JoeMo Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I didn't know where else to put this topic; so Moderators - please feel free to move it to another forum if it's not appropriate here. I'm reading this book called "The Ecstasy of Loving God" by John Crowder. In a chapter called "Trances, Fits, and Enthusiasm", there is a section called "Prophetic Roots of Adventism". It documents the 1844 Great Disappointment; and identifies a prophetess named Ellen G. Harmon who frequently fell into trances and prophesied. It also documents that many other early Adventists - the "radical" side of the Millerite Movement - frequently fell into trances and prophesied during meetings; and how - immediately prior to the Great Disappointment, Millerites would throw themselves on the floor screaming, laughing, and crying; and assuming very distorted body positions. Crowder is a die-heard, tongue-speaking, slain-in-the-Spirit charismatic kind of guy; and he compliments pre- and early Adventist for so earnestly seeking the Lord. In further reading, I discovered a book by Steve Daily PhD called "The Prophetic Rift". In it, he identifies a pre-Millerite Ellen White as a member of a very charismatic and racially integrated (unheard of in pre Civil-War America) branch of Methodism called the "Shouting Methodists". This group was known for its extreme manifestations of loud cries,trembling, fainting, and convulsions that were - needless to say - very disruptive to preaching services. Were EGW's prolific charismatic manifestations (going into trances and prophesying is still a big deal in charismatic circles) in early Adventism a carry-over from her charismatic Shouting Methodist background? I am not questioning her prophetic gift here. I believe the spiritual gift of prophecy is still alive and well in the Body of Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted August 18, 2014 Members Share Posted August 18, 2014 I think Ellen's overt *manifestations* of her early visions/trances were, in part, influenced by the Shouting Methodist form of worship. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aliensanctuary Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 Quote: ...many other early Adventists - the "radical" side ... frequently fell into trances and prophesied during meetings; and...would throw themselves on the floor screaming, laughing, and crying; and assuming very distorted body positions. I always do these things before posting on prophetic themes... It wears me out completely...especially levitating giant Bibles and running up and down the walls and across the ceiling... Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted August 18, 2014 Author Share Posted August 18, 2014 Quote: especially levitating giant Bibles and running up and down the walls and across the ceiling I've heard stories about holding a 100 lb. Bible at arm's length for hours at a time; but the anti-gravity thing would be a novelty. Next time you do that, please post a video! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted August 21, 2014 Moderators Share Posted August 21, 2014 Pam said: Quote: I think Ellen's overt *manifestations* of her early visions/trances were, in part, influenced by the Shouting Methodist form of worship. Historically the above is likely to be true. In modern times we are learning more about what this means. However, this does not mean that everything that is said about this is true. There are fables that have grown up about EGW, her life and ministry. For example, the stories about holding a Bible at arms length are likely to be expanded from what actually happened. Quote Gregory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted August 21, 2014 Author Share Posted August 21, 2014 Quote: For example, the stories about holding a Bible at arms length are likely to be expanded from what actually happened. Agreed. I expanded on it even further by making it a 100lb bible just for the irony. I also agree that not everything we hear and read about EGW (or anyone else, for that matter) is true. That being said, the things I posted from John Crowder and Steve Daily are well documented. Are we as Adventists denying our true destiny by discouraging or even prohibiting manifestations like speaking in tongues, supernatural healing, trances, and prophesying in our churches? Our own prophetess started out involved in these activities. Sojourner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 ...I also agree that not everything we hear and read about EGW (or anyone else, for that matter) is true...Are we as Adventists denying our true destiny by discouraging or even prohibiting manifestations like speaking in tongues, supernatural healing, trances, and prophesying in our churches? Our own prophetess started out involved in these activities. Is it up to us or to the Holy Spirit how we are to act? Some folks put on a great show and make claims that they are manifesting the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Glenn Coon SR once asked something like this, "who's more reverent, the man in his coffin or the weeping bystander?" Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted September 9, 2014 Share Posted September 9, 2014 Quote Are we as Adventists denying our true destiny by discouraging or even prohibiting manifestations like speaking in tongues, supernatural healing, trances, and prophesying in our churches? Our own prophetess started out involved in these activities. This is feel is something we need to be giving much thought at the moment. I had a great discussion with an elder of our local church on the fact that Adventists reject Creeds because we remain open to new revelation. Tongues is perhaps the hardest one to deal with simply because of the diverse theological views on it, mine are that it has to be a real language not babble and that it has to be one at a time and that interpretation has to occur on each occasion. Healing - The Bible is pretty clear that Elders are to annoint the sick with oil and pray for healing. This should always be offered wherever Adventists gather. Prophecy along with Word of Knowledge should be encouraged for the fact that it is a valid spiritual gift exercised openly by Ellen White and other Adventists. There is no reason that it needs to be viewed as historical. Trances - I have reservations about the tales of Ellen White going into Trances. I believe that to be exaggeration. I don't see Scriptural support for any one doing that as a part of a Spiritual Gift. JoeMo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted September 9, 2014 Author Share Posted September 9, 2014 Hey Sojourner, I appreciate your open mind. Concerning your comment about tongues, it is understandable. It is also what I consider to be one of the "lesser" gifts; because it only edifies oneself if there is no one there to interpret - whether it is a real language or not. Concerning trances, their is Biblical evidence. See Acts 10:10, 11:5, and 22.17. I would include under "trances visions and dreams; like Mary's vision of the angel Gabriel, Paul being taken to the 3rd heaven "whether in the body or out of the body", and Daniels' and John's visions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Hi Joe, - I concede that the scriptures you have pointed out, do give evidence of people going into a state that some may describe as a trance like state. Yet on the same reasoning, these are records of incidents that occured, unlike spiritual gifts, there is no real instruction to seek after this type of state of the body. Its probably going off on a tangent here, but I do draw some parallels between the trances described of Ellen White and those described of Edgar Cayce. When Cayce who was a born again Christian also went into these trances, he was able to speak and gave people cures for sicknesses and focused on health advice, it was some while later that he then began giving people information on their past life histories and so forth. All of which when he came out of the trance he had no recollection of. Whilst its not the same period in time, its not far apart either and I suspect that there were cultural reasons why these states were described as they were. Although I cant be sure of that either. In any case following Cayce's experience it does give me cause for concern because it does not appear scriptural. Still having said that, I was a member of a large Pentecostal church for a number of years and experienced slaying in the Spirit where people in cases could be passed out for long periods of time. I recall one case where a young lady was laid out cold at the altar and began to speak in tounges and the chap leading the meeting gave the interpretation and she was prophesying over her own life. It was explained by the visiting Pastor that this was because she was caught up in the Spiritual realm and this was being done by her own spirit as such. JoeMo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 Hey Sojourner, I am currently a part-time member of a charismatic church that used to be SDA. I, too have been slain in the Spirit; and when it happens, I am undone for quite a while. It is always a very unnerving experience because God can get really intense. I don't necessarily seek it; but when it happens, I'm not ungrateful. I consider the "trance" experience just one of the many ways God manifests Himseld by signs and wonders. One supernatural manifestation (trancing, prophesying, miraculous healing or deliverance, glory cloud, aroma of heaven, feathers, jewels, gold dust, etc.) can convert more people than dozens of sermons. Some people might say "that is dangerous satanic stuff". My response is that God loves us and protects us; and I don't think He is mean enough or weak enough to just let satan into someone's heart when they are earnestly seeking communion with God. Sojourner 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted September 12, 2014 Members Share Posted September 12, 2014 Satan can't directly read anyone's mind...but he definitely knows when someone is deliberately "emptying" his/her mind to try and let God "enter".... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 Hey Pam, I don't know whether your post above is positive, negative, or neutral. All I can say is that in my experience with trances that I believe are Holy Spirit inspired rather than demonically inspired, my mind was anything but empty; it was overloaded. I think the overloaded circuits are a main cause of the "stun" effect in a trance encounter (aka "being slain in the Spirit"). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted September 12, 2014 Author Share Posted September 12, 2014 hch, It may be up to the Holy Spirit on how we are supposed to act, but it's up to us on how we actually do act. Yes, some people do fake supernatural manifestations. I pretend to laugh at lame jokes, or clap at mediocre performances - is that wrong? Some people fake spiritual encounters; but some supress them as well in the name of propriety. God will not "force" an experience on you. I would never willingly manifest (like fall out, speak in tongues, or dance around in the back of the church) in a traditional SDA church. But I might in a charismatic church, where it wouldn't be viewed as satanic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted September 12, 2014 Members Share Posted September 12, 2014 Hey Pam, I don't know whether your post above is positive, negative, or neutral. All I can say is that in my experience with trances that I believe are Holy Spirit inspired rather than demonically inspired, my mind was anything but empty; it was overloaded. I think the overloaded circuits are a main cause of the "stun" effect in a trance encounter (aka "being slain in the Spirit"). JoeMo, my comment wasn't supposed to be positive or negative.... it was just a comment about "trances", such as usually done in hypnosis (self- or by a hypnotist).. Trances require a person's mind to be emptied of all thoughts... rather like some meditative states. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted September 13, 2014 Author Share Posted September 13, 2014 Hey Pam, What about Peter's trance, or Paul's being out of the body? Was that because they emptied their minds, or because they were so focused on the Divine that the physical world just faded away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted September 13, 2014 Members Share Posted September 13, 2014 I believe Peter had a vision. I don't believe Paul had an "out of body" experience on the road to Damascus. He didn't die on the road, with his spirit leaving his body. **sigh** Was that because they emptied their minds, or because they were so focused on the Divine that the physical world just faded away? not sure why you want me to pass judgment on the status of anyone... if you feel the words of Peter or Paul on any of their experiences are not to be believed, or have a tinge of evil or untruth, that's problematic for being unsure of all their writings... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 Hey Sojourner, I am currently a part-time member of a charismatic church that used to be SDA. I, too have been slain in the Spirit; and when it happens, I am undone for quite a while. It is always a very unnerving experience because God can get really intense. I don't necessarily seek it; but when it happens, I'm not ungrateful. I consider the "trance" experience just one of the many ways God manifests Himseld by signs and wonders. One supernatural manifestation (trancing, prophesying, miraculous healing or deliverance, glory cloud, aroma of heaven, feathers, jewels, gold dust, etc.) can convert more people than dozens of sermons. Some people might say "that is dangerous satanic stuff". My response is that God loves us and protects us; and I don't think He is mean enough or weak enough to just let satan into someone's heart when they are earnestly seeking communion with God. Sounds like we would probably get along pretty well Joe! I have had some similar experiences to yourself and have not one jot of regret for it, my view is that the time alloted to altar ministry is my favourite part of church meetings where people do business with God in whatever way He wishes to reach them. If I was at another Pentecostal meeting and felt the call to go forward, I would embrace it fully as an SDA, I cant see anything about that that is in conflict with any of my current beliefs. Sadly I have met people who believe that Christians can be possessed and so forth. - Meaning that when someone is born again, what Jesus did on the Cross was not enough and that they need further work in order to be set free. I agree that God does in no way allow His people to be taken like that. In my own case I have gone from Salvation Army, to Pentecostal, back to the Salvation Army and now SDA. My view is that there is no single denominational or non denominational group that has it all perfect and that God uses various groups to preach the Gospel. For what its worth, that is an opinion also held be Ellen White re the remnant being involved in various groups. Yesterday SDA TeleEvangalist Doug Batchelor preached "Surviving the Coming Storm" here in my city in the second largest Pentecostal church in Adelaide, the Christian Family Centre. Three shows were taped for viewing on 3ABN and affiliates. Their Pentecostal denomination the "Christian Revival Crusade" regularly assists the SDA with the use of their facilities for rallies and seminars and so forth. I know their Senior Minister and some of the ministry team there and they are a great bunch of people. If the SDA in Australia can work with a Pentecostal group for evangelism, then I suspect that is not a bad model for others to follow also! JoeMo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aliensanctuary Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I don't really see any charismatic experiences occurring during the time Moses and Israel were wandering in the desert. That system most accurately pictures what the Kingdom of YHVH will be like on Earth, not the wandering part, but the obedience to His commands and regulations and the absence of religion and its practices unrelated to the Kingdom. The religions of today bear little resemblance to the Kingdom of YHVH, including Adventism, historic or present. The ability to speak in unlearned languages demonstrates the power of the Spirit to use human minds when needed, and also points to what will occur when followers of YHVH will stand before rulers and explain the Kingdom to their listeners. The Spirit will tell them what to say with intelligence, perhaps in other languages if needed, not in the mindless babbling of the "tongues" movement. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 Hey Aliensanctuary, I consider a charismatic or pentecostal culture one in which encounters with the divine are are not only welcome, they are sought and expected. I think the plagues on Egypt were charismatic manifestations (although not of the pleasant variety). They certainly persuaded Pharaoh to let God's people go. The parting of the Red Sea was certainly a world-class divine manifestation - something I'm sure would be considered awesome at an ancient charismatic camp meeting. The pillars of fire and cloud in the wilderness were daily divine manifestations of the presence of God; which I would propose fit into the charismatic culture. The appearance of manna, water from a rock, etc. fit way better into charismatic culture than SDA culture. What would happen in a typical SDA Church if a glory cloud appeared in the sanctuary and everyone either was slain in the Spirit or broke out into riotous laughter, tongues, hand-clapping, and loud praise, or if gold dust started falling and/or holy oil started dripping from the ceiling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aliensanctuary Posted September 15, 2014 Share Posted September 15, 2014 I don't picture Messengers of YHVH participating in either charismatic or SDA cultures, and I've attended both types of churches. If a person wants to be a part of either, he has that freedom, but neither represent the Kingdom of YHVH as I see it. Just because someone puts on a big, hand-waving, feet-stomping, praise-the-lord religious show doesn't mean anything except that their religion was created by foolish humans. If YHVH did appear overhead in a brilliant cloud, those below might very well be slain, as in dead. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeMo Posted September 15, 2014 Author Share Posted September 15, 2014 Glory clouds already (allegedly) appears at some churches. here is one example. I don't deny it could have been faked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9eAgjH9cJQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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