Are Daniel 2 & 7 relevant today?

[Aliensanctuary]

Dan 8:17

As Gabriel approached the place where I was standing, I became so terrified that I fell with my face to the ground. “Son of man,” he said, “you must understand that the events you have seen in your vision relate to the time of the end.”

 

Dan 9:27

The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven, but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him.”

 

Dan 11:31

“His army will take over the Temple fortress, pollute the sanctuary, put a stop to the daily sacrifices, and set up the sacrilegious object that causes desecration.

 

Dan 12:11

“From the time the daily sacrifice is stopped and the sacrilegious object that causes desecration is set up to be worshiped, there will be 1,290 days. ¹² And blessed are those who wait and remain until the end of the 1,335 days!

 

As we can see, the vision of the 4 Beasts rising out of the sea of people occurs during the time of the end. Within this relatively short time period the sacrifices are ended, and, 1290 days later (3.6 years), the abomination of desolation is set up to be worshipped. Although some believe that 1290 days=1290 years, it's the same ruler who ends the sacrifices and sets up the abomination of desolation. He must be a long-liver indeed.

 

Daniel was given visions of the Time of the End, a period where all have been resurrected in order for them to make an informed choice as to whom they will serve. (The 144K are resurrected 1K years earlier.) Likewise, the book of Rev is about End Time events, not history.

 

Many believe the Time of the End first started when Nebuchadnezzar began his reign several thousand years ago, but I believe that they have been misled. Time of the End refers to a much shorter time period, just a few years in length, which occurs, believe or not, during the Last Days of planet Earth, probably less than 7 years in duration.

 

Dan 2:38

He has made you the ruler over all the inhabited world and has put even the wild animals and birds under your control. You are the head of gold.

 

Was there ever a time in history when Nebuchadnezzar wielded this kind of power?

 

His first kingdom was far from being a superpower, rather, it was just a small country about the size of Texas. The message to Nebuchadnezzar was to inform him that during the time of the end he would be the ruler of the entire inhabited world for a brief time.

 

The message gets lost, and the text becomes more of an Edgar Cayce or Nostrodamus (sic) type espteric (sic) reading that has to be forced into the text.

Even though the book of Daniel is about Covenant Israel in exile, and the future torment by the hands of  Antiochus Epipanese (sic) IV and those loyal to him in opposition to the Law of Moses.

 

huh?

[JoeMo]

Amen, AS!  I've been trying to say that for a long time.  The time of the end hasn't been going on for 2,500 years; but it might be upon us very soon.  If Daniel was referring to Antiochus Epiphanes, why would Jesus refer to the AoD many years after Antiochus?

We are currently in the midst of a Shemitah (Sabbatical) year.  Assuming that the years 1967 (the year that Israel decisively defeated all of its Arab enemies and recovered almost all of their ancestoral land) was a Jubilee Year, Sept. 2015 to Sept. 2016 will be a Jubilee year (just an opinion, not a statement of fact).

There have been increasingly catastrophic economic and geoplitical events at the end of every Shemitah going back to the beginning of the 20th century.  What could the end of this Shemitah bring?

http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Shemitah-000-Year-Old-Secret-Americas-ebook/dp/B00LKBSAZA/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429715326&sr=1-1&keywords=the+mystery+of+the+shemitah+by+jonathan+cahn

[LifeHiscost]

  What could the end of this Shemitah bring?

http://tinyurl.com/pqhjdnj

It could bring bring about our untimely end if our focus remains more on what doesn't apply than events that aid personal preparedness, which the old testament was preserved to help elicit our desire to be led at this most important time.

 

1The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2As it is written in Isaiah the prophet: "BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY; 3THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.'"…Mark 1  Emphasis theirs'  LHC

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[brotherly love]

As we can see, the vision of the 4 Beasts rising out of the sea of people occurs during the time of the end. Within this relatively short time period the sacrifices are ended, and, 1290 days later (3.6 years), the abomination of desolation is set up to be worshipped. Although some believe that 1290 days=1290 years, it's the same ruler who ends the sacrifices and sets up the abomination of desolation. He must be a long-liver indeed.

 

Daniel was given visions of the Time of the End, a period where all have been resurrected in order for them to make an informed choice as to whom they will serve. (The 144K are resurrected 1K years earlier.) Likewise, the book of Rev is about End Time events, not history.

 

The "time of the end" is rendered to many readers as the time of the end of the world, but this is not being true to the language of the text, the Hebrew phrase can be used to describe the end of many things. The end of a life, the end of a mponarchy, so on and so forth. If we stay true to the text and context of Daniel, the "time of the end" is the end of the 7 times curse of leviticus 26 for not repenting and turning to God after corrective action was taken. 70 weeks does not go into the 21 century like some propose, this can only result in allegory of the text (temple and sacrifice is the church) despite no claim of an allegory being made. Theology has to be re-worked and re-tooled to serve this schema.

 

I agree with you that the 1290 days is not years, this would be a very speculative interpretive tool and in essence sets up the reader as a type of inspired writer of the text because with this interpretive schema-anyone can massage the text to say whatever they want it to say..

The day for a year so called principal and the 360 day prophetic year are flawed-the Law of Moses could not function with these systems. Again, an intersting outlook can be found here:

http://holybibleforums.com/360-day-prophetic-year/

http://holybibleforums.com/day-year-principle/

 

The main problem with interpretations of Daniel is that most concentrate on the unclear and hard passages, and then interpret the easier parts in light of the difficult-this is not a trustworthy method of exegesis and can only lead to unclear outcomes. Any detective would be led to the wrong doorstep and be lost if they followed the same reasoning because it would be imagination and speculation that would then drive the investigation

 

Yet again, the inhabited world does not mean the whole world, the ancients did not have an understanding of a blue earth as we do-they did not have globes on their desks, nor did they have the eskimos in mind, or the Japanese, the context is their geographical area, and there are many examples of this in the text of the Bible

[brotherly love]

Amen, AS!  I've been trying to say that for a long time.  The time of the end hasn't been going on for 2,500 years; but it might be upon us very soon.  If Daniel was referring to Antiochus Epiphanes, why would Jesus refer to the AoD many years after Antiochus?

We are currently in the midst of a Shemitah (Sabbatical) year.  Assuming that the years 1967 (the year that Israel decisively defeated all of its Arab enemies and recovered almost all of their ancestoral land) was a Jubilee Year, Sept. 2015 to Sept. 2016 will be a Jubilee year (just an opinion, not a statement of fact).

There have been increasingly catastrophic economic and geoplitical events at the end of every Shemitah going back to the beginning of the 20th century.  What could the end of this Shemitah bring?

http://www.amazon.com/Mystery-Shemitah-000-Year-Old-Secret-Americas-ebook/dp/B00LKBSAZA/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1429715326&sr=1-1&keywords=the+mystery+of+the+shemitah+by+jonathan+cahn

 

This is a question that has a simple answer. The first mistake is to remove the historical context and place ourselves in the context-the Bible was written for us-but it was not written TO us. this is a big difference. The text was communicated for us through Covenant Israel, and this is where we can depart from the text.

The answer is simple: The people Jesus was addressing were very familiar with the horrors of Antiocus IV and the apostate Jews who turned their backs on God-Jesus simply tells them what happened in the past was going to happen agian "in this generation". Jesus also told the Sanhefrin that condemned Him the same thing. This may be lost on some in a 21 century church that thinks the world revolves around them, but I assure you that the words Jesus spoke were not misunderstood or confusing to the Sanhedrin-they knew exactly what Jesus was communicating to them.

The disciples were confused as they yearned for a kingdom of power and might-but Jesus came to teach us what power and might look like, and the kingdom of God confronted the kingdoms of man (rome and Israel) who mocked Him, beat Him and tortured Him in a display of might and power-Jesus won, and the kingdom of God overturned and Empire and rendered the theocracy of Israel obsolete. Messiah came to show us the way, and most have trouble seeing past the birth and resurrection of Jesus and ignore the whole message and ministry-the servitute of Jesus is the message-from king of the cosmos, to servitude on the cross

It may be hard to unwind sensational paradigms, but it is crucial to do so!

I assure you that the bible will unfold for you if you can unwind the prophesy pundits sophistry. They have been 100 percent wrong 100 percent of the time-from Sunday Laws to revived Roman Empires to Communism then to Islamic Caliphates the newspaper is not a solid source for Biblical studies. The bible is its own bewst interpretor.

[brotherly love]

 

 

 

 

Was there ever a time in history when Nebuchadnezzar wielded this kind of power?

 

His first kingdom was far from being a superpower, rather, it was just a small country about the size of Texas. The message to Nebuchadnezzar was to inform him that during the time of the end he would be the ruler of the entire inhabited world for a brief time.

 

 

 

 

The context has nothing to do with Babylon being a superpower the whole world-it has to do with Babylonian power over the covenant nation of Israel. Not over america, Great Britain or whatever country a person lives in. The context is Israel-plain and simple. Jeremiah was not raised up to guide a 21 century church in exile. Israel was in exile, and they were in exile because they were removed from the Land, and only in that Land could the terms of the Covenant be followed, and in that Land the Temple resided, which contained the presence of God. Now we are not contained by Land nor the Temple, as we are the temple of living stones in which God resides. We cant be exiled from God because of a piece of real estate in the middle east or the practices associated with the Land or Temple. To render the language of Daniel to the church after the cross will only lead to misunderstanding-and error beggets more error

[JoeMo]

I agree that neither Daniel nor Revelation explicitly mention America; and most alleged interpretations to America are hazy at best.  The Bible was written by Jews, for Jews, and about Jews; and any assumed references to America could well apply to many of the "nations" (Gentiles).

 

You said:

"I assure you that the bible will unfold for you if you can unwind the prophesy pundits sophistry. They have been 100 percent wrong 100 percent of the time-from Sunday Laws to revived Roman Empires to Communism then to Islamic Caliphates the newspaper is not a solid source for Biblical studies. The bible is its own bewst interpretor."

 

I do not say this in jest or in challenge; it's just a question - If what you say is true, what makes you think you're right?  Personally speaking, I have reinterpreted these prophecies for myself several times as my understanding increases and current events unfold.  I still call my understanding my "opinion" - not my "doctrine".  While the newspaper isn't a solid source for Bible Studies, it is a solid source for world events that facilitate our understanding of the signs of the times.

[brotherly love]

I agree that neither Daniel nor Revelation explicitly mention America; and most alleged interpretations to America are hazy at best.  The Bible was written by Jews, for Jews, and about Jews; and any assumed references to America could well apply to many of the "nations" (Gentiles).

 

You said:

"I assure you that the bible will unfold for you if you can unwind the prophesy pundits sophistry. They have been 100 percent wrong 100 percent of the time-from Sunday Laws to revived Roman Empires to Communism then to Islamic Caliphates the newspaper is not a solid source for Biblical studies. The bible is its own bewst interpretor."

 

I do not say this in jest or in challenge; it's just a question - If what you say is true, what makes you think you're right?  Personally speaking, I have reinterpreted these prophecies for myself several times as my understanding increases and current events unfold.  I still call my understanding my "opinion" - not my "doctrine".  While the newspaper isn't a solid source for Bible Studies, it is a solid source for world events that facilitate our understanding of the signs of the times.

 

It is nice to meet you JoeMoe!!

 

I agree, if we are to impose America on the text-what about Iran, Caliphates or any other scenario that comes our way-imagination becomes the interpretive tool.

 

I dont think we have to look at exegesis as I am wrong and you are right, or vice-versa. A better terminology would be wether we have hit the target, maybe not the bulleseye. When we stop learning and think we know it all-then this is a dangerous time for an individual in my opinion.

 

First of all, prophesy is about encouraging and guiding the faithful-it is not a crystal ball or tarrot card that has all to often been exploited by many people-that is my meaning of an edgar cayce or Nostrodamus type reading of the Bible. This means that, and that means this, and then run to the newspaper to fill in the blanks. An eagle means the USA and a bear means Russia-this is how people read the prophesies of nostrodamus. The Catholic church has a so called prophesy of Malachi Martin, and people just fill in the blanks to make it fit what ever Pope is elected.

 

We all come from different backgrounds and are at different levels of understanding in our reading of scripture-this does not make one person more of a Christian than another person. That being said, if we interpret Daniel to be about the end of time, then this also affects our doctrine. Ideas do have consequences, and in the case of Daniel, if you are to project the context into the future, then you have to project the Law of Moses into the future with sacrifice and temple included. Instead of going back to the table, the tendancy is for a person to try to make it fit, and this is what we see happening-some believe that there are two covenants for two distinct people, some believe that we are under the Law of Moses, and others use allegory to make it all work out.

This is why error begets more error

[JoeMo]

Hi there Brotherly,

 

I heartily agree with your post up to the part about interpreting Daniel.  The book itself proclaims the prophecy is about the end of time (See Daniel 8:17-19).  Verse 19 mentions the time of wrath.  This terminology almost always applies to the wrath of God poured out on the ungodly at the second coming.  In my opinion at this point in time of my understanding of prophecy, any other interpretation is a stretch.

 

I'm not closed-minded on prophecy; read some of my posts in other threads.  But I'm pretty stable on this point.

[brotherly love]

Hi there Brotherly,

 

I heartily agree with your post up to the part about interpreting Daniel.  The book itself proclaims the prophecy is about the end of time (See Daniel 8:17-19).  Verse 19 mentions the time of wrath.  This terminology almost always applies to the wrath of God poured out on the ungodly at the second coming.  In my opinion at this point in time of my understanding of prophecy, any other interpretation is a stretch.

 

I'm not closed-minded on prophecy; read some of my posts in other threads.  But I'm pretty stable on this point.

 

The first mistake is that the text claims that it is the end of time itself, this would be an incorrect translation of the Hebrew.

 

 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,”^[b] he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

 

The text is not claiming the end of time, it is claiming the end of a period of time, verse 19 gives the text context to "the time of the end"

 

 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end.^[c]

 

The passage states there is a "time of wrath" this would be a period of wrath over time, and the vision is concerned with the "later" or the "end" of that time of wrath. If we are true to context and historical context, the starting of the indignation/wrath would be the exile experienced by Daniel and the people of God in chapter one, this exile would continue after Daniel by foreign control and occupation by the four "beasts/kingdoms. The end of this period of wrath would culminate with a violent despot that would end sacrifices and persecute the saints before the cross.

 

There are many passages that mention the time of the end, in order to avoid a huge essay on Hebrew, I will pick one passage that comes quickly to mind.

 

Habukkuk 2:3

For the revelation awaits an appointed time;

    it speaks of the end

    and will not prove false.

Though it linger, wait for it;

    it^[a] will certainly come

    and will not delay.

 

-The "appointed time" and "end" mentioned in this book is not the end of time, it is the end of Babylon if we follow the context of the book. Word meanings are determined by context, and the context of Daniel is not the end of time just because it states the "time of the end"  in order to have a 'time of the end" there must be a "start" of something in order to have a "time of the end". The start of the time of the end is contained in Daniel chapter one which describes the beginning of the exile of Daniel, and the time of the end is the end of this indignation.

 

Daniel 8:9-13

⁹ Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. ¹⁰ It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. ¹¹ It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. ¹² Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people^[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

¹³ Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

 

-In order to project this past the historical context of covenant Israel in exile before Christ you would have to overcome the covenant language also in chapter 8

1.to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land.

-This is a clear reference to the location of Israel

2.daily sacrifice

-This is mentioned three times, and a person would have to project daily sacrifices into a paradigm that goes beyond the historical context, and this is furthered by the next part of covenant language.....

3.the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary

-In order to have a rebellion that causes desolation and the surrender of the sanctuary beyond the atonement of Jesus, you would have to force into the text a scenario after the cross in which the presence and Glory of God dwells amongst his people in a Temple in which sacrifices are offered in a certain geographical location

 

This can all be avoided if context and historical context is put into practice

[Aliensanctuary]

So, rather than cataclysmic events involving the entire planet, you would marginalize the time-of-the-end prophecies and project them into a much smaller area of the globe and a distant-past time frame.

 

Are you saying that the prophecies of Dan, Rev, and elsewhere, including the most important of them, the Day of the Lord, have already occurred and that there are no scriptures describing the end of the world/age?

[Aliensanctuary]

We all wear dark glasses preventing us from understanding the events that the symbols in prophecy describe. We can only blunder on until the events occur, except for those who believe that the Last Day events have already occurred.

 

I'm certainly no scholar of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, but I would be very interested to know when Christ returned to this world as he left, from the sky, that is. Perhaps he was just speaking figuratively, according to some.

[brotherly love]

So, rather than cataclysmic events involving the entire planet, you would marginalize the time-of-the-end prophecies and project them into a much smaller area of the globe and a distant-past time frame.

 

Are you saying that the prophecies of Dan, Rev, and elsewhere, including the most important of them, the Day of the Lord, have already occurred and that there are no scriptures describing the end of the world/age?

 

I would keep daniel in its historical context to whom it was written towards. The message is very important, and shows God is in control. The historical situation was for the faithfiul believers before the cross, biut it is applicable to the faithful of all eras of time-to those persecuted by ISIS and others, they will be vindicated and be raised up on the final day of judgement.

 

What you have created in your last statement is what is called a "strawman" statement. You have put words into my mouth with no warrant to do. The topic on this thread is Daniel-you then throw the whole Bible in a vague assuming statement.

 

If you want to do a study, you will find that there has been many "days of the Lord" in the New Testament it is also referred to as the coming of the kingdom. The "Day of the Lord" is referenced many times in the Tanakh, and it happened when God came in judgment for peoples sin and pride: Judah, Assyria, Egypt or Edom to name a few. This prefigures the final judgment on all people upon the second coming. There are not many direct prophesies about the end of time-yet they are all about it at the same time. 2 Peter 2 and 3 would be one of the more direct ones

[brotherly love]

We all wear dark glasses preventing us from understanding the events that the symbols in prophecy describe. We can only blunder on until the events occur, except for those who believe that the Last Day events have already occurred.

 

I'm certainly no scholar of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, but I would be very interested to know when Christ returned to this world as he left, from the sky, that is. Perhaps he was just speaking figuratively, according to some.

 

blunder or speculate wildly?

 

I would also be interested to know this information you have stated. I would also be interested in a much more honest conversation without the strawman comments please

[JoeMo]

Hey Brotherly,

Like AlienSanctuary, I am no scholar on the biblical languages.  I am also a subject/victim of my own study and experience.  In going with the preponderance of evidence and opinions of the majority of biblical scholars, I goota go with the theory that Daniel is in deed about the time just preceding the second coming.

 

Daniel 12:1-4 says :

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distresssuch as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

 

Who was resurrected at the end of the Babylonian captivity?  When was the increase in knowledge?

 

Daniel 12:13 says:

 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

 

Daniel didn't rise at the end of the Babylonian captivity.  He is still in his grave.  The time of the end spoken of in his prophecies has not yet occurred.

[brotherly love]

Hey Brotherly,

Like AlienSanctuary, I am no scholar on the biblical languages.  I am also a subject/victim of my own study and experience.  In going with the preponderance of evidence and opinions of the majority of biblical scholars, I goota go with the theory that Daniel is in deed about the time just preceding the second coming.

 

Daniel 12:1-4 says :

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distresssuch as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.4 But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

 

Who was resurrected at the end of the Babylonian captivity?  When was the increase in knowledge?

 

Daniel 12:13 says:

 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

 

Daniel didn't rise at the end of the Babylonian captivity.  He is still in his grave.  The time of the end spoken of in his prophecies has not yet occurred.

 

 

The prophesy has to do with the 4 beasts/kingdoms-those kingdoms that would rule over Covenant Israel during their indignation. To gain from the text that Daniel woud be resurrected AFTER the Babylonian captivity would not be in harmony with the plain meaning as the period of indignation involves 4 empires that would rule Covenant Israel-Babylon was the first of four.

 

Lets take a look at the verse, and glean from context what "end" the text is referring towards. We need to pay close attention to the personal pronoun "You"

Daniel 12:13 says:

 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Highlighted red: This is the end of Daniels life

Highlighted blue:This is the second coming, when Daniel is ressurected.

 

If we are to tackle context, the message of encouragment of Daniel 12 is the same promise given to Daniel-ressurection! Not only resurrection, but a ressurection with rewards and glory for being faithful and persevering from the coming conflict.

The whole book of Daniel arrives at the same address and front porch-there would be a great persecution from the fourth kingdom and a king from this kingdom that would decieve some of the covenant people, persecute the faithful and stop sacrifices.

This conflict is repeated in the book of Daniel, and gives more information each time. (chapter 2, 7,9, 10, 11 and 12)

Daniel and his friends are the quintessential example of faithful Israel, and each conflict (Chapter 1, the fiery furnace, the lions den) God delivers them for being faithful and perishing at the hands of pagan rulers. This is encouragment for the coming persecution they would face-actually two persecutions upon returning to the Land:

1. The attempt of Haman to destroy all of them.

2. The attempt of Antiochus IV to destroy the faithful.

 

The text is concerned with the persecution of the fourth beast and ruler.

 

While there would be death individually once the time of trouble began, remember that Daniel and his friends are the quintessential example of righteousness that  faithful Israel would need to hqve in order to overcome. There would be individuals who would physically die and perish in the persecution-but Israel would collectively be saved.

 

The promise for remaining loyal to God is resurrection, and this is the clearest passage of ressurection in the Tanakh.

 

Daniel 12:1-3

“At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered.

-This is a promise of resurrection and reward for staying faithful under persecution, not that the event itself was going to usher in resurrection. Here is the promise and the warning to those under the covenant, some would become deceived and persecute those loyal to God

² Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. ³ Those who are wise^[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.

highlighted red: Promise of reward and glory for staying true to God

highlighted blue: Promise to those who hate God and persecute those loyal to Him.

 

What is "at that time"?

 

The context of Daniel 12 tells us the specific event

 

Daniel 12:6-7

⁶ One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”

⁷ The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time.^[b] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”

 

And gets very clear:

 

Daniel 12:11-12

¹¹ “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. ¹² Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

 

This is the same conflict in the rest of Daniel

 

Daniel 7:25

²⁵ He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.^[b]

 

Daniel 8:11-12

¹¹ It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. ¹² Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people^[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

 

Daniel 9:26

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. ²⁷ He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’^[h] In the middle of the ‘seven’^[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple^[j] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

 

Daniel 11:31-35

³¹ “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. ³² With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him.

³³ “Those who are wise will instruct many, though for a time they will fall by the sword or be burned or captured or plundered. ³⁴ When they fall, they will receive a little help, and many who are not sincere will join them. ³⁵ Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

 

-it all leads to the same doorstep and address-antiochus IV, and the wellspring for the historical deliverance of hunakkuh.

 

To complicate matters, the Messianic figure comes after the persecution of the fourth kingdom and the persecutor. You would have to believe that the resurrection came before the messiah Jesus christ came

 

Daniel 7 13-14

¹¹ “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. ¹² (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

¹³ “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,^[a] coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. ¹⁴ He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

 

-If you notice, the direction of the messianic figure is going "up" to the ancient of Days-not down. This is the first advent and the victory of Jesus christ upon his resurrection-and it came as promised-after the fourth kingdom and its persecuting king was destroyed, and the faithful persevered past them all.

 

If you are willing to delve into this, the words of the new testament will be clear, the heavenly scenes in revelation in which Jesus takes the "throne" will be clear. The reference to the "abomination that causes desolation" with "let the reader understand" will be clear. Pauls references to the man of sin will be clear. The message of the beast and the woman that rides it will be clear. All the info in order to have wisdom to understand in revelation is in this book. Not imagination.

 

The alternative is endless speculation and rip off artists making a buck out of peoples fear of death-this is only a choice you can make

[Aliensanctuary]

The alternative is endless speculation and rip off artists...Not imagination...blunder or speculate wildly?...unless a person blinded by a certain paradigm...the text becomes more of an Edgar Cayce or Nostrodamus (sic) type espteric (sic) reading

 

Ouch! I felt those right between my shoulder blades.

 

Of course, anyone who can read Greek and Hebrew will already know the identity of the woman riding the Satanic Beast. Likewise, they will know the identity of the woman standing on the moon and clothed with the sun. Even though I have a reasonably clear idea of who those women are based on scripture, perhaps you (bro. love) could share that info with us.

 

All the info in order to have wisdom to understand in revelation is in this book.

 

All of the info needed to have wisdom in order to understand revelation may very well be in both the OT and NT, although more revelation may be given to mankind in the future.

 

Even though one may understand Biblical languages is no guarantee that they correctly interpret the highly symbolic language of prophecy. Perhaps some prophecies will not be understood until the events are upon us, or even behind us. Remember the 12 Disciples and Christ's occasional frustration at their inability to comprehend what he was trying to tell them? Too bad they didn't have degrees, but instead were common laborers for the most part. After their personal training with Christ, though, they had no need for degrees. After he was gone, then they began to comprehend what he was trying to teach them.

 

Someday our dark sunglasses will be removed and then we will all see everything clearly.

[brotherly love]

Ouch! I felt those right between my shoulder blades.

 

Of course, anyone who can read Greek and Hebrew will already know the identity of the woman riding the Satanic Beast. Likewise, they will know the identity of the woman standing on the moon and clothed with the sun. Even though I have a reasonably clear idea of who those women are based on scripture, perhaps you (bro. love) could share that info with us.

 

 

All of the info needed to have wisdom in order to understand revelation may very well be in both the OT and NT, although more revelation may be given to mankind in the future.

 

Even though one may understand Biblical languages is no guarantee that they correctly interpret the highly symbolic language of prophecy. Perhaps some prophecies will not be understood until the events are upon us, or even behind us. Remember the 12 Disciples and Christ's occasional frustration at their inability to comprehend what he was trying to tell them? Too bad they didn't have degrees, but instead were common laborers for the most part. After their personal training with Christ, though, they had no need for degrees. After he was gone, then they began to comprehend what he was trying to teach them.

 

Someday our dark sunglasses will be removed and then we will all see everything clearly.

 

The thrust of your post seems to be critical of those who are educated in the original languages of the Bible. In order for you be honest with your own criticism, you would have to bring that same criticism to the Bible every time you open it up because educated people in the original languages have translated it and copied it into languages from every tongue in the world.

[Aliensanctuary]

The thrust of your post seems to be critical of those who are educated in the original languages of the Bible.

 

Not so much critical as just aware that education alone may not guarantee the correct interpretation of prophecies involving symbols alluding to future events and actions, although knowledge of the Biblical languages likely does promote a better understanding of the writings of the prophets and their pov. Recall that several thousand years ago a child understood more about OT prophecies concerning the messiah than did the learned scholars of the day. We should be very careful about insisting that we are right about our interpretations of prophecy...the likelihood increases that we aren't...

 

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that portions of the visions in Daniel refer to the 4 kingdoms (now past), while other portions refer to events of the future, and, that there are more than one "time of the end" and "day of the LORD", and, that there are more than one halting of sacrifices/abomination of desolations.

 

 

Just as earthly baptism in plain water points to the future wash-up in the River of Life and prayer today points to a telepathic system of communication in the future, so, too, would the 4 Beastly Kingdoms have more than one appearance, once in the past, and once in the future. That surging sea of humanity from which the 4 Beasts arise brings to mind the inevitability of the tumult of widespread conflicts and conquests that would follow the 2nd resurrection. The resurrection would not necessarily be spread across the entire globe, but rather, be centered around Israel, spreading outward towards Africa, Europe, and Asia. I suspect that the land masses of North and South America and Australia will likely not be involved at all in the 2nd Resurrection.

 

(Out of time. No ISP at home. Have to post during breaks at work, so have to be quick. Sometimes I shoot from the hip and later regret it.)

[JoeMo]

Brotherly,

I think our main difference here is you have an historicist's view of Daniel; and I have a futurist's view.  Iv'e tried the historicist and preterist views; and they don't work for me.  Not that it matters; I think all who love and follow the Lamb will be in the Kingdom, regardless of their views on prophecy.  The Holy Spirit will guide those who listen just like He guided the original apostles whenever they needed guidance.

[brotherly love]

Not so much critical as just aware that education alone may not guarantee the correct interpretation of prophecies involving symbols alluding to future events and actions, although knowledge of the Biblical languages likely does promote a better understanding of the writings of the prophets and their pov. Recall that several thousand years ago a child understood more about OT prophecies concerning the messiah than did the learned scholars of the day. We should be very careful about insisting that we are right about our interpretations of prophecy...the likelihood increases that we aren't...

 

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that portions of the visions in Daniel refer to the 4 kingdoms (now past), while other portions refer to events of the future, and, that there are more than one "time of the end" and "day of the LORD", and, that there are more than one halting of sacrifices/abomination of desolations.

 

 

Just as earthly baptism in plain water points to the future wash-up in the River of Life and prayer today points to a telepathic system of communication in the future, so, too, would the 4 Beastly Kingdoms have more than one appearance, once in the past, and once in the future. That surging sea of humanity from which the 4 Beasts arise brings to mind the inevitability of the tumult of widespread conflicts and conquests that would follow the 2nd resurrection. The resurrection would not necessarily be spread across the entire globe, but rather, be centered around Israel, spreading outward towards Africa, Europe, and Asia. I suspect that the land masses of North and South America and Australia will likely not be involved at all in the 2nd Resurrection.

 

(Out of time. No ISP at home. Have to post during breaks at work, so have to be quick. Sometimes I shoot from the hip and later regret it.)

 

You state that study and education is not necessary because Jesus came in body and flesh and knew more than the scholars of his day is misleading in several directions

1. Jeusus is God, and the Author of the scriptures-it would not be normative for a person to be all knowing and be able to know scriptures without studying them and reading them. This is an idealistic stance, and is not normative.

2. To rely on the Holy Spirit alone, and then claim that my Holy Spirit or your Holy Spirit gave you or me understanding over and above another person creates a dilemna-whose Holy Spirit is correct?

 

The truth is that we are fallen, and although we are illuminated readers of the Bible, that illumination is necessary since we believe that the Bible is divine. This seperates us from atheists like richard Dawkins who is educated, but is not an illuninated reader, and beleives the Bible is the imaginative writings of men.

To be an illuminated reader of the bible does not give us special revelation over another illuminated reader of scripture, both who are illuminated readers of the bible both believe that the scripture is the written revelation from God to us.

If we combine our illumination with education, this is the difference maker, and although we may hit the target, we may not hit the bulleseye.

 

I believe that Daniel was all fullfilled in its historical content with the exile of Israel, and its short taste of freedom under the Hsamoneans. The future promise of thoise who stood firm in faith and did not abandon God even upon torture and death are promised their reward in a future resurrection.

[brotherly love]

Brotherly,

I think our main difference here is you have an historicist's view of Daniel; and I have a futurist's view.  Iv'e tried the historicist and preterist views; and they don't work for me.  Not that it matters; I think all who love and follow the Lamb will be in the Kingdom, regardless of their views on prophecy.  The Holy Spirit will guide those who listen just like He guided the original apostles whenever they needed guidance.

 

Hi Joe

 

A historist would be similar to SDA theology, that the scriptures specifically prophesy events not in their historical context, but throughout time. This is why a historist will see the Catholic Church and barbarian tribes, Ottoman Empires and then the USA.

A Preterist beleives that all prophesy is fulfilled-even the second coming and the white throne judgment.

I believe in neither, and I am also a futurist.

As we both believe in fulfilled proihesy, our difference is the extent of fulfilled prophesy.

 

We can learn about our faith, but knowledge does not save, accepting the light of God is what saves. We are discussing scripture amongst Spirit filled believers, so while we can discuss it vigorously-we dont have to throw around accusations of who is more saved.

There can be theological and social consequences for some beliefs though, even ones that are with the scope of Orthodox Christianity

[hch]

I had moved on to revise my current book: America, the Obama Nation.

It was published 4/21/15.

So when I came back to this thread I was surprised to see Brolove, Goe, and AlienS

still discussing Daniel 2 & 7, it was quite a surprise.

 

I read everything to catch up before posting anything.

Starting around post #30 there was allot that got my interest.

 

From my in-depth study of Daniel I have concluded that Daniel is relevant to the past, present and future.

His day through our day and all the way to the time when Michael stands for His people (and beyond).

 

Here's a brief note from my bio: (http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/DanielsRevelation)

 

God does not reveal things in Bible prophecy that are unimportant!

Yesterday's prophecy is TODAY'S NEWS! While the world slept,

I watched & explained from Daniel's prophecy (written 2600-years ago)

the things that are NOW upon us. Before Pope Benedict resigned I TWEETTED:

 

Pope Benedict XVI has but a very short time left (9/3/11);

 

Benedict XVI marks his last year with a Latin America trip (3/23/2012);&

 

Benedict XVI As I read Daniel’s prophecy ... might last till spring 2013? (9/30/12)

 

[we all know that he did not make it till the spring]

 

I don't claim to know everything,

but I am a Bible student that learns and grows as I continue to study.

NOW IS THE TIME TO STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED OF GOD,

A WORKMAN THAT WILL NOT BE ASHAMED.

But too many folks take the wait and see attitude of Noah's day.

When the rain was falling, & they were SURE: it was too late to go into the ark.

God wants you to live and to bring others to Him. Your loved ones & friends are depending on you.

Don't disappoint God. AND DON'T disappoint THE ONES YOU LOVE!

[brotherly love]

 

I had moved on to revise my current book: America, the Obama Nation.

It was published 4/21/15.

So when I came back to this thread I was surprised to see Brolove, Goe, and AlienS

still discussing Daniel 2 & 7, it was quite a surprise.

 

I read everything to catch up before posting anything.

Starting around post #30 there was allot that got my interest.

 

From my in-depth study of Daniel I have concluded that Daniel is relevant to the past, present and future.

His day through our day and all the way to the time when Michael stands for His people (and beyond).

 

Here's a brief note from my bio: (http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/DanielsRevelation)

 

God does not reveal things in Bible prophecy that are unimportant!

Yesterday's prophecy is TODAY'S NEWS! While the world slept,

I watched & explained from Daniel's prophecy (written 2600-years ago)

the things that are NOW upon us. Before Pope Benedict resigned I TWEETTED:

 

Pope Benedict XVI has but a very short time left (9/3/11);

 

Benedict XVI marks his last year with a Latin America trip (3/23/2012);&

 

Benedict XVI As I read Daniel’s prophecy ... might last till spring 2013? (9/30/12)

 

[we all know that he did not make it till the spring]

 

I don't claim to know everything,

but I am a Bible student that learns and grows as I continue to study.

NOW IS THE TIME TO STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED OF GOD,

A WORKMAN THAT WILL NOT BE ASHAMED.

But too many folks take the wait and see attitude of Noah's day.

When the rain was falling, & they were SURE: it was too late to go into the ark.

God wants you to live and to bring others to Him. Your loved ones & friends are depending on you.

Don't disappoint God. AND DON'T disappoint THE ONES YOU LOVE!

 

 

To glean the Catholic church or a Pope from the book of Daniel is just sophistry. You have taken a preconcieved idea and forced it into the book of Daniel with no exegetical warrant to do so.

Can you show me where the book of Daniel mentiions a Pope? You can't. To spread false witness against your brother is a direct violation of the ninth commandment.

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

What you have to do in order to project the book of Daniel into your future is to make the historic situation of Antiochus into a new situation and subsequent villian.

If you are willing to use this against another organization outside of the historical context, then you would have to accept the same imaginative scenarios against yourself.

Some organizations like some fundamental Jewish roots churches levy this same scenario against all other churches including SDA's. We all are trying to create new times and seasons to pry them from the law of Moses-Hellenistic churches influenced by paganists.

live by the sword-then die by the sword

[stinsonmarri]

I notice in the poll that most say that Daniel 2 and 7 is false and not up to date and I truly agree but not because of futurist, historist, and preterist. Certainly not for those who want to bash President Obama, although he is included in Daniel two which includes all kings, presidents, or even prime ministers. We as SDA must sit down and truly, listen to what EGW said when she wrote Testimony to the Ministers and Gospel workers, error lies in them who confirms these doctrines. I have been in the Church since the fifties and I have seen great change to my dismay. Both on error, we have held on to error and we have allowed more error to slowly creep into the Church. Sad to Uriah Smith was a thorn in the SDA Church and he along with Pastor Froom let the Church down a path that it has taken today. EGW reminded the ministers not to be like the Pharisees and Sadducees of YAHSHUA'S day or of the Papacy that think they hold the keys to Heaven and death (that is what hell means which is the English word for the Greek word Hades). TM p 105 We all come here to discuss our beliefs which is good because the Bible said to prove what we believe to see if it will hold up or is it in error! I would like to take a look at what the Bible says not by interpretation which is our major problem, instead just understand it without all the supposition, shall we?

Daniel, who was a prince, was taken because would not reach out and preach the word to the Heathen nations. Instead, they would turn to paganism themselves and ELOHIM warned that if they would not change, their fate would be in YAHWEH ELOHIM'S hand and that is exactly what happened to them. However, ELOHIM chooses who would be taken and he chose Daniel a prince who was loyal to ELOHIM. History is very important and it repeats itself. And we as human have many things in common. I live in Greenville Georgia but most think of this name as being South Carolina. The truth of the matter is there are many cities in United States with that name as it was in ancient days. Ur was one of the cities of the ancient empire of Babylon and the problem truly is racism. It is a shame that people refuse to give Afrikan people their history as we do both the Semitic and Japhetic ethnic groups theirs. The Bible specifically stated that Abraham Ur was of the Chaldeans who lived above ancient Syria. However all people move and migrated so did the Nubians, the Egyptians, the Sabeans, the Chaldeans, the Akkadians, the Aryans, the Persians, the Greeks, the Latinas who became the Roman Empire, the Germans the Spaniards, the English who took over America!  

By the time of the Kingdom of Judea, the Chaldeans moved from the north of the Euphrates River to the south and took over Babylon. Chaldeans were known to have many deities including YAH as Abraham ancestor knew about but chose to serve other deities instead. If you want to know truth, it is in history and the spade provides the evidences which are the facts. The problem is people as in the days of Noah act the same way today. They refuse to accept who made them and they are sinful now by nature. We claim to all be Christians but believe differently each claim their way is the truth. But if you stake them up with the Bible, they are not so they make all kinds of excuses like they did back in the day of Daniel why they should worship ELOHIM their way in of the right way according the Bible they all claim. That is why Judea was taken mix with unbelief and not leading other pagan nations back to THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT not a trinity but THREE INDIVIDUAL SUPREME BEINGS that created us in THEIR IMAGES not as a person which means human! Boy I am going to get flax by that bit of tidbit!

YAHWEH saw something in this particular king who had a stubbornness of mind about himself but he was a good man. If he wasn't then why allow the captured Hebrews boys to only vegan food? Now I am just going to sum up Chapter Two and continue with part two the Seventh Chapter of Daniel. Nebuchadnezzar II was a very smart king first being coregent with his father Nabopolassar who truly trusted his oldest son. Eventually, he did become king and his son was not like him and he wonder would this great empire last that he and his father build. He was not a Babylonian, the Chaldeans took over the city adopting and accepting the true priests of Babylon with respect. The differences are that the Chaldeans used astrology, magic, and demonic practices as level of understanding and created a school of learning in these practices. The doctoralship was the highest level as to become a Chaldean having all the tool, skills and trade of the arts. This was an advance university equal to our day but even matter. We today are so little minded to think we can surpass the ancient people who had brilliant mentality capacity! These Neo-Babylonians PHD's had convinced Nebuchadnezzar that they could read the mind and this is the key! YAHWEH ELOHIM wanted to show that only ELOHIM can read the mind, he is rulers of all kings, and it is ELOHIM that put them in office and can take them down! Remember that when you talk about President Obama because he is black! Yes, black men do matter equally to all men and YAHWEH allowed him to be king because YAHWEH is no respect of color or person in men we all come from both Adam and Eve.

Nebuchadnezzar was worried about his empire and it was at this time that YAHWEH wanted this king to become aware of the true ELOHIM who should be worshiped. His dream should three things, first it was THE HOLY SPIRIT that delivered the dreamed, secondly YAHWEH was and still is THE ALMIGHTY, Thirdly HE gave recognition to this king THAT YAHSHUA is THE SON OF THE MOST HIGH! Proof is when Nebuchadnezzar, himself saw THE SON walking among the three Hebrew boy in the furnace! When he Nebuchadnezzar called the top wise men in each level, notice he did not consider Daniel and his belief in YAHWEH. He felt after all Daniel DEITY was nothing since he was captured, same way we feel today with the black, let's be honest! Religion is that way too, that why Catholic gets mad with Protestants because they thought they controlled everything like it was in YAHSHUA'S day with the rulers and priest! Nothing new under the sun, let's not get angry and admit the truth! Nebuchadnezzar knew he had a dream but could not remember it. He knew it was extremely important because THE HOLY SPIRIT was working on his mind. Now the Chaldeans PHD's should be able to read his mind and tell him what he dream. They wanted him to tell them the dream, but he knew what stated and now they could not form. Have any of you notice what they said and how this important message was left in? Have you all notice the words used they said "gods," most do not even notice. These men knew that there was more than one as even the Adventist is teaching that is totally in error, there are THREE and the word ELOHIM is the plural form. YAHWEH was bringing it to even us today because THEY knew we would become delusional today to believe a lie!

Moving on these men told Nebuchadnezzar that only the true ELOHIM who does not reside with the flesh. They knew and this is what made the king angry they lied like our pastors and leaders do today also as was in the days of Noah, and YAHSHUA! People lie back them as they do today and all calm they follow the Bible. It is each of us that will have to choose whom you will serve a church, denomination, traditions and doctrines of men or the simple word of YAHWEH. To be honest that is why we are so confuse, too much garbage is thrown in the mix! That is what Nebuchadnezzar saw a bunch of liars and he was about to destroy them, including all the wise men that all practice to believe in some deity, don't you all understand it! But the captain respected Daniel and his companions and allowed them to confront the king and you know the rest of the story. This Chapter was not related to Daniel Seven and I will explain it in part two after you dissect this first. Sorry if you all felt this was long but you cannot truly answer two chapters without understanding history. The Bible is the greatest history book written, the spade proves it, and all the sciences shows the evidence and respects it, even if men don't. You cannot understand the Bible unless you understand history and true science first!

Before chewing me out, please sit down, read the Chapter first, and read the history as well!

Blessings!