Test me with thy might but grant me safe passage. Now, who said that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted November 20, 2005 Share Posted November 20, 2005 Quote: If God is in any way the creator of sin, then God is the architect of sin...He is its inventor. If that were true God Himself would be no better than the devil. ... The essence of all sin is self-seeking. Think about it, everything we do, in and of ourselves, is polluted with "self". God is not the creator of evil. He created sinless beings in His image after His likeness. Neither did He create His unfallen being to be mere robots...but within that creation He allowed free will. You make huge sweeping statements without any attempt to adequately define or prove them. Your fundamental definitional flaw is right here "free will". Free will is an immeasurable, undefinable, concept invented as a get-out-of-jail-free card to escape from your previous logical flaw. Your previous flaw is "God created Satan, Satan sinned, God does not create evil, therefore there must be some magic way of avoid the obvious conclusion that God created evil". I have never yet found a christian who can tell me a test that can be applied to a subject to decide if it has free will. I will demonstrate this. I am thinking of two entities - in 20 yes/no questions I want you to determine whether each of them has free will. Anagrams of the two entities are aaaeeeiooohmnnnpst aaaaeiiuulrrt Hopefully you won't be able to unscramble them and get my entities that way... /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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