the Ellen White American Prophet book

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'm still reading the Ellen White, American Prophet book. I'm about 1/2 way through. It's my "reading-to-put-me-to-sleep-at-night" book.

I'm discovering a number of things -- all of which are somewhat disconcerting when put up against the belief of the SDA church that Mrs White was a prophet, had unique inspired visions, and about the advice and directives she gave to the church.

While I've known that Mrs White "borrowed" from other authors for large portions of her books, I had no idea that the descriptions she wrote of her visions were *also* taken from other writers.

What's up with that?? If a supposed vision is giving information never seen before, how is it that the description was written earlier by someone else?

Any thoughts about that? I'd really like an explanation.

[CoAspen]

Can you give us an example? Would be very interesting to read.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Here's a good example from the book:

"White did not limit her copying to nicely phrased passages and historical facts. Occasionally, the words of others found their way into descriptions of visionary experiences. in 1890, for example, she recorded in her diary what she had seen in a recent vision, in which her 'guide' [an angel] said:

Quote:

The whys and wherefores are often concealed from you, yet speak the words I shall give you, however painful it may be to you. The ways in which God leads his people are generally mysterious...God knows better than you do what is good and essential for his children. He never leads them otherwise than they would wish to be led if they were able to see as clearly as He does what they must do to establish characters that will fit them for the heavenly courts.

"The latter part of this passage was subsequently recycled in The Desire of Ages as 'God never leads his children otherwise than they would choose to be led, if they could see the end from the beginning.' Decades earlier, in a work published in English in 1836, the German author Frederick W. Krummacher had penned the following in his Elijah the Tishbite:

Quote:

The whys and wherefores are concealed from us....The ways God leads us are generally mysterious....God...knows exactly and much better than we do what is good and necessary for His children; and, in truth, He never leads them otherwise than they would wish Him to lead them, if they were able to see as clearly into their hearts and necessities as He does.

"

Ellen Harmon White: American Prophet, Chap. 9, p. 98-99.

I find it rather difficult to excuse the blatant use of plagiarism as specific words from Mrs White's "angel guide." It rather begs the question on what she *really* did hear and see in her visions.

[CoAspen]

Hmmm, very interesting, hopefully someone with better knowledge of her writings than I can explain this to me. It certainly sounds as a little curious!!

[Aliensanctuary]

How many different ways can scam be spelled?

EGW, along with her secretaries, may have been excellent writers and editors with excellent PR, but after studying End Times prophecies from scripture several years ago I realized that she was just another one of many scammers from her times. (Note the parlor trick of holding up a huge Bible during which a mirror held up to her nostrils which indicated that she did not breathe while in "vision".)

Sadly, many quote her works as if they were equal to scripture, or even more important, but creating a "prophet" who had "visions" was, after all, a great way to start a denomination and an easy way to make more money than being farmers. She has fooled a lot of people over the years, but the SDA denomination of today can move on and become something better than a personality-cult denomination begun under false pretenses.

May the real Seventh-Day Adventist Church rise up from the ashes of the red-books cult to begin a new chapter, one untainted by one charismatic woman's parlor tricks, plagiarism, phony "visions", gross misinterpretation of Last Days prophecies, and so on.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't think Ellen White tried to scam anyone. Her first "visions" were written in terms "impressions." It wasn't until after others used the term "vision" that Mrs White began to use it.

re: the story about holding up the heavy Bible. Mrs White never wrote about that. It showed up as an unsubstantiated story in (I think) the 1880's. It's how rumors start.

(I'm really not trying to tear down Ellen White. It just seems that the SDA church may have given her a more attributes and elevated position than she actually deserved or had.)

[Smurf]

There are plenty of sites out there that cover how she plagiarize others works. The biggest argument I have heard used defending her doing this is that a lot of people quote from others without giving credit, but the problem with that is she is not just using quotes, she is using large chunks of others hard work...

I agree with the SDA church on a lot of matters (which you can find in the Word of God thru open-eyed study), which I believed way before I knew WHAT the SDA taught, but as for EGW & The Spirit of Prophecy, a good month of study will show anyone the truth.....that EGW was no prophetess when using the Bible to test her.

With that said, I have learned about a few authors that I never heard of, and have enjoyed reading their writings. I also LIKE the Remnant Study Bible a friend has, and have NO problem with EGW writings being in it. A lot of study Bibles have mans word mixed in with God's Word to help with the meaning, but as always, the commentary's & helps are from the mind of man, and should be taken with a grain of salt no matter how may extra letters they have at the end of their name...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

This is getting way past the idea I was trying to discuss. We all know that there are large areas of plagiarized materials in her books and articles. In the Victorian Age, that *was* common practice, especially in religious works.

I'm referring specifically to the visions where Mrs White used the words of others in quoting what her angel guide told her. *That's* what bothers me. It seems questionable when an outside source becomes the message of the angel.

[Gail]

Well said, Pam. When I was discussing this book with our Conference president I told him that there is some material in the book that I wish more of the members knew in order to discourage the "infallible" viewpoint that some have of her and how inspiration works.

If nothing else I would hope that more helpful information would re-establish where our members place their faith. Ideally it should be the Bible. That's not saying she wasn't inspired, but we need to take her advice and keep in mind what is the lesser light and the greater light.

And I notice that there is much repetition within her own work. I don't find that detracts from it at all.

Remember she did nothing against the laws of the time.

[Sojourner]

I have never read a great deal of Ellen White’s books and have only read material normally in the form of quotes on the internet. I am neither defending nor attacking her, yet my observation would be that if God has a message for people, would He only give that message to one single person, or would He give that message to a number of people if we suggest that Ellen White like others at the time operated in the Spiritual Gift of Prophecy or Word of Knowledge or both then it is possible her visions were given to multiple people through God speaking to them and hence would likely be recorded in multiple places.

Still I take up on your point about something being claimed to be a “vision”. For Ellen White to repeat those things, then they would have had to come to her in the form of an actual vision, not via reading them somewhere and passing them of as her own vision as to what God is saying to the church. My understanding of a vision it that it is separate from a dream and is indicative of an individual encountering God or His emissary such as an Angel who wishes to speak with them directly.

One thing that concerned me is some of the claims made by people about what actually happened when Ellen White had these visions and how she was reported to have gone into trance like states and stopped breathing and so forth. I can’t prove if any of that is true or is exaggerated or has simply been embellished at some point. Similar claims were made about Edgar Cayce who was called the Sleeping Prophet who as a Christian also gave various prophecies and health information for illness, yet he is recorded as recounting information on reincarnation for people during his visions which appears to be openly contrary to scripture unlike Ellen White who appears to me to not go outside of Scripture on what she prophecies.

The other angle that I would view the matter is that I am not sure that Ellen White herself ever had any expectation that after her death she would be placed up on some type of pedestal. I suspect she may not be as pleased about that as some of her admirers think that she would be, her ministry appears to me to point people to Jesus, not to herself. Yet this is not exclusive to the SDA denomination. General William Booth is placed on a similar pedestal in Salvation Army churches and is quoted ad nauseam to members by members of his fan club. It was quite a shock to me to discover that he suffered from many bouts of depression and that his wife Catherine Booth was in fact the actual driving force and motivator behind much of his theology and ministry. Far different from what I had been led to believe. - How much of this type of thing happens with admirers of Ellen G White I do not know, but suspect it may be the case on occasions where her life could be embellished via simple enthusiasm and via the Chinese whispers effect.

[CoAspen]

Some good observations.

Hopefully we will see a review from a scholar on the SDA side, with no axe to grind...either way.

[Gregory Matthews]

I have the book. I have read it from beginning to end. I am not a scholar.

It is an important book that tells us how others are looking at us. It should be sold in our ABCs and our members ought to read it. I do not consider it to be perfect. However, my criticisms of it are focused on minor issues.

In its major issues and themes, it contains nothing that has not been known for years by informed people about EGW. New contributions, I consider to be minor. The problem is that probably few of our members were really informed. Perhaps because EGW just was not that important to them.

I will suggest that the members of this denomination will need to deal with the issues raised in this book. But, I do believe that this can be done with the result of a clearer conception as to how God used EGW in the developmental stages of this denomination. I agree with the thought of the authors that the SDA denomination today would not exist in the form that it has if it had not been for the ministry of Ellen and James White.

NOTE: With my retirement, I am now beginning to read some of my books that I have never had the time to read. One book that I began reading Sunday, and will probably finish today is:

Malcom Bull & Keith Lockhart, SEEKING A SANCTUARY: SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISM AND THE AMERICAN DREAM. 2ND EDITION, Indiana University press, 2007, 499 PAGES.

I purchased this book in 2009 and I just now am beginning to read it.

I consider it to be a critical book for SDA members. I will suggest that in evaluating issues and facts, it is a seminal book for our membership. It will challenge and some will object to it. Again, it helps us to see ourselves from another viewpoint. Purchase and read.

[Gregory Matthews]

For much more on the Book by Oxford University on EGW, see:

ADVENTIST TODAY. Summer 2014

Twenty-nine (29) of its thirty-one (31) pages are devoted to articles, written by several people, which are focused on the book by Oxford University.

The above issue if very valuable. Obtain it. Read it.

[CoAspen]

Thanks. I would expect that you are right about SDA's view of EGW. They have not had a reason to check out everything she wrote, quite often just accepting what they were told by the .org. The Generations of today do have a different view point, more realistic. Even my 92 y/o mother now has a different view and she read, marked, underlined and reread the original 3 volume Testimonies over and over. The books I now have from her are falling apart. I think overall it is just a growth in understanding of the whole process of inspiration and literature writing done in her day.

[Tom Wetmore]

That prompts a question for me that has been bouncing around in my head for some time now. It was recently highlighted by an observation made in the context of a discussion about WO to the effect that there will be no disagreement among those being lead by the Holy Spirit.

What do you think?

[Bruce Davey]

In that E G White books are still being printed where there is known copying should the original authors now be acknowledged at the very least as a matter of Christian courtesy.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

......there will be no disagreement among those being lead by the Holy Spirit.

On what subject? Everything, one thing?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

In that E G White books are still being printed where there is known copying should the original authors now be acknowledged at the very least as a matter of Christian courtesy.

that might be a good project for someone at the EG White Estate (I think they're handling the publication aspects of the EGW books)...since there's been SO much investigation of those works, the citations shouldn't be difficult to find now... and it would certainly silence the critics..

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

It was recently highlighted by an observation made in the context of a discussion about WO to the effect that there will be no disagreement among those being lead by the Holy Spirit.

What do you think?

I think that the Holy Spirit doesn't necessarily "lead" on non-salvational issues that involve group consensus.

Those types of issues, even ones stirring lots of emotion such as WO, can be settled by discussion and voting. God did, after all, give us reasoning and common sense -- though somewhere along the line, some seem to have dropped it in evolutionary attrition...

[Tom Wetmore]

Evolutionary attrition... LOL! Common sense seems increasingly an oxymoron.

Seriously... I am inclined to agree with what you said. However, I do think the role of the HS can and does influence the use of our natural abilities. Where I am concerned is that what seems to be the premise behind the observation I mentioned is that if the HS is in the house the human factors disappear, as if the HS gives those under its influence supernatural sense and perfect reasoning, discernment, etc.. The contra idea is that those who disagree then are looked at as not being under the Influence of the HS.

I think that most of the time the Working of the HS is much more subtle. I don't think it necesarily overrides the individual's native abilities, experience and knowledge, except in rare and exceptional circumstances that become miraculously obvious to those present, like the speaking in tongues at Pentecost. I think the HS still has to work through the human agent. It is like giving an old Ford pickup new tires, shocks and a tune up. It will still rattle down the road and won't be race ready. But it will haul its load smoothly and as it was originally designed to do. The HS doesn't touch Ford pickups and turn them into Porches unless a special miracle is really necessary to achieve God's purpose.

But in any event the Work of the HS will bring a sweet spirit of cooperation and togetherness even in the context of disagreements. I hesitate to use the misused word "unity", but that is the spirit that evidences the presence of the HS, IMHO. that spirit of mutual commitment to God and one another that says we are in this together through thick and thin, a oneness that pulls us together not pushes us apart.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

But in any event the Work of the HS will bring a sweet spirit of cooperation and togetherness even in the context of disagreements.

My viewpoint is that it may include compromise, an agreement or settlement, while not lowering any standard, as the jump to is quite often thought of.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

My viewpoint is that it may include compromise, an agreement or settlement, while not lowering any standard, as the jump to is quite often thought of.

Good point, CoAspen. We all started the SDA walk from different starting points; and we all have different issues for the Spirit to deal with. So it follows that we will not have uniform agreement on all matters spiritual, or the relative importance of those matters What does matter is that we all agree on the ultimate mission - to proclaim the Kingdom to the world, conform to the leadings of the Spirit, and seek the coming of Jesus.

While I respect EGW as an inspired writer, I do not view her as the Infallible End-Time Prophet. She did plagarize; although I don't think she did so maliciously. I'm with Pam - she (or the White Estate) were/are being deceptive when they claim that stuff from human sources is from a supernatural messenger. That does not demolish my faith, though.

[whbae]

I am only thinking out loud. Would one need some degree of education to plagiarize some one else's work? If so, did Ellen White have enough education to do it?

[Gail]

I am only thinking out loud. Would one need some degree of education to plagiarize some one else's work? If so, did Ellen White have enough education to do it?

It would need at least a degree of discernment, especially as it involved the health aspect.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

it's my opinion that much of the passages were chosen by her assistants... Ellen White couldn't possibly have read all the articles and books where the various clips came from...