Resources on Answering Atheism?

[Sojourner]

Greetings All,

I am looking for some information on Atheism and how their arguments are countered by Christians and perhaps in this case by SDA apologists. By information its wide open, books, mp3 series, study guides etc.

I would like to put together a study guide on Answering Atheism that could be given as a seminar in a local church or at a study group hosted by a local church and would like to get a guide on what materials are out there that would be of some help. I am interested to know what resources the SDA has on this along with other Christian groups. If you can point me to anything that you have found helpful, it would be much appreciated.

[Bravus]

I wish you all the best with it, I honestly do. Sadly every apologetic argument I have seen so far is very weak indeed.

Perhaps it comes down to a 'sermon in shoes': it wouldn't be anywhere near as *necessary* to debate atheists if there were more 'loving and lovable Christians' in the world walking the talk. Jesus, if raised up, will 'draw everyone unto him'. If not everyone - indeed, hardly anyone - is being drawn, it's necessary to at least as whether what is being held up is really Jesus...

[Gail]

Perhaps it comes down to a 'sermon in shoes': it wouldn't be anywhere near as *necessary* to debate atheists if there were more 'loving and lovable Christians' in the world walking the talk.

I hear ya...

[Gregory Matthews]

I have a basic agreement with what Bravus has posted.

However, as you have asked for something:

NOTE: I will suggest that you will need to go to authors outside of the SDA denomination.

Lee Strobel has written much in this area. You can find information about him and the books that he has written on the Internet. As I have said that I agree with Bravus, Strobel has written material that some people find to be helpful.

You will want to check him out.

Hans Kung, DOES GOD EXIST: AN ANSWER FOR TODAY, translated by Edward Quinn, Doubleday & Company, 1980, 839 pages.

Hans Kung is a controversial theologian. The above book explores the existence of God from the standpoint of Descartes, Karl Marx, Nietzsche, Freud and many others. As such, it is likely that many people will not find it to be helpful. From that standpoint, I am not recommending it. Rather, I am simply pointing out that it is a unique resource that takes an approach that differs from the common approach.

NOTE: Hans Kung is also well known for his book: ON BEING A CHRISTIAN.

The DOES GOD EXIST book is divided into the following sections:

Reason or Faith?

The New Understanding of God.

The Challenge of Atheism.

Nihilism--Consequence of Atheism.

Yes to Reality--Alternative to Nihilism.

Yes to God--Alternative to Atheism.

Yes to the Christin God.

Each of the above is divided into sections, which are then subdivided. In short, this book is extensive and deep.

[JoeMo]

I gotta go with Bravus and Gail on this one. I have no problem relating to pagans. They at least accept the existence of a supernatural realm and the beings in that realm interacting with humanity. I have never been able to relate to a militant (or should I say evangelical) atheist. No matter what argument one uses, it always assumes the existence of a supernatural realm.

Gregory, I've never read the book to which you refer; but I am vaguely familiar with Kuhn. Just by looking at your list, it looks like his argument also assumes a common belief in the supernatural (or extra-dimensional?) realm.

God be with you Sojourner. You are undertaking a challenging project.

[M. T. Cross]

Why do you need to counter them or answer them? You believe what you believe, they believe what they believe. Its really quite simple. Maybe if eveyone just respected the differences then we would all have a lot less grief.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Why do you need to counter them or answer them? You believe what you believe, they believe what they believe. Its really quite simple. Maybe if eveyone just respected the differences then we would all have a lot less grief.

agreed.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Why do you need to counter them or answer them? You believe what you believe, they believe what they believe.

To answer the first question, perhaps it could be that some are concerned enough about where the other is going to spend eternity that they are willing to try in some way to help determine a place revealed with enough evidence to perhaps change the others mind for the purpose of receiving indescribable joy.

Disciples of Jesus have been given a task to accomplish for the sake of those who have not as yet met the Man or who do not have what they feel is enough information that makes a choice to follow Him a seemingly reasonable one.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."John 3:17-19 KJV

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."Mark 16:15,16 KJV

"Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matt 22:8-14 KJV

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Why do you need to counter them or answer them? You believe what you believe, they believe what they believe. Its really quite simple. Maybe if eveyone just respected the differences then we would all have a lot less grief.

Good point. But right or wrong, I am much more comfortable talking to someone like you about spiritual things than I am with an atheist.

[Sojourner]

Why do you need to counter them or answer them? You believe what you believe, they believe what they believe. Its really quite simple. Maybe if eveyone just respected the differences then we would all have a lot less grief.

In a personal sense because two of them are my father and my younger brother and it grieves me that both of them are likely to die this way unless I or someone else convinces them otherwise.

Also for the fact that the Atheist movement in Australia are no slouches at picking off religious people to add to their ranks. We seem to have all the answers for what to say to Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons etc, but when speaking with Atheists we seem to have few resources or answers of any real substance.

I also think that this quote from Charles Spurgeon is a good example of why its important to go after the lost as Christians, to simply not care at all is not in harmony with my own sense of spirituality.

""Have you no wish for others to be Saved?

Then you are not saved yourself,

Be sure of that!"

Charles H. Spurgeon.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think it's fine for Christians to speak to atheists (and pagans) about Christianity.... but not to shove it in their faces...

by and large, atheists love to debate Christianity since it's based nearly 100% on faith and not on scientific facts..

Faith is something that cannot be measured or documented. As such, it really isn't in the vocabulary of atheists. A debate (or even a discussion) between an atheist and a Christian regarding Christianity and one's need for Christ is really a moot issue, and not likely to be fruitful... and Christians generally end up looking foolish -- and (I hate to say it) likely the only redeeming quality of trying to convince an atheist about his need for Christ is to make one feel that s/he has done their Christian duty by posing the debate and telling the person they need Christ.

much better, imho, to live one's life the way one should - and God will direct the opportunities to talk to people about one's beliefs...

(I know my opinion won't be a popular one...)

[debbym]

i agree with you, and feel your comments are very honest and practical.

my response to the christian/atheist debate last time was...

God is big enough to make Himself known, he does not require me to explain Him or prove His existence.

[Gail]

Amen to both of your responses!

In my work customers come into our doors because they are seeking. They have already identified a heartfelt need for improved spirituality. The answers they seek are those that satisfy the heart and minister to their spirit. Try helping them by telling them what they are experiencing doesn't exist!

So in that sense JoeMo has a good point. It is discernible to the one experiencing it but not something that can be displayed or measured to others except in the way it influences the one experiencing it.

That is why I don't bother with those debates or discussions. To me it's like comparing apples and oranges.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

God is big enough to make Himself known, he does not require me to explain Him or prove His existence.

Of course He is. However if you are a Child of God, saved by grace, you know your own relationship (love affair if you please) with/for Him is strengthened spiritually by placing yourself where you are part of His body, doing the work that the body of Christ does, making every effort His Holy Spirit leads you in, to accomplish that which your Father desires for all humanity.

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.

But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matt 10:16-20 KJV

There is no doubt in my mind, not all are called to the same position in carrying the gospel to all the world. And when it is clearly seen that another's lack of friendly response to the unveiling of the Word is paramount, withdrawal by the disciple of Christ would seem to be the better part of wisdom.

As far as requirement, we are all only required to do what we are willingly submissive to.

"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."James 4:6-8 KJV

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me." John 13:20 NASB

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

Why do you need to counter them or answer them? You believe what you believe, they believe what they believe.

To answer the first question, perhaps it could be that some are concerned enough about where the other is going to spend eternity that they are willing to try in some way to help determine a place revealed with enough evidence to perhaps change the others mind for the purpose of receiving indescribable joy.

But other than ONE book - there is zero evidence. There is all told ZERO factual evidence.

Here is the thing. I am not saying that Christians should not try to share their beliefs. But share them with people that want to hear it or people,like myself who signed up here, that have put themselves in a place where it is appropriate. But I think its really important to share with your ears open so to speak. Its possible that if you listen to what the other person is saying you may actually learn something as well. Spirituality is not so cut an dried.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

But other than ONE book - there is zero evidence. There is all told ZERO factual evidence.

Here is the thing. I am not saying that Christians should not try to share their beliefs. But share them with people that want to hear it or people,like myself who signed up here, that have put themselves in a place where it is appropriate. But I think its really important to share with your ears open so to speak. Its possible that if you listen to what the other person is saying you may actually learn something as well. Spirituality is not so cut an dried.

The underlined above makes me believe you haven't read any of the most recent archaeological evidence of the Word, giving indisputable proof of it's accuracy and authenticity.

As to the historicity of Jesus and His time on this earth, this below would give you one man's conclusions, but I have to admit my greatest recognition of the Person of Jesus comes from so many answers to my personal prayers, that for me to place it in the realm of coincidence would be something like refusing to admit my automobile doesn't have a power source above my limited knowledge of its' 30,000 parts, running exceptionally well together to meet my needs, without anyone being behind their necessary purpose.

Quote:

Why the Historical Jesus Matters

by Stephen T. Davis

Suppose one day an astronaut from some far-off galaxy entered my office. Suppose our space traveler was interested in the cultures and religions of the earth, and asked me: "What is this thing called Christianity? Could you tell me please what it is?" I don't know what all I would say in response, but I know what my opening line would be: "Let me tell you about a person whose name is Jesus."

This thought experiment has theological implications. Christian faith begins with Jesus, with stories about who he was and what he did. This is the same impulse that caused the early church, some 30 to 40 years after its founding, to write the Gospels. Christian thinking, worship, and practice must be rightly related to Jesus. If our beliefs and practices are out of touch with the Jesus who actually lived in [Judea and Galilee] centuries ago, Christian faith is in serious trouble. It has no plausible foundation.

Of course the object of Christian faith is not "the historical Jesus," if that means what later theology would call the humanity of Jesus. The object of our faith is the triune God, who is revealed in human history, and especially in the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. The Second Person of the Trinity, the Logos, is not the man Jesus but was incarnate in human history as "the historical Jesus."

http://www.gci.org/jesus/historical

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Perhaps it comes down to a 'sermon in shoes': it wouldn't be anywhere near as *necessary* to debate atheists if there were more 'loving and lovable Christians' in the world walking the talk. Jesus, if raised up, will 'draw everyone unto him'.

I totally agree with the above. Debating with facts will not achieve anything. Christianity is not based on scientific based so why try to debate on that level, doomed to failure!! To me, trying to debate seems to indicate a lack of belief in the 'hoped for but not seen' premise of Christianity.

'We' don't change minds, but rather, who and what we are can open the door to questions about what compels us to believe in a God. Only our daily lives and actions can provide 'evidence' of the possibility.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

Perhaps it comes down to a 'sermon in shoes': it wouldn't be anywhere near as *necessary* to debate atheists if there were more 'loving and lovable Christians' in the world walking the talk. Jesus, if raised up, will 'draw everyone unto him'.

I totally agree with the above. Debating with facts will not achieve anything. Christianity is not based on scientific based so why try to debate on that level, doomed to failure!! To me, trying to debate seems to indicate a lack of belief in the 'hoped for but not seen' premise of Christianity.

'We' don't change minds, but rather, who and what we are can open the door to questions about what compels us to believe in a God. Only our daily lives and actions can provide 'evidence' of the possibility.

I love you a little.

[Gail]

I love you a little.

Aw, come on, MT! They are both very loveable! You can do better than that

Loving the unloveable is more difficult, but totally possible with God's love as motivation.

[Kevin H]

Herman Wouk's "This is my God" is a good book. It is about Judaism and mostly teaching people about Judaism, but there is a section where he is dealing with Atheism.

There are many reasons why people are Atheists. Commonly are that they tend to have something in their lives that makes them worried about meeting their picture as to who God is and instead of wanting to face this god they blot him out of existence.

Often this is trying to deal with things that are merely traditions. One of the things that has caused the most Atheist is the picture of hell. Whether it is the traditional eternal hell, or our Adventist (and other churches) abbreviated version of it where it is still a barbecue and where we take folk and roast them and toast them...

A second is the belief that if they were to accept God that they need to accept the strict 6,000 year old universe. This simply does not make sense. Granted the study here is biased since the scientific community has closed down discussion on the topic, and we have failed in wanting to push our traditions as part of the truth.

The third major issue I've found is that they believe that to accept the belief in God is that you have to become a right wing Republican and spend all your energy over throwing Roe vs. Wade and opposing gay rights and make women second class citizens.

Finally, many have been hurt by zealous believers. I grew up a shut in from church with my loving Grandma. We would go to church from time to time when visiting my mom in NY City and when relatives visited or when we would go out west to visit relatives. On those trips out west I saw two types of Adventists. Some were like my Grandma and Aunts and Uncles. Others (including 2 spouses of relatives) were not enjoyable to be around. They kept quoting Mrs. White and condemning everything and had horrible food. When in the 3rd grade I heard the quote "Suffer the little children to come unto me" I focused on that word "suffer" and thought that it meant that those Adventists who made little children suffer to come unto Jesus were the ones who were right. I tried to become like them until academy and college when I learned some other options about who Jesus was.

Many people are still suffering little children to Jesus. Also, many use the religious exterior but we hear about Priests abusing children, parents who sit like a pillar in church but who are controlling at home if not abusive and cheating.

People deal with a lot of baggage. People are hurt. We are saved by what Jesus does for us, not by the work of having the ability to say what he does for us. Too many people believe that it's Christianity that saves, rather than it being Jesus that saves. The Holy Spirit enlightens everyone pointing them to Jesus, whether they understand those years on earth or not. There are people in all groups, including Atheism, who are living up to the light that they understand and are reaching out.

I understand people to be in four categories: Those with a firm relationship with God how ever they understand God, even if it is some vague thing, but they cling on no matter what. Those who have a relationship with God but not yet developed into a firm one and are still growing. Those who have not yet had a relationship with God but can as they understand more about God, and those who have committed the unpardonable sin.

I do not see witnessing as "I have the truth and I have to save all those sinners so that they don't spend eternity being roasted and toasted" I see it as just sharing what I've found useful. Either others will find it useful or not. To those in the first category it can help them deepen their love for God. Right now we are not with God in person, but if you have two lovers separated they can rest in their love for each other and long to be reunited. Then there are letters, e-mail, Instant Messages, Phone calls and video chats. The more these people can learn about the God they love, the more communication they have.

To those in the second group they may hear something that can help strengthen their relationship with God. To those in the third group they may hear something that would make them consider a relationship with God.

Atheists are not outside of God's love. I read a passage someplace when I was at Andrews in the White Estate. I believe it was something that Mrs. White wrote but I have not been able to locate it since, and it was not like that creation article where the teacher sent us over to read it and it was discussed in class. Thus I will not say that she said this or not. However the passage was about atheists and how the author placed them into two types of atheists. One was the infidels who were in rebellion against God. The others were what the author labeled as "honest doubters" and that the author saw room in heaven for the honest doubters.

Atheists are not on some kind of special relationship with Satan. He wants people to believe that he is Jesus and worship him when he has the counterfeit coming. The disadvantage of being an atheist is that not knowing the Bible, and seeing this obviously supernatural being, they will give up their atheism with the idea of "Seeing is believing" and here is a supernatural being who removes all their doubts.

A big thing that we can do with atheists is simply "Listening Love" and to encourage them that whether or not God exists is not the big question, but if God does exist what kind of God is he and sharing things such as the truth about hell fire, what is Biblical and what is tradition when it comes to creation and what are the issues that they are struggling with in their situation and why they are unbelievers.

[Kevin H]

Another book that is interesting, but too fundamentalist and not always accurate is the book "Prophecy Speaks" also published under "David Dare" by Earle Albert Rowell. Again, it is too fundamentalist. It relies too much on the idea that if only one Bible prophecy was to fail we would have to throw the whole thing out. This is not the case and we can find problems even in it's examples: For example the prophecy about the city to be scraped up and fishermen will put their nets on it. Yes, that was done, but the prophecy said that Nebuchadnezzar was going to do it. Nebuchadnezzar tried but it did not work and a little later the same book that gave that prediction says that it did not work so God was going to give Nebuchadnezzar Egypt instead and the scraping the dirt and fishing nets came later, but not fulfilling the exact letter of the prophecy which predicted that Nebuchadnezzar was going to do it. But it still raises interesting questions.

http://www.adventistbookcenter.com/prophecy-speaks.html

[JoeMo]

I

Quote:

t's possible that if you listen to what the other person is saying you may actually learn something as well. Spirituality is not so cut an dried.

Very well said, M.T. Why would anyone care what I have to say unless I care about what they are saying? I've learned (and unlearned) some amazing things just by listening to others. Frequently, I learn more from free-wheeling non-Christians or non-conventional Christians than I learn from those who are trapped in a single train of spiritual thought; and feel the need to pretend everything is always alright when it's not.

[phkrause]

Excellent post Kevin very much

[M. T. Cross]

Why do you need to counter them or answer them? You believe what you believe, they believe what they believe. Its really quite simple. Maybe if eveyone just respected the differences then we would all have a lot less grief.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

our Adventist (and other churches) abbreviated version of it where it is still a barbecue and where we take folk and roast them and toast them...

Because I know the only Creator God is Love and would never bring upon anyone, unneeded or useless pain, it is not without logic to assume those who have earned the wages of sin and refused the gift of life, for whatever reason, will use whatever gift of life endowed to them to war against the remedy for immortal sinful conduct.

Questioning the decisions of illimitable Wisdom is like cutting off your nose to spite your face, even though His patience in the face of that questioning goes beyond human reasoning.

Quote:

il·lim·it·a·ble

i(l)ˈlimitəbəl/

adjective

adjective: illimitable

without limits or an end.

"the illimitable human capacity for evil"

God is Love! Jesus saves!