Whom did God choose & When were their names written in the Book of Life?

[Samie]

It appears that the CHOOSING was BEFORE the foundation of the world:

Quote:

Ephesians 1:3-4 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Also, God is NOT a respecter of persons:

Quote:

KJV Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

NAS Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.

NIV Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

Before delving into the issues specified in the title of this thread, I suggest that we first tackle this issue: How can there be choosing and yet no partiality?

Thanks for your inputs, forum mates.

[8thdaypriest]

"God so loved the world" - the WHOLE world - all of mankind who would ever exist.

So God is not partial to one man over another - so far as saving him.

While it is true that the LORD revealed Himself to certain men, thus giving them more knowledge - that knowledge increased their responsibility and therefore their guilt if they refused the revealed will of God.

BUT - salvation requires co-operation of man with God.

The man can refuse. He was given FREE WILL, which God will NOT violate.

I think I KNOW where you are going with your thread, but I want to see if you can sustain your argument, because you know that I disagree with you.

I believe that one's name is WRITTEN into the Book of Life WHEN one enters into covenant with the LORD, NOT when one is conceived, or when one is born, or even before - when God foreknew of ones existence.

To God who foreknows - the names of His redeemed are ALREADY written in the Book of Life, but from our perspective the name is not written into the Book until one enters into Covenant. So it depends upon your perspective.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Hi Sis Rachel;

Thanks for your post. Like you I believe there is NO partiality with God. But do you believe, as I do, that we were chosen before the foundation of the world, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say? If Yes, then, did God choose ONLY those whom He foreknew will enter into a covenant relationship with Him, or did He choose Adam & Eve and all their descendants?

[8thdaypriest]

Hi Sis Rachel;

Thanks for your post. Like you I believe there is NO partiality with God. But do you believe, as I do, that we were chosen before the foundation of the world, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say? If Yes, then, did God choose ONLY those whom He foreknew will enter into a covenant relationship with Him, or did He choose Adam & Eve and all their descendants?

God "chose" EVERY human being. EVERY human being was "predestined" to salvation.

But NOT every human being would chose Him in return.

We CAN say "no" to HIM, because HE will NOT force!

"Predestination" does NOT MEAN "destiny without choice".

[8thdaypriest]

Luke 10:20 “Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Why rejoice - if your name was entered into the Book of Life at the moment of your birth, along with every other human being? The presence of your name - in the book - would be nothing special. This is why I believe that our names are entered into The Book of Life when we enter into covenant with God, thru Christ.

Philippians 4:3 “And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.”

Here Paul uses space and ink (very precious in His day) to state that the names of those who labored with him, to spread the gospel “are in The Book of Life.” Why mention that - if everyone's name is written there - even if they are wicked (at least UNTIL they die).

Saying that their names are in The Book of Life, is the same as saying “these belong to Christ.”

[8thdaypriest]

Malachi 3:16-18 “Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, And the LORD listened and heard them; So a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who meditate on His name. ‘They shall be Mine,’ says the LORD of hosts, ‘On the day that I make them My jewels. And I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him. Then you shall again discern between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.’”

Hebrews 12:22-23 [speaking to NT believers] “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, . . .”

Who are registered?

The “firstborn” are “registered in heaven”.

God called Israel His “firstborn” (Exo. 4:22).

How do you become an Israelite? You enter into covenant with God thru Christ, and he will then circumcised your heart (and later your flesh).

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

THE BOOK OF COVENANT

Hebrews 9:19-24 “For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, ‘This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.’"

“Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, [the blood of animals] but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us.” (See Exodus 24:7-8.)

There was a "book of the covenant" on earth.

That "book" was a "copy" of the BOOK in heaven.

The names of everyone who entered into that Covenant were entered into THAT book.

The copy was purified with the blood of calves and goats, but the Book in “heaven itself” is purified with the blood of Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ).

Exodus 32:31-33 “Then Moses returned to the LORD and said, ‘Oh, these people have committed a great sin, and have made for themselves a god of gold! Yet now, if You will, forgive their sin-- but if not, I pray, blot me out of Your book which You have written.’ And the LORD said to Moses, ‘Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.’”

"Your book which You have written" - THIS is the original. The earthly "Book of the Covenant" was the "copy".

The LORD will blot out the names of those who forsake covenant without repentance.

I do not believe that the doctrine of "once saved - always saved" (regardless of future behavior) is taught in the Scriptures.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Hi Sis Rachel;

Thanks for your post. Like you I believe there is NO partiality with God. But do you believe, as I do, that we were chosen before the foundation of the world, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say? If Yes, then, did God choose ONLY those whom He foreknew will enter into a covenant relationship with Him, or did He choose Adam & Eve and all their descendants?

God "chose" EVERY human being. EVERY human being was "predestined" to salvation.

But NOT every human being would chose Him in return.

We CAN say "no" to HIM, because HE will NOT force!

"Predestination" does NOT MEAN "destiny without choice".

[Samie]

"Your book which You have written" - THIS is the original. The earthly "Book of the Covenant" was the "copy".

[Samie]

The righteous are citizens of heaven:

Quote:

NKJ Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

Only those whose names are written in the book of life can enter heaven:

Quote:

NKJ Revelation 21:27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

The above verses seem to indicate that the book of life contains the names of the citizens of heaven and is therefore the registry of the citizens of heaven!

So when were names written in the book of life, the registry of the citizens of heaven?

To answer this question let's take the case of Adam. Was his name written in the book of life BEFORE or AFTER the fall?

[8thdaypriest]

Good point Samie,

I'm willing to grant that the "Book of the Covenant" which Moses read to the people may not have contained names.

But the covenant that they entered in to - was a "blood covenant". You don't think that God kept a record of some sort - of the people who entered in to that covenant?

THE LORD DOES HAVE A BOOK - AND MOSES KNEW OF IT

[Moses to God] "Yet now, if You will, forgive their sin--but if not, I pray, blot me out your Your book which You have written." (Exo 32:33)

Moses understood that his name was written in God's "book" - a book written by the LORD Himself.

Moses anointed "the book" and "all the people" (probably means the leaders). It symbolized that they were entering into a "blood covenant" and would pay with their own blood for breaking covenant.

DAVID

NAS Psalm 69:28 [David] "May they be blotted out of the book of life, And may they not be recorded with the righteous." (Implication: that only the righteous are written in that book.)

NAS Isaiah 4:3 "And it will come about that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy-- everyone who is recorded for life in Jerusalem."

Pairs well with Hebrews 12:22-23. That verse says to me, that only "the firstborn" are "registered in heaven". They are the citizens of the New Jerusalem. Israel WAS called by the LORD, "my firstborn".

My understanding is that you become a citizen of Jerusalem, WHEN you enter into covenant with God thru Christ. You become an Israelite.

Your name will then be retained or blotted out based upon your "works".

Moses did do more than one census - at the direction of the LORD. Was not Moses a type of Christ?

[Samie]

My understanding is that you become a citizen of Jerusalem, WHEN you enter into covenant with God thru Christ. You become an Israelite.

[8thdaypriest]

HIS BODY

Samie said, "When Jesus - the Head - died, we, humanity - His Body - died likewise"

Rachel asks: Where does it say that all of "humanity" is "His Body"?

The church (body of believers) is "His body" - NOT all mankind.

Ephesians 1:22-23 And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. (NRS)

Unbelievers are NOT “His body”. The church - these are the people who have appropriated, by faith, His sacrifice for themselves.

Ephesians 3:6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, (NKJ)

Each one must partake of His promise, before they may be considered part of “the body”.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. (NRS)

We are baptized (water and Spirit) into that "body".

We have two threads going about essentially the same topic.

Maybe we could choose one of the two, to continue our discussion.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Hi Sis Rachel;

I suggest we stick to this thread with our discussion on the writing of names in the book of life.

HIS BODY

Samie said, "When Jesus - the Head - died, we, humanity - His Body - died likewise"

Rachel asks: Where does it say that all of "humanity" is "His Body"?

The church (body of believers) is "His body" - NOT all mankind.

Ephesians 1:22-23 And he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. (NRS)

...

[Samie]

Hi Sis Rachel;

I think you will agree with me that the registry of the citizens of heaven is the Book of Life.

If one's name is not in the Book of Life, then he is not a citizen of heaven and not part of the Body of Christ.

Do you agree with me in the above propositions? If you don't, then could you please explain why?

Thanks.

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

I may not get back to you right away. I need time to think about your questions.

If all sin, for all time - was laid upon Christ, then the debt was PAID IN FULL for all of humanity.

How can the debt - the guilt - the sin, then later be put back on the sinner - if he/she fails to "overcome evil with good"?

I think the answer is revealed in the Tabernacle service.

Sin was confessed over the head of the sin offering.

The "continual" morning and evening sacrifice was also considered a sin offering - for sins of ignorance. It was also considered that this "sin offering" was for all sin of ignorance including that of non-Israelites.

The animal was killed, and it's blood poured out at the base of the alter.

The priest then ATE a part of the sin offering, thus taking the sin into himself, and carryied it into the Tabernacle when he entered there.

On the Day of Atonement, Aaron confessed the sin of all Israel over the head of "the LORD's goat". That goat CARRIED the sin.

The LORD's goat was then killed and it's blood was carried INTO THE MOST HOLY PLACE and sprinkled over the Ark.

The blood "cleansed" the Tabernacle of all the sins which had been "recorded" there.

BUT THEN - Aaron was to come out of the Tabernacle and "lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions - putting them on the head of the goat." "The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited place."

Christ - the sin offering - CARRIED our sin. But He does not CARRY it forever. The sin was finally placed on the "scapegoat", which was banished to "the uninhabited place".

That scapegoat - I believe - represented Satan, who will be found ultimately responsible for all sin.

Heaven does not REMAIN contaminated with sin.

Jesus "BORE our sins" - "carried our sins" (as the lamb)from us to Heaven, and then (as high priest) will carry them from heaven to Satan.

Jesus - and Heaven, do NOT stay contaminated with our sin for ever.

When the sin is put back onto Satan, it is also put BACK onto those who have rejected the gift of Christ and thus belong to Satan.

Remember the parable of the debtor who was "forgiven", who then failed to forgive another man who owed him even less. The King put the whole debt back on the man's head.

[8thdaypriest]

If Christ took ALL of HUMANITY into Himself on the cross - and God counted it as if ALL HUMANITY DIED,

then how is it that some humans will have to DIE AGAIN?

Oh - that's right - it's called the "second death".

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

You seem to believe that human beings CANNOT choose good.

They can only choose evil. They ARE basically evil (carnal).

I AGREE with you on that one, EXCEPT FOR ONE THING. Will get to that later.

Romans 7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh (carnal), sold into slavery under sin." (NRS)

Who SOLD us? Did we "sell" ourselves? Or did Adam sell us? ("As in Adam all die".)

Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (NKJ)

Even believers can still be carnal. Paul called them "babes in Christ".

1 Corinthians 3:1 "And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ." (NKJ)

Paul said his carnal flesh warred against his "mind".

It seems that a human being, WITHOUT the Spirit - IS totally carnal. Basically just an intelligent animal, trying to get what it wants.

You quote John 15:5.

"I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing." (NRS)

I would agree that we cannot "bear fruit" for the Kingdom of God without the infilling of His Spirit.

But where is the ability to CHOOSE.

You seem to be saying that human beings HAVE NO ABILITY TO CHOOSE good. If that is so - then sin is NOT their fault. It is inevitable.

We cannot come to Christ unless drawn to Him.

I grant that.

Jesus said, "I will draw all men to me."

We feel the drawing, but we CAN resist and THAT's a choice.

We are NOT YET Christ's when we feel the drawing of His Spirit.

Jesus said,

Revelation 3:20 "Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me." (NRS)

That CHOICE - to open the door, or to keep it shut - that choice is ours!

God gave us the ability to choose, and He prevents Satan from completely taking away that ability - at least until the Spirit is withdrawn from the earth. Even the demon possessed man made efforts to come into the presence of Christ.

That CHOICE is repeated over and over throughout our lives.

Look at Paul's struggles.

The infilling of His Spirit does NOT mean that we are no longer tempted. We have to CHOOSE the good over and over and over, when evil is presented.

Jesus was filled with the Spirit from the womb. Yet He was tempted, and had to CHOOSE.

The Spirit pleads for a good choice, and then empowers our choice. But the Spirit does NOT choose FOR US.

Acts 7:51 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. (NKJ)

THAT, by the way - is the sin against the Holy Spirit.

It is this struggle to open the door, THAT is the overcoming - overcoming the natural carnal inclination to keep the door shut.

Good deeds just flow from the choice to open the door.

The deeds (fruits) are empowered by the Spirit. The deeds are EVIDENCE of our CHOICE.

In the judgment, it is the deeds which will be the evidence for condemnation, NOT the heart choice which cannot be seen by created beings.

That is BECAUSE humans will be judged by other humans, before sentence is executed.

[8thdaypriest]

The question here is WHEN.

WHEN can a human being respond to the Spirit of God, and CHOOSE to open his heart door?

Billions and billions of unborn fertilized human eggs have never been born.

If a human being can open his heart door (respond to the Spirit) at conception, then unborn children can be saved or lost - and ONLY God would be able to say WHY. That doesn't fit with a judgment based upon deeds which can be seen by other people.

I don't believe that God will ask me to condemn an unborn child based solely on His say-so.

That would leave a lingering doubt as to the justice of God.

[8thdaypriest]

Was every human being written into the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, because Christ would die for all, and would take all sin into Himself?

Is the Book of Life a record of every human that has ever lived?

You Samie, say yes - every name is "in" UNTIL it is "blotted out" by Christ.

OR

Are names written into the Book of Life as each individual opens his/her heart door to Christ, (and demonstrates this by his/her deeds)?

Rachel believes this.

She also believes one can be written in, and then blotted out.

I want to hear more of your reasoning Samie.

[8thdaypriest]

Hi Sis Rachel;

I think you will agree with me that the registry of the citizens of heaven is the Book of Life.

If one's name is not in the Book of Life, then he is not a citizen of heaven and not part of the Body of Christ.

Do you agree with me in the above propositions? If you don't, then could you please explain why?

Thanks.

Yes - I believe "The Book" contains the names of those promised citizenship in the New Jerusalem. But anciently, citizens could be "cut off" from Israel. Their present "citizenship" did not guarantee their passage into the "promised land".

[JoeMo]

Quote:

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.(Rev. 13:8)

Also see Rev.17:8; 20:15; and 21:27

From these verses, I can easily infer that that not everyone's name was originally written in the Book of life.

[8thdaypriest]

BOOK OF LIFE - CITIZENS OF ISRAEL-CITIZENS OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Acts 15:14 “Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.” (NKJ)

God took them OUT of the general population of ALL human beings.

The Holy City has 12 gates. There is no gate labeled “Gentiles Enter Here”.

Every citizen must be an Israelite.

Is everyone BORN an Israelite?

I would say - NO.

How does one BECOME an Israelite?

He must be circumcised.

AND

He must also remain faithful to THAT covenant.

Now - infants - 8 days old - WERE circumcised, and became citizens of Israel, because their parents were citizens, and chose to have them circumcised.

THAT makes me wonder whether the names of infants - when they are 8 days old - may be written into The Book.

But of course, that was the type - the symbolic prophecy.

Christ is the One who is circumcising our hearts. That is a process still ongoing.

He is also the One who will circumcise our flesh - when we are “changed in a moment” at the Second Coming/resurrection.

It makes me wonder if NONE of us are really fully circumcised UNTIL “the 8th day” - which in my understanding, will be the 8th millennium. That is WHEN the last traces of sin are consumed in the “lake of fire” and the redeemed can be finally healed of the effects of sin upon their minds.

[Samie]

Was every human being written into the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, because Christ would die for all, and would take all sin into Himself?

Is the Book of Life a record of every human that has ever lived?

You Samie, say yes - every name is "in" UNTIL it is "blotted out" by Christ.

OR

Are names written into the Book of Life as each individual opens his/her heart door to Christ, (and demonstrates this by his/her deeds)?

Rachel believes this.

She also believes one can be written in, and then blotted out.

I want to hear more of your reasoning Samie.

Hi Sis Rachel;

I believe the Book of Life contains the names of all who were chosen before the foundation of the world UNTIL names of non-overcomers are blotted out at death. Contingent upon the death of Jesus - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world - Who on the cross attached us all to His Body, our names were written in Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Scriptures CLEARLY tell us that those whose names are not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15); while those whose names are in it can enter heaven (Rev 21:27).

The proposition that our names are already in the book of life before birth is coherent with grace-based salvation. Attached to the Body of Christ with our names already in the book of life, we don't work our way to heaven because we are already heaven-bound. This also means that anybody dieing before the age of reason is sure of heaven, in harmony with Jesus' words that little children are heaven-bound (Matt 19:14).

On the other hand, the proposition that we become part of the Body of Christ and that our names are only written in the Book of Life AFTER some sort of human participation which man has to put in first, smells of works-based salvation. This also means that anybody dieing before the age of reason CANNOT enter heaven, because, their names are not yet written in the Book of Life. This is against Jesus' words that little children are heaven-bound (Matt 19:14). This also means that while SEPARATE from Christ man can do SOMETHING to be attached to Him. This also against Christ's words that APART from Him, man can do NOTHING (John 15:5).

The fact that our names are in the book of life, does not mean we have no choice to make because Scriptures enjoin us to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Confronted with the opportunity to do evil, we choose what to do: the evil or the good? If we choose to do evil, that proves we were overcome of evil instead of us overcoming it with good. But that is not the end of the battle yet. We can still overcome, being yet alive. One's name is NOT blotted out from the book of life while he is alive. Attached to Christ Who is our Strength to do good, we have His power to overcome evil with good.

If a person is found to be a non-overcomer when he dies, his name will be blotted out from the book of life, dismembered from the Body of Christ. He has no one else to blame but himself for it is not a question of INABILITY but one of REFUSAL to overcome evil with good.

[Samie]

Quote:

All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.(Rev. 13:8)

Also see Rev.17:8; 20:15; and 21:27

From these verses, I can easily infer that that not everyone's name was originally written in the Book of life.