"But the Twelve Apostles Were All Male"

[Tom Wetmore]

http://juniaproject.com/but-twelve-apostles-all-male/

[CoAspen]

Nice article.

[Kevin H]

Good article. However there are a few other points that I wish it included: The 12 full time disciples would have had 24 hour access to their rabbi and thus needed to be of the same sex. The first time the word "Apostle" was used was when Jesus told her to "Apostle the disciples and Peter." (the critics argue that this is given as a verb rather than a noun). An apostle was one who had studied with Jesus and was a witness of his resurrection and thus sent out to testify of what they learned from him and that they were witnesses to his resurrection. As stated among the 70 there could have well been women.

 

Also, the issue of Women's Ordination was a hot topic in Jesus' day, with the liberals opposed to it and saying that Judaism should STOP ordaining women and stop making women's garments with the blue thread in them and limit the blue thread to male garments. The conservatives did ordain women and there have been found lists of Archsynogogists that included women's names. This is an interesting study and we need to ask "Did Jesus say or do anything that indicated his stand on this hot topic in his day?" (and yes he did but because we don't know the culture we read the passage and it goes over our heads with out noticing.)

[Johann]

There are a number of references in the writings of Ellen White on the humanity of Christ where she makes it clear that Jesus had to appear like a person of the current Jewish society. The people had to recognize him as one of them before they could see that He was also divine.

[Tom Wetmore]

While giving this article a quick reread a thought occurred to me.  It was triggered by the reference to Judas.  Men's failure.  Even among those chosen.  Then it hit me.  The story of the history of God's people as recorded throughout Scripture is littered with the failures of men in leadership.  Failure of those chosen for leadership with God's blessing, in spite of his blessing.  Failure that nearly destroyed God's people, that thwarted God's leading.  Repeatedly.  

 

Yet throughout that same history there are stories of a few good women.  Most all of them rose above obstacles and opposition and the strong and harsh patriarchal culture to a challenge to do a special God ordained task and yes, even leadership under God's blessing.  But how many failed?  Compare their stories with those of the men.  I think it is not unreasonable to conclude that when God called women, they were less likely to fail and remain faithful to their calling from God than the men.

 

Some would tell us these were just exceptions to God's plan that He allowed for unusual circumstances and not a clear enough mandate to allow women in leadership and ministry unless their are special ciucmstnace where men are not available.  Ellen White is included in that.  But maybe God is trying to quietly remind of us of a truth that when He chooses a woman it is a good idea.  It has his blessing.  Women can succeed where men may fail.  Their examples should tell us something.  When will we get that message?

[Johann]

Luke tells us that not only the twelve followed Jesus through the villages but "also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; ³ Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means."  Luke 8:2. 3.

[Tom Wetmore]

It was a woman of those that followed him that was the first to preach the good news of a risen Savior.   That story of Mary was a frequently repeated theme to affirm and defend women preaching from the pulpit in the early days of the Adve twist Church.

[Johann]

Should we not be in accord with the early Advent believers who still had confidence in the Spirit of Propecy?

[Kevin H]

Back when I was at Andrews I would spend hours in the White estate vault reading. I read a number of letters to some pastors who quoted her a lot, but she complained that despite their massive quoting of her words that they missed her message. That they were developing their own message and using her words as proof and authority. While she did not have these people leave the church she and Willie were very unhappy with them. They and their followers came up with excuses on why they were quoting her correctly and how Mrs. White's criticisms of how they were using her were wrong.

The followers of these pastors have developed their own subgroup in the church. Much of what they say is good, and I like having them around to share things that the rest of us may end up over looking. However they have a tendency to latch on part of the message and see it as the whole message and to use their part against the rest of the message. They tend to either be people who are very powerful wanting others to strictly follow them, or else are very passive wanting to be told just want to do and have chosen to follow these leaders. They tend to be passionate and thus attract people looking for a deeper experience. I love to listen to what they have to say, but with a critical ear, especially after reading the letters between them and Mrs. White and Willie White and some of the things that their followers were saying.

I've noticed that a large number of those who are opposing women's ordination are the current generation of continuing the message and method of these pastors. (although I have reason to think that if these pastors were alive today they could well have been supporters of women's ordination since they were staunch Wesleyans and these people today have to latch on to a Calvinistic idea to develop their anti-ordination position.)

They claim to be Mrs. White's strongest defenders, however these pastors had trouble with her views of 1888 and thereafter, Her views of inspiration were different from theirs, and they had trouble with her views on how she wanted to be used and how she did not want to be used.

We tend to see Mrs. White's prophecy as to making no effect the spirit of prophecy: We have tended to see it as people not believing in her works. I have also believed that it would be things such as the Walter Rea issue where they hold one view of inspiration and because Mrs. White and the Bible does not meet their standard that they give up on them. But I am also feeling impressed that there is a third way. A way we all must be careful of. That we become like these pastors who loved to quote Mrs. White and to emphasize that she was a prophet and thus that her message came from God, but to only latch on portions of the message and miss the forest for the trees and push our versions at the expense of the whole message.

An additional danger I see when it comes with "Headship" theology is that Mrs. White has told us about what she saw as important in her message. We find it in the 3 aspects of the trinity, and the law of self sacrificing love, the mutual submission of the trinity to the other members of the trinity. The three lies that Satan has developed on how God does not keep his own law but expects everyone else to keep it and if we break it then God can't be both just and merciful but has to be only one or the other. If just he will get you and punish you if merciful he has to do away with the law. If you accept headship theology you just deboned Mrs. White's system and you have a massive collection of words that you can self tailor. You have an aspect of God who does not keep God's law of self sacrificing love, self renouncing love, but who is a tyrant (granted they see him as a good tyrant) who simply demands submission to him.  And the Adventist understanding of the law has just been thrown out the window.

[Johann]

My experience through the years, both as a student at our colleges and university, and as a pastor and Bible teacher for more than 40 years, is very similar to what Kevin is telling us in this post. I wish many would read it and understand it. I plan on copying and printing this sharing it with many, unless you object to it, Kevin. It is about time our church members learn basic Adventism and not modern imperfect version of it.