Are Daniel 2 & 7 relevant today?

[hch]

The moderators have been so gracious to me when I have strayed from topic linking prophecy fulfilled to various semi-related topics. But now that I realize I was annoying people, it is time to repent, mend my ways, and be more focused on the topic under discussion.

 

1) What is Daniel 2 really about?

a) Ancient kingdoms?

Ancient kings?

c) Endtime events?

d) Christ's Second Coming?

e) Christ's Third Coming?

 

2) Is Daniel 7 an expanded explanation of chapter 2?

 

Some may feel the need to rehash the historical SDA view of Daniel 2 and 7.

However, I suspect that most folks on an SDA based forum understand the basics.

 

For the record "I believe the historical SDA view of Daniel 2 & 7."

But based on 20-years of extensive Bible study and Spirit of Prophecy study, I know that there is more to Daniel 2 & 7 than we present in current SDA literature.

 

 

 

[hch]

...Based on 20-years of extensive Bible study and Spirit of Prophecy study, I know that there is more to Daniel 2 & 7 than we present in current SDA literature.

 

I may be alone in that point of view. Let's see what the poll shows.

[JoeMo]

hch,

For some reason, the system won't let me "like" your most recent post. I agree with you that there is more - much more - to Daniel 2 and 7 than meets the "official" eye of the church. There are applications of prophecy, which IMO is the current SDA view; and there is an ultimate fulfillment, which in the case of denieal 2 and 7, is yet in the future.

[hch]

hch,

For some reason, the system won't let me "like" your most recent post. I agree with you that there is more - much more - to Daniel 2 and 7 than meets the "official" eye of the church. There are applications of prophecy, which IMO is the current SDA view; and there is an ultimate fulfillment, which in the case of denieal 2 and 7, is yet in the future.

 

In Danie 2 the king personally is the head of gold in the local application.

 

There seems to be some bugs in the features. They would not let be do stuff, then they started working just fine.

 

Christian regards

[hch]

Great EGW quote: "We should not take the testimony of anyone as to what the Scriptures teach, but we should study God’s words for ourselves. If we allow others to do our thinking for us, we shall have crippled energies and contracted abilities. Our mind’s noble powers may be so dwarfed by lack of exercise on themes worthy of our concentration that we may lose our ability to grasp the deep meaning of the word of God. Our mind will enlarge if it is employed in tracing out the relationships of the subjects of the Bible by comparing scripture with scripture and spiritual things with spiritual things." Steps to Christ

[LifeHiscost]

But based on 20-years of extensive Bible study and Spirit of Prophecy study, I know that there is more to Daniel 2 & 7 than we present in current SDA literature.

 

Truth is always unfolding but is never inconsistent with Truth unfolded. Since we have already been revealed the events leading up to and revealing the second coming of Jesus, what Truths might be new to those who are prepared,  according to the Word, to meet Him when He comes?

 

2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8But since we are of the day, let us be sober...! Thess 4:2-8

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[hch]

Truth is always unfolding but is never inconsistent with Truth unfolded. Since we have already been revealed the events leading up to and revealing the second coming of Jesus, what Truths might be new to those who are prepared,  according to the Word, to meet Him when He comes? ...

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

 

Hey LifeHiscost,

 

you wrote "Truth is always unfolding but is never inconsistent with Truth unfolded."

 

A great  example comes to mind:

 

Ge 17:10  This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Ge 17:11  And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

Ge 17:12  And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Ge 17:13  He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Ge 17:14  And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

 

Paul taught pretty much of that which his accusers said:

Ac 21:21  And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

 

My point: circumcision was a perpetual statute and Paul taught that it was not necessary in the Christian dispensation

(it  was done away).

 

Was the Truth about circumcision inconsistent with Truth that had been unfolded?

Abraham was told that it was to be forever

Paul said not any more.

 

Paul did not see any inconsistency with his teachings and the law.

But the pro-circumcision party had a problem with

"Truth is always unfolding but is never inconsistent with Truth unfolded."

They claimed an inconsistency in Paul's teaching.

 

Is it possible that as truth unfolds, some people today will see it as being inconsistent with their understanding as the pro-circumcision party in Paul's day?

 

Your answer will impact your question "Since we have already been revealed the events leading up to and revealing the second coming of Jesus, what Truths might be new to those who are prepared,  according to the Word, to meet Him when He comes?"

[LifeHiscost]

Hey LifeHiscost,

 

you wrote "Truth is always unfolding but is never inconsistent with Truth unfolded."

 

A great  example comes to mind:

 

Is it possible that as truth unfolds, some people today will see it as being inconsistent with their understanding as the pro-circumcision party in Paul's day?

 

Your answer will impact your question "Since we have already been revealed the events leading up to and revealing the second coming of Jesus, what Truths might be new to those who are prepared,  according to the Word, to meet Him when He comes?"

On this dying world there have been given instructions as an antitypical truth in the new earth or the kingdom to come. That doesn't necessarily mean there are other instructions for the here and now that I've missed that have no place in the Kingdom to come for spiritual satisfaction. However knowing God to "change not", I would find it highly unusual.

 

…28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. Rom 2

 

3For thus says the LORD to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem, "Break up your fallow ground, And do not sow among thorns. 4"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD And remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Or else My wrath will go forth like fire And burn with none to quench it, Because of the evil of your deeds." Jeremiah 4

 

This might also be seen as typical of the 7th millennium Sabbath of a thousand years that will suffice to make up for the 7th Day Sabbaths that have not been observed properly as a whole since the fall of Adam and Eve.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[hch]

On this dying world there have been given instructions as an antitypical truth in the new earth or the kingdom to come. That doesn't necessarily mean there are other instructions for the here and now that I've missed that have no place in the Kingdom to come for spiritual satisfaction. However knowing God to "change not", I would find it highly unusual.

 

…28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. Rom 2

 

3For thus says the LORD to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem, "Break up your fallow ground, And do not sow among thorns. 4"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD And remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Or else My wrath will go forth like fire And burn with none to quench it, Because of the evil of your deeds." Jeremiah 4

 

This might also be seen as typical of the 7th millennium Sabbath of a thousand years that will suffice to make up for the 7th Day Sabbaths that have not been observed properly as a whole since the fall of Adam and Eve.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

 

Hey LifeHiscost,

 

So how doe your comment above validate the position that I responded to with the circumcision example:

"Truth is always unfolding but is never inconsistent with Truth unfolded. Since we have already been revealed the events leading up to and revealing the second coming of Jesus, what Truths might be new to those who are prepared,  according to the Word, to meet Him when He comes?"

 

My example regarding circumcision showed how unfolded truth appeared to contradict unfolding truth.

 

Thus your response regarding circumcision, though interesting, muddied the conversation about Daniel 2 & 7 rather than advancing it.

 

If you have something to contribute to an understanding of Daniel 2 or 7, I for one would like to hear it.

 

Christian regards,

[hch]

HCH

 

I picked #  1  or Letter  A

 

dgrimm60

 

dgrimm60,

 

Thus far you are in the majority. but the title of this thread has not been catchy enough to generate much interest.

Maybe a more sophisticated approach is called for?

 

Christian Regards

[LifeHiscost]

Hey LifeHiscost,

 

So how doe your comment above validate the position that I responded to with the circumcision example:

"Truth is always unfolding but is never inconsistent with Truth unfolded. Since we have already been revealed the events leading up to and revealing the second coming of Jesus, what Truths might be new to those who are prepared,  according to the Word, to meet Him when He comes?"

 

My example regarding circumcision showed how unfolded truth appeared to contradict unfolding truth.

 

Thus your response regarding circumcision, though interesting, muddied the conversation about Daniel 2 & 7 rather than advancing it.

 

If you have something to contribute to an understanding of Daniel 2 or 7, I for one would like to hear it.

 

Christian regards,

3For thus says the LORD to the men of Judah and to Jerusalem, "Break up your fallow ground, And do not sow among thorns. 4"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD And remove the foreskins of your heart, Men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem... Jeremiah  4

 

28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

If one cannot see the spiritual significance for the promises given, in order to clear up the waters re: inconsistency, no further evidence from me would be of any help. My choices are 1: a, c,d, e. 2: yes!

Keep looking up!

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[hch]

 

If one cannot see the spiritual significance for the promises given, in order to clear up the waters re: inconsistency, no further evidence from me would be of any help. My choices are 1: a, c,d, e. 2: yes!

Keep looking up!

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

 

So you disagree with Ancient kings? How about endtime kings/rulers?

 

What of Heavens interpretation?

 

2:44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:"

 

7:17 "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

 

And there is EGW

 

“Daniel’s interpretation was to be rejected and forgotten; truth was to be misinterpreted and misapplied. The symbol designed of Heaven to unfold to the minds of men important events of the future, was to be used to hinder the spread of the knowledge that God desired the world to receive… Truth unmixed with error is a power mighty to save; but that when used to exalt self and to further the projects of men, it becomes a power for evil." (PK 505.1)

 

“These predictions of the Infinite One, recorded on the prophetic page and traced on the pages of history, were given to demonstrate that God is the ruling power in the affairs of this world. He changes the times and the seasons, He removes kings and sets up kings, to fulfill His own purpose. . . ." (1MR 49.2)

[LifeHiscost]

So you disagree with Ancient kings? How about endtime kings/rulers?

 

What of Heavens interpretation?

 

2:44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:"

 

7:17 "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

 

And there is EGW

 

“Daniel’s interpretation was to be rejected and forgotten; truth was to be misinterpreted and misapplied. The symbol designed of Heaven to unfold to the minds of men important events of the future, was to be used to hinder the spread of the knowledge that God desired the world to receive… Truth unmixed with error is a power mighty to save; but that when used to exalt self and to further the projects of men, it becomes a power for evil." (PK 505.1)

 

“These predictions of the Infinite One, recorded on the prophetic page and traced on the pages of history, were given to demonstrate that God is the ruling power in the affairs of this world. He changes the times and the seasons, He removes kings and sets up kings, to fulfill His own purpose. . . ." (1MR 49.2)

Your references to the SoP and the Word were refreshing. I just don't feel it useful to follow conversations that see their most useful aspect as disproving another's points of religious conviction.

 

…11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. 12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." 13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?…

 

Matthew 23:8

"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.

 

I prefer to let the Holy Spirit convict the heart and I just sow the seed as I strive to follow His leading. "Muddied waters", so to speak, are only cleared up by the blood of Jesus.

 

17Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,… Phill 3

 

I desire not to fall into the error of forcing another's  conscientious conclusions.

 

God is Love!Jesus saves!

[hch]

Your references to the SoP and the Word were refreshing. I just don't feel it useful to follow conversations that see their most useful aspect as disproving another's points of religious conviction.

 

…11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. 12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." 13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?…

 

Matthew 23:8

"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers.

 

I prefer to let the Holy Spirit convict the heart and I just sow the seed as I strive to follow His leading. "Muddied waters", so to speak, are only cleared up by the blood of Jesus.

 

17Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,… Phill 3

 

I desire not to fall into the error of forcing another's  conscientious conclusions.

 

God is Love!Jesus saves!

 

Disprove? Never. Confirm! and expand.

We err if we do not present the evidence.

There is no command to leave the mote in our brother's eye.

 

Mt 7:5  "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye."

 

The Holy Spirit convicts.

 

Heb 4:12 " For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

[LifeHiscost]

Confirm! and expand.[unquote]

 

That's what I said.

 

 

Truth is always unfolding but is never inconsistent with Truth unfolded.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[hch]

 

[Guest DennisKean]

Thus King Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty was the local application in Daniel's day

Beginning with the head of gold (King Nebuchadnezzar) the thou in Thou art this head of gold.

 

The kingdoms from Babylon to papal Rome were the kingdoms that expanded and

brought the prophecy from Nebuchadnezzar to the endtime

 

And the 4-kings from the earth in the endtime that live when Christ comes expand the visions and are the final fulfillment

 

Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a Malkuw, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these Ma, and it shall stand for ever."

 

Daniel 7:17 "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

 

But not everyone will believe a thus saith the Lord. The partial fulfillment has been allowed to obscure the endtime meaning.

 

“Daniel is standing in his lot and in his place. The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which everyone should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves.” (7BC 949.6)

 

“The things of this world are about to close... We can see the waymarks that are all along the way... If our minds are active and so consecrated to God that we can understand His workings, we can know just where we are in this world’s history... ” (2SAT 48.5)

 

“Daniel’s interpretation was to be rejected and forgotten; truth was to be misinterpreted and misapplied. The symbol designed of Heaven to unfold to the minds of men important events of the future, was to be used to hinder the spread of the knowledge that God desired the world to receive… Truth unmixed with error is a power mighty to save; but that when used to exalt self and to further the projects of men, it becomes a power for evil.” (PK 505.1)

 

“These predictions of the Infinite One, recorded on the prophetic page and traced on the pages of history, were given to demonstrate that God is the ruling power in the affairs of this world. He changes the times and the seasons, He removes kings and sets up kings, to fulfill His own purpose.” (YI)

 

In regards to the 4 kingdoms going down to the end of time, please mote that the Roman Empire collapsed a second time in 1798.  Afterward a 5th empire rose and continued in its footsteps replacing and displacing Rome so thoroughly that Rome has no chance of ever recovering again.  And that is exactly what Daniel chapter 7 said would happen.  Let's read what was to befall the 4th beast or the Roman Empire...

• Dan 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
• Dan 7:26  But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

   

The judgement spoken of was the Investigative Judgment.  Whether you place that in 1798 or 1844 it matters not.  The fact is that Rome lost its dominion in 1798 AD and the prophecy further tells us that this condition of a lost dominion is to continue consuming Rome until it is destroyed in the end.   Did this take place!  It sure did.  Europe never rose again as a contender for world domination.  America rose to power well beyond the greatest glory of Rome.  And America is not one of the 4 beasts.  America is the 5th beast meant to succeede the 4 fallen empires.  Also Russia rose to power in a way to far excell Rome .  And so did China.  Europe is now a minuscule voice among the nations.  And if not for America, it would collapse into oblivion with the nations which surround it. 

The point I am trying to make is that the prophecy about the 4 kingdoms is not as Uriah Smith has presented it.  I love that man, but he made many guesses with things beyond his date.   They did not come true.  It was not his to discover future events.  And we are close to 150 years beyond his time.  It behooves us to start thinking for ourselves on this topic.  The 4 kiingdoms do not stretch in full power until the end of time as Uriah conjectured it would.  Europe is a squeeky voice speaking like a sick chehuahua... ever ready to disintegrate at the drop of a hat.  It is time to review both Daniel chapters 2 and 7 carefully.

 

 

Dennis

[hch]

In regards to the 4 kingdoms going down to the end of time, please note that the Roman Empire collapsed a second time in 1798.  Afterward a 5th empire rose and continued in its footsteps replacing and displacing Rome so thoroughly that Rome has no chance of ever recovering again.  And that is exactly what Daniel chapter 7 said would happen.  Let's read what was to befall the 4th beast or the Roman Empire...

• Dan 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
• Dan 7:26  But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

   

The judgement spoken of was the Investigative Judgment.  Whether you place that in 1798 or 1844 it matters not.  The fact is that Rome lost its dominion in 1798 AD and the prophecy further tells us that this condition of a lost dominion is to continue consuming Rome until it is destroyed in the end.   Did this take place!  It sure did.  Europe never rose again as a contender for world domination.  America rose to power well beyond the greatest glory of Rome.  And America is not one of the 4 beasts.  America is the 5th beast meant to succeede the 4 fallen empires.  Also Russia rose to power in a way to far excell Rome .  And so did China.  Europe is now a minuscule voice among the nations.  And if not for America, it would collapse into oblivion with the nations which surround it. 

The point I am trying to make is that the prophecy about the 4 kingdoms is not as Uriah Smith has presented it.  I love that man, but he made many guesses with things beyond his date.   They did not come true.  It was not his to discover future events.  And we are close to 150 years beyond his time.  It behooves us to start thinking for ourselves on this topic.  The 4 kiingdoms do not stretch in full power until the end of time as Uriah conjectured it would.  Europe is a squeeky voice speaking like a sick chehuahua... ever ready to disintegrate at the drop of a hat.  It is time to review both Daniel chapters 2 and 7 carefully.

 

 

Dennis

 

Dennis,

 How does Daniel 7:17 fit into the scenario that you propose?

 

Daniel 7:17  "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

 

Daniel 7:2-3 calls them sea-beasts

 

The kingdoms did seal the authenticity of the vision.

 

But in Heavens interpretation that was to be sealed until the time of the end post-1844 (12:4 & 9)

they are cited as "kings, which shall arise out of the earth" (7:17)

 

And that echoes 2:44 

 

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

His child

 

[Guest DennisKean]

Dennis,

 How does Daniel 7:17 fit into the scenario that you propose?

 

Daniel 7:17  "These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

 

Daniel 7:2-3 calls them sea-beasts

 

The kingdoms did seal the authenticity of the vision.

 

But in Heavens interpretation that was to be sealed until the time of the end post-1844 (12:4 & 9)

they are cited as "kings, which shall arise out of the earth" (7:17)

 

And that echoes 2:44 

 

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

His child

 

Hi Hch,

 

Glad you asked, because that complex seems to be confusing to many.  Daniel verse 7:17 is in Hebrew and the term "arise" cannot be compared to Revelation 13:1 where it says that the beast will "CLIMB UP" out of the sea.  It is not the same discussion about the beasts.  Daniel 7:17 really says that these 4 beasts will ESTABLISH themselves or that God has APPOINTED them this role.  Whatever you choose is good enough for me.  When it comes to reading prophecies and getting the flavor of the word we cannot use the interpreted version in the English language.  If we do that, then we must conclude that Daniel contradicts himself in that chapter.  In verse 2 Daniel clearly says that the beasts "came up" (H5559) from the sea and later he says that they arose (H6966) from the earth.  So, King James team once again botched things up.  They should have interpreted it as "which shall establish (tehmselves) upon the earth".

 

So, these 4 beasts are said to have come up out of the water and established themselves upon the earth.  Therefore the "heaven's" interpretation is correct.  No problems there.

Now, here is an important point.  You said "But in Heavens interpretation that was to be sealed until the time of the end post-1844 (12:4 & 9)"

 

But you conveniently skipped verse 7.  Why?  Because that verse does not fit in Uraiah Smith's interpretation.  And it behooves us to question this with careful study. 

(Don't get the idea that I dislike Uriah Smith.  I am in awe of his monumental work of putting together ideas of many Christians up to his day in a very orderly manner.  The problems he had dealt with prophecies future to his time.  And there is a good reason for that.)

 

So let's see what we missed by skipping over Dan 12:6-7:

 

Dan 12:6  And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

Dan 12:7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

Primitive Christianity was nearly extinguished by the end of the Dark Ages.  But God saw fit to preserve it and immediately after 1798 Christianity bloomed!  Bibles began to be printed, preachers preached and conversions were taking place every place.  The Gospel circled the globe.  It can no longer be said that God's people are scattered today...  These things were finished in 1798 AD as the prophecy said it would be at the end of "time times and a half".  In effect, the angel swore by Him who lives forever that the Dark Ages would end.  And God is not a liar.  He kept His promise.  Chapter 11:1-45 of Daniel was fulfilled in its entirety to the letter without a single phrase being amiss by the year 1798. 

 

By the way, that is the very reason that we Adventists go in all directions on the prophecies from Daniel 11:40-45.  The very first word in 11:40 is misinterpreted and we are completely lost ast to what to do with that segment of prophecy.  We have myriad explanations within our denomination.  Every time there is a world event, wannabe prophets are spelling out their newest guesses.  It is the Arabs... no it is the Russians, no it is Aliens...  Heaven help us... 

But rather than get into that discussion and confuse everyone, let me point you to an important precedent, which may help you figure this out on your own.

 

In Daniel we see that Daniel has a vision and he turns to the angel for an explanation.  The angel accomodates Daniel and gives him an explanation.  But then he steps back and focuses on the latter part of his explanation, zooming in on the 4th beast.  That reprise is of special interest.  It is a precedent to remember and think about.  In sum, let me list the various parts of chapter 7 as follows:

1. (Dan:1-14)  Daniel discusses what he saw in vision and wonders
2. (Dan:17-18) The angel recaps the vision with some supplementary details
3. (Dan:19-22)  Daniel asks for more detail about the 4th beast
4. (Dan: 23-27)  The angel zooms in on the 4th beast

This modality of recapping details, from a latter point of the vision or original prophecy, is present in Daniel chapters 11-12 as well...  To think of those two chapters as a linear prophecy only going forward is to lead to confusion.  The simple fact that Chapter 12 returns to the time times and a half is proof of a fold taking place in the long explanation.  This is irrefutable.  It behooves us to rethink those two chapters carefully.   Try to find the folds on your own and how many folds there are and it will speak for itself. 

Now, the crowning jewel, which you so aptly have positioned to present your position Uhu...   

 

Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings

 

The days of those kings were no longer their days, the way that we SDA try to fit them.  The 5th beast has already begun to rule instead of the 4th beast.  The reign of the 4th beast is over with, if we look at history and Daniel's comment.

 

Dan 7:26  But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

 

The Judgement did sit as early as 1798 AD (in my view) and Rome's dominion was taken away.  As early as July 4, 1776 a young nation was rising out of the earth!  Since 1798 the Roman Empire dissolved into a "has been Empire" Historians call it the 2nd Fall of Rome.  In our SDA circle those days have been clamored as the end times by many of us. Today, however, we see that this does not seem to apply correctly.  And we are trying to make it fit. But the confusion is still there.

 

Here is the reason for the confusion...

 

Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:

 

The part in red is what people misunderstand when they read this verse.  They forget the important details expressed in verse 35.

 

Dan 2:34  Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Dan 2:35  Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 

 

The Savior came and set up His kingdom and that kingdom grew and grew and today Christianity is the largest of the mountains. 

The key to understanding most of the old prophecies lies in the "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom", a time when the 10 nations were 10 in number.

 

So, after the Dark Ages, another beast came to rule instead of the 4th beast.  The 10 nations, by that time, PROPHETICALLY could only be represented as 7 nations, not 10!  Why???  Because prophecy properly stated that 3 of the horns would be plucked up.  The 3 horns were plucked up by the root, meaning no restoration!   This took place in the 6th century, as per Uriah Smith.  We ignore this and try desperately try to make the 10 horns on the 4th beast stick.  We make it last all the way into our end time.  From the prophets' perspective, the "end time" is the Christian era.  In that context Daniel's interpretation makes perfect sense.  And to give you a push to grasp this correctly, read these words from the Savior. 

 

Mat 12:28 KJV  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

 

The Savior was casting out demons, when He trod our land...  Therefore, ______________________.

 

So, our former assesments about the "setting up of the kingdom" simply do not work and we need to work it out.  It is not hard, just figure out this minor detail.  Fill in the missing phrase and you are on your way.  History has shown our present view to be impossible and we struggle with this prophecy unnecessarily!  The problem is our staunch confidence in Uriah Smith's every interpretation.  That confidence should be placed in God's word. As things are we all have doubts, because prophecy and history are not lined up.  5th beast... 4th beast...  what gives?

 

The right explanation is simple. It makes the rest of the SDA prophetic interpretations into jewels.

 

If you still have problems with this study, here is an article which can make it very easy to grasp.  http://www.theotherprophecies.com/KingdomOfGod/Kingdom.htm

 

Let me stop here.  I hope that I have answered your objection Uhu.  This is a dear subject to my heart.  If I have been too wordy, please forgive...

 

Best regards,

 

 

Dennis

[hch]

Hi Hch,

 

Glad you asked, because that complex seems to be confusing to many.  Daniel verse 7:17 is in Hebrew and the term "arise" cannot be compared to Revelation 13:1 where it says that the beast will "CLIMB UP" out of the sea.  It is not the same discussion about the beasts.  Daniel 7:17 really says that these 4 beasts will ESTABLISH themselves or that God has APPOINTED them this role.  Whatever you choose is good enough for me.  When it comes to reading prophecies and getting the flavor of the word we cannot use the interpreted version in the English language.  If we do that, then we must conclude that Daniel contradicts himself in that chapter.  In verse 2 Daniel clearly says that the beasts "came up" (H5559) from the sea and later he says that they arose (H6966) from the earth.  So, King James team once again botched things up.  They should have interpreted it as "which shall establish (tehmselves) upon the earth".

 

So, these 4 beasts are said to have come up out of the water and established themselves upon the earth.  Therefore the "heaven's" interpretation is correct.  No problems there.

Now, here is an important point.  You said "But in Heavens interpretation that was to be sealed until the time of the end post-1844 (12:4 & 9)"

 

But you conveniently skipped verse 7.  Why?  Because that verse does not fit in Uraiah Smith's interpretation.  And it behooves us to question this with careful study. 

(Don't get the idea that I dislike Uriah Smith.  I am in awe of his monumental work of putting together ideas of many Christians up to his day in a very orderly manner.  The problems he had dealt with prophecies future to his time.  And there is a good reason for that.)

 

So let's see what we missed by skipping over Dan 12:6-7:

 

Dan 12:6  And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

Dan 12:7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

Primitive Christianity was nearly extinguished by the end of the Dark Ages.  But God saw fit to preserve it and immediately after 1798 Christianity bloomed!  Bibles began to be printed, preachers preached and conversions were taking place every place.  The Gospel circled the globe.  It can no longer be said that God's people are scattered today...  These things were finished in 1798 AD as the prophecy said it would be at the end of "time times and a half".  In effect, the angel swore by Him who lives forever that the Dark Ages would end.  And God is not a liar.  He kept His promise.  Chapter 11:1-45 of Daniel was fulfilled in its entirety to the letter without a single phrase being amiss by the year 1798. 

 

By the way, that is the very reason that we Adventists go in all directions on the prophecies from Daniel 11:40-45.  The very first word in 11:40 is misinterpreted and we are completely lost ast to what to do with that segment of prophecy.  We have myriad explanations within our denomination.  Every time there is a world event, wannabe prophets are spelling out their newest guesses.  It is the Arabs... no it is the Russians, no it is Aliens...  Heaven help us... 

But rather than get into that discussion and confuse everyone, let me point you to an important precedent, which may help you figure this out on your own.

 

In Daniel we see that Daniel has a vision and he turns to the angel for an explanation.  The angel accomodates Daniel and gives him an explanation.  But then he steps back and focuses on the latter part of his explanation, zooming in on the 4th beast.  That reprise is of special interest.  It is a precedent to remember and think about.  In sum, let me list the various parts of chapter 7 as follows:

1. (Dan:1-14)  Daniel discusses what he saw in vision and wonders
2. (Dan:17-18) The angel recaps the vision with some supplementary details
3. (Dan:19-22)  Daniel asks for more detail about the 4th beast
4. (Dan: 23-27)  The angel zooms in on the 4th beast

This modality of recapping details, from a latter point of the vision or original prophecy, is present in Daniel chapters 11-12 as well...  To think of those two chapters as a linear prophecy only going forward is to lead to confusion.  The simple fact that Chapter 12 returns to the time times and a half is proof of a fold taking place in the long explanation.  This is irrefutable.  It behooves us to rethink those two chapters carefully.   Try to find the folds on your own and how many folds there are and it will speak for itself. 

Now, the crowning jewel, which you so aptly have positioned to present your position Uhu...   

 

Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings

 

The days of those kings were no longer their days, the way that we SDA try to fit them.  The 5th beast has already begun to rule instead of the 4th beast.  The reign of the 4th beast is over with, if we look at history and Daniel's comment.

 

Dan 7:26  But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

 

The Judgement did sit as early as 1798 AD (in my view) and Rome's dominion was taken away.  As early as July 4, 1776 a young nation was rising out of the earth!  Since 1798 the Roman Empire dissolved into a "has been Empire" Historians call it the 2nd Fall of Rome.  In our SDA circle those days have been clamored as the end times by many of us. Today, however, we see that this does not seem to apply correctly.  And we are trying to make it fit. But the confusion is still there.

 

Here is the reason for the confusion...

 

Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:

 

The part in red is what people misunderstand when they read this verse.  They forget the important details expressed in verse 35.

 

Dan 2:34  Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Dan 2:35  Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 

 

The Savior came and set up His kingdom and that kingdom grew and grew and today Christianity is the largest of the mountains. 

The key to understanding most of the old prophecies lies in the "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom", a time when the 10 nations were 10 in number.

 

So, after the Dark Ages, another beast came to rule instead of the 4th beast.  The 10 nations, by that time, PROPHETICALLY could only be represented as 7 nations, not 10!  Why???  Because prophecy properly stated that 3 of the horns would be plucked up.  The 3 horns were plucked up by the root, meaning no restoration!   This took place in the 6th century, as per Uriah Smith.  We ignore this and try desperately try to make the 10 horns on the 4th beast stick.  We make it last all the way into our end time.  From the prophets' perspective, the "end time" is the Christian era.  In that context Daniel's interpretation makes perfect sense.  And to give you a push to grasp this correctly, read these words from the Savior. 

 

Mat 12:28 KJV  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

 

The Savior was casting out demons, when He trod our land...  Therefore, ______________________.

 

So, our former assesments about the "setting up of the kingdom" simply do not work and we need to work it out.  It is not hard, just figure out this minor detail.  Fill in the missing phrase and you are on your way.  History has shown our present view to be impossible and we struggle with this prophecy unnecessarily!  The problem is our staunch confidence in Uriah Smith's every interpretation.  That confidence should be placed in God's word. As things are we all have doubts, because prophecy and history are not lined up.  5th beast... 4th beast...  what gives?

 

The right explanation is simple. It makes the rest of the SDA prophetic interpretations into jewels.

 

If you still have problems with this study, here is an article which can make it very easy to grasp.  http://www.theotherprophecies.com/KingdomOfGod/Kingdom.htm

 

Let me stop here.  I hope that I have answered your objection Uhu.  This is a dear subject to my heart.  If I have been too wordy, please forgive...

 

Best regards,

 

 

Dennis

 

Dennis,

 

Thank you for attempting to answer my question. You made a noble effort. But there are many issues with what you suggest.

 

I appreciate your trying to understand my question and framing your answer to fit your understanding.

 

Considering what you said: "Revelation 13:1 where it says that the beast will "CLIMB UP" out of the sea.  It is not the same discussion about the beasts.  Daniel 7"

 

Summarizing EGW statement: "This prophecy [Revelation 13], which is nearly identical with the description of the little horn of Daniel 7, unquestionably points to the papacy.  {GC88 439.1}"

 

From EGW's comment Rev 13 and Daniel 7 are discussing the same beasts because the prophecies are nearly identical.

 

Came up and arose are different words from different languages that convey a nearly identical thought. The Scriptures Dan 7 and Revelation 13 agree with the Spirit of prophecy. Is explaining away their agreement rightly dividing the word?

 

You stated: "So, these 4 beasts are said to have come up out of the water and established themselves upon the earth.  Therefore the "heaven's" interpretation is correct.  No problems there."

 

which shall arise <06966> (8748) can be establish as you suggest,  but upon the earth does not stay true to the text.

 

"These <0459> great <07260> beasts <02423>, which <0581> are four <0703>, are four <0703> kings <04430>, which shall arise <06966> (8748) out of <04481> the earth <0772>."

 

Strong # 4481

 

1) from, out of, by, by reason of, at, more than

1a) from, out of (of place)

1b) from, by, as a result of, by reason of, at, according to, (of source)

1c) from (of time)

1d) beyond, more than (in comparisons)

 

The beasts that Daniel saw FROM the sea are being explained by Heaven as being FROM the earth.

 

The sea and earth in Revelation 13 are symbolically the same as that in Daniel 7 because the prophecies are nearly identical. To miss that point is to misunderstand that the meaning of the prophecy was sealed until the time of the end when "Daniel is standing in his lot."

 

To be able to explain that Daniel 12:6-7 end in 1798 is to acknowledge that Daniel 12:4 & 9 seal the meaning of the prophecy until 1798. Thus the meaning of Daniel relating to the kingdoms in Daniel 2 and 7 that were understood before the prophecy was unsealed is not the meaning that must relate to endtime kings from the earth that shall arise after 1798 when the prophecies of Daniel are opened and he is standing in his lot.

 

This information is sufficient to question the explanation that you so graciously proposed.

 

Because your position on Daniel 7 and Rev 13 does not align with the context and the Spirit of Prophecy,

I will refrain from commenting on the rest of the post that you shared.

 

There is a book that explains this topic that you you would be blessed to read: "America, the Obama Nation"

[LifeHiscost]

They are relevant to me, as is all the rest of the Word. Do I understand it all without lack ? Well, duh! Am I still capable of learning more. Answer: as previously. As long as the Holy Spirit attends my relationship with Him, the Word, and makes the effort, as instilled in me by Him, the Holy Ghost through the Word.

 

…16"By me princes rule, and nobles, All who judge rightly. 17"I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me. 18"Riches and honor are with me, Enduring wealth and righteousness.…Proverbs 8

 

5Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU," 6so that we confidently say, "THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?"…Hebrews 13 Emphasis theirs' LHC

 

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;…Phil 2

 

... I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same
brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. ...John 15:5 

 

There was danger that this party spirit would result in great evil to the Christian church, and Paul was instructed by the Lord to utter words of earnest admonition and solemn protest. Of those who were saying, “I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ,” the apostle inquired, “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” “Let no man glory in men,” he pleaded. “For all things are yours; whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours; and ye are Christ’s; and Christ is God’s.” 1 Corinthians 1:12, 13; 3:21-23.{AA 280.1}  [unquote] underlined mine LHC

 

Even so, come Lord Jesus! Amen!

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[hch]

They are relevant to me, as is all the rest of the Word. Do I understand it all without lack ? Well, duh! Am I still capable of learning more. Answer: as previously. As long as the Holy Spirit attends my relationship with Him, the Word, and makes the effort, as instilled in me by Him, the Holy Ghost through the Word.

 

…16"By me princes rule, and nobles, All who judge rightly. 17"I love those who love me; And those who diligently seek me will find me. 18"Riches and honor are with me, Enduring wealth and righteousness.…Proverbs 8

 

5Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER DESERT YOU, NOR WILL I EVER FORSAKE YOU," 6so that we confidently say, "THE LORD IS MY HELPER, I WILL NOT BE AFRAID. WHAT WILL MAN DO TO ME?"…Hebrews 13 Emphasis theirs' LHC

 

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;…Phil 2

 

... I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same

brings forth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. ...John 15:5 

 

 

By God's grace His children learn, grow and share.

 

It is when we refuse to look, listen, and follow that we get into trouble.

 

Remember Eve and Adam. Such a little deviation from a thus saith the Lord and the consequences.

 

Blessings upon all of God's children.

[brotherly love]

It would be highly speculative to read into Daniel chapters 2 and 7 to be about the Papacy. It would have been cruel for God to raise up prophets to guide covenant Israel who were in exile under the terms of the Law of Moses..but the message and historical context/situation was really about a 1798 Pope and Napolean Bonaparte.

 

This would have been over their heads as the inteneded audience in a specific historical situation.

 

The book of Daniel was written to believers who were living in a theocracy with borders. The text is comunicated to us through them in their culture, their epic of time and their occasional situation...not ours!

 

When we read into the text directly into our situation like computer bio chips, popes, revived roman empires to name a few, then we will deviate from the message and create our own message..then error begets more error.

The wellspring of most errors comes from the book of Daniel, and this error spills into the rest of the Bible

[Aliensanctuary]

One might consider that the sea from which the beasts arose more likely means the massive sea of people who have been resurrected at the end of the thousand year period. Nebuchadnezzar will once again rule a Babylonian kingdom for a short time until replaced by Medo-Persia, then Greece, followed by the final kingdom, a coalition of human and satanic armies.

 

Although the planet is all but destroyed and the people of YHVH slaughtered almost to extinction, in the end, the LORD will destroy all who have embraced evil. The great experiment is over and all who have submitted to becoming the servants of YHVH will be resurrected and live in peace on a new world in another place in the universe (aka, "heaven").

[brotherly love]

If I am correct, you believe that there will be a future Babylonian empire and king nebuchadnezzar follwed by a Mede-Persian kingdom, Greek Kingdom in a semi ripened golden age?

Is this probable? Highly unlikely! Just describing this scenario and paradigm is to refute it-unless a person blinded by a certain paradigm. When we come to these conclusions that mirror the historical context of Daniel, and then project the whole thing into our epic of time, we should take a step back and reconsider if we are not resorting to revisionism and/or ethnocentrism.

The message gets lost, and the text becomes more of an Edgar Cayce or Nostrodamus type espteric reading that has to be forced into the text.

Even though the book of Daniel is about Covenant Israel in exile, and the future torment by the hands of  Antiochus Epipanese IV and those loyal to him in opposition to the Law of Moses.

This was the ongoing plan of redemption that would culminate when the kingdom of God spilled from its defined national borders and was carried into every part of the world.

Here is an interesting article on the first 5 books of Daniel

http://holybibleforums.com/daniel-chapter-2/