Moderators lazarus Posted September 23, 2014 Moderators Share Posted September 23, 2014 Interesting,altho it started before the early 19th century. What explanation do you have for the atrocities by Africans on other Africans they captured for power and money and sold to the slave ships? Obviously they were not christians as we understand christians,so how does that fit with your belief that Christianity is to blame? Regardless of how many Africans lost their lives to other greedy and power hungry Africans,it does not whitewash slavery in America. You have this focus on one portion that has responsibility in that ,completely ignoring the shared equal guilt. Neither can be understood today by most of us. The black race made it possible and profitable,for themselves and others.We took full advantage of their greed and cruelty with our own. Native american tribes were guilty of atrocities against one another and this was considered normal. White atrocity is seen as something altogether different Other people did it too does not fit with your personal responsibility mantra. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Other people did it too does not fit with your personal responsibility mantra. I don't have any personal responsibility for slavery. None.It is a shameful part of our history as it is for any country. As is the treatment of the Native Americans. But that does not make it something that was created,caused and enacted by one race or christianity. That was the accepted way of life. Hard to understand. Anymore than I can understand the role Africans played in capture and sale of other Africans making profitable a terrible practice. You dwell only on the "responsibility" of white christians. African hands are as dirty. Exactly what is the difference between African slavers selling to slave ship captains and slave ship captains selling to plantation owners? Should you accept personal responsibility for the role your race played in a disgusting business? White settlers committed the same atrocities that other tribes did before the white settlers came. That behavior only became wrong when the white settlers were stronger and more in number. Does that excuse the white settlers? NO, But as the Native Americans behaved as their culture dictated and committed some terrible acts,so did the white settlers. I don't have any responsibility for the settling of this country or how it was done. Wanting those currently to take responsibility for past actions before they were born isn't possible. The sin of slavery is worn by more than white christians. Taking what you want from a weaker race is another sin worn by to many countries and people to count. It is/was not caused by one group Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 If slavery existed today in this country as it did previously,which of us has the greater sin? You,ripping innocent people away from family and home,placing them in chains,many dying as a result of your treatment, and selling for profit,or me? Buying those that survived,working them to death or at best giving them a minimal existence for my own profit and gain. Or are we both as equally guilty? Native American tribes waging war on other tribes because they were bigger and stronger and it was a way of life. Or the white settlers doing same,for same reasons. It was wrong for Native Americans to hurt and kill other tribes as it was wrong for white settlers doing the same. We can't go back and redo and change that Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aliensanctuary Posted September 26, 2014 Author Share Posted September 26, 2014 Conversely, What would America be like if only Christians lived there? Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 Bonnie, The vast majority of the Indian tribes had no ideas of owning land. The Indians fought what they thought of as wealth and because a young male had no other way of proving his manhood. Without counting coup on, or killing, an enemy he was a nobody in his tribe. He couldn't speak at their councils. He couldn't marry. He could hold no position of leadership. Thus, the Indian had to have war. The Indian did fight for territory, but not as a means of "owning" land. They wanted the territory for the what it held. The abundance of game and what it took for the game to live on--the vegetation and water. I have no proof of the following other than the knowledge that the Indian loved the land he lived on. He loved its beauty, its solitude, etc.... The evidence that this is true is that the Indian hated being moved to the reservation and off of the land he had lived on for generations. They pined for what they could no longer see and hear in their homelands. I know how they felt to a certain degree. I haven't had the chance to live in the mountains like I did as a kid growing up for many decades, and I still miss the solitude, the sound of the wind sighing through the grass and/or the trees. I miss the smells of the cedar, the pine, the fir, and many more. The mountains of the west will always be home, not matter where I live. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 As I read the different posts and the different ideas posted here I wondered how could anyone deny that Christianity made America a better place to live. That's like denying Christ's sacrifice has made this world a better place to live, or that God's influence on the world has not held back the tide of evil to a great degree. I sometimes wonder just who many of the people who post here are, and what their agendas are. LifeHiscost 1 Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted September 26, 2014 Share Posted September 26, 2014 I am well aware of that. The Indians would not have understood the concept of owning land as the white settlers did. Certainly they resented being moved from what was familiar to them. Still doesn't change the fact that there were warring Indian tribes taking what they wanted from other tribes. The white settlers considered them ignorant,shiftless and savage. Coming from the culture the white settlers did,I don't think that is surprising. The Indian tribes were ignorant to the ways of the white settlers but that certainly didn't make them ignorant. It is not a matter of...Other people did it too does not fit with your personal responsibility mantra. The behavior of the white settlers was morally wrong and should have been legally wrong.However they acted according to what their upbringing and culture told them was alright just as the Indian tribes did towards one another. The stronger taking from the weaker is as old as time itself. How all that has taken place will be judged by God,I haven't a clue. I am glad I don't have a vote in the matter as all that have abused others,held them as slaves etc would get my vote for the phrase,I NEVER KNEW YOU, and proceed to the hot seat. How will the Africans that captured,abused and sold other Africans for greed and power be judged? Don't know How will those that stood in line to purchase other human beings be judged? Don't know that either.Some here seem to believe they do as they reserve all their venom for one specific group. White Christians are responsible for the death of ten million Indians.Don't think so. All the immigrants poring into this country were not christian.There is a big difference between claiming to be Christian and being one. It is interesting to see how quickly the PC rush to reassure all that the atrocities committed in the name of Islam are only the work of a very few radicals. Have to tread carefully there,but no problem "Christians' are routinely flogged for what a few do. Any lunatic with a gun killing innocent people immediately brings calls for gun banning,even tho it is a very few that use them in this horrible fashion. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aliensanctuary Posted October 3, 2014 Author Share Posted October 3, 2014 If America becomes a caliphate of Islam, we will soon see what this country becomes without Christians. Perhaps there will be mobile decapitation centers set up at shopping malls used to behead Christians and anyone else non-Muslim. That would sort out the true Christians from the superficial ones. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 If the sky fell down tomorrow............. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 If the sky fell down tomorrow............. Hmmm.... Did you see the Bill Maher and Ben Affleck debate on Islam the other night? Affleck demonstrates just how easily Islam could take over in a PC society. Why? Because if you believe in nothing you'll fall for anything. Affleck believes in nothing but PC.... He's so into it he can't even admit what Muslim's practice and preach..... He's ripe for allowing a caliphate take over here because to oppose it would be "racist" or "extremist". Any highly PC person is. Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 White Christians are responsible for the death of ten million Indians.Don't think so. All the immigrants poring into this country were not christian.There is a big difference between claiming to be Christian and being one. And there's also a big difference than the figure of ten million if wikipedia is a valid place for verification. United States Authors, such as David Cesarani, argued that United States government policies in furtherance of its so-called Manifest Destiny constituted genocide.[61] Statistics regarding deaths due to armed conflict between Native Americans and Europeans are sparse, as in many case there were no records kept.[21] A study by Gregory Michno concluded that of 21,586 tabulated casualties in a selected 672 battles and skirmishes, military personnel and settlers accounted for 6,596 (31%), while indigenous casualties totaled about 14,990 (69%) for the period 1850–90. Michno's study almost exclusively uses Army estimates. His follow-up book "Forgotten Battles and Skirmishes" covers over 300 additional fights not included in these statistics.[62] According to the U.S. Bureau of the Census (1894), "The Indian wars under the government of the United States have been more than 40 in number. They have cost the lives of about 19,000 white men, women and children, including those killed in individual combats, and the lives of about 30,000 Indians."[63] Chalk and Jonassohn claimed that the deportation of the Cherokee tribe along the Trail of Tears would almost certainly be considered an act of genocide today.[64] The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the exodus. About 17,000 Cherokees—along with approximately 2,000 Cherokee-owned black slaves—were removed from their homes.[65] The number of people who died as a result of the Trail of Tears has been variously estimated. American doctor and missionary Elizur Butler, who made the journey with one party, estimated 4,000 deaths.[66] The native population of the United States has been difficult to pin down due to the lack of reliable source materials. Historian and Information Scientist, Dr. David Henige asserts that the modern trend of high population estimates is "pseudo-scientific number-crunching." While he does not advocate a low population estimates, he argues that the scarce and uncomprehensive nature of the evidence renders broad estimates(eg.as high as the entire population of the US at the onset of World War I) to be somewhat suspect, saying "Examining the methodologies used by "high counters" have been particularly flagrant in their misuse of sources."[67] Contemporaneous accounts of the effects of smallpox, among the native population suggest an 80% to 95% mortality rate of the entire population effected. Governor William Bradford wrote, in 1633, about the second reported outbreak (e.g. 1617, 1633) in New England: "... for it pleased God to visit these Indians with a great sickness, and such a mortality that of a 1000. above 900.and a half of them died, and many of them did rot above ground for want of burial, ..."[68][69] [unquote] God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeb Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 White Christians are responsible for the death of ten million Indians.Don't think so. All the immigrants poring into this country were not christian.There is a big difference between claiming to be Christian and being one. And there's also a big difference than the figure of ten million if wikipedia is a valid place for verification. Yeah, the amount of "hype" those who hate this country put out is incredible. The agenda is clear. These people are so blinded by either hate or ideology that it's easy for them to manufacture "facts". It's also easy for them to ignore what it must have been like to have lived on the frontier. On both sides there were those who hated each other, and those who sought to understand each other. Many of the mountain men such as Kit Carson married Indian women and had a high degree of respect for the Indian. They respected the Indian's courage, intelligence, way of life, honesty, and more. It's also not hard to see why a lot of people hated the Indians. All they had to do was to was to see someone they loved who had been tortured, scalped, and mutilated. It goes the same way for the Indian. All they had to see was an Indian woman and children killed and possibly scalped and mutilated. Then they hated too. They also had the motivation of seeing their way of life being destroyed by the white man. There was right and wrong on both sides. There always is in a war between two cultures who can't understand why the other one acts the way they do. LifeHiscost 1 Quote Liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith.Alexis de Tocqueville Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Yeah, the amount of "hype" those who hate this country put out is incredible. The agenda is clear. These people are so blinded by either hate or ideology that it's easy for them to manufacture "facts". It's also easy for them to ignore what it must have been like to have lived on the frontier. On both sides there were those who hated each other, and those who sought to understand each other. Many of the mountain men such as Kit Carson married Indian women and had a high degree of respect for the Indian. They respected the Indian's courage, intelligence, way of life, honesty, and more. It's also not hard to see why a lot of people hated the Indians. All they had to do was to was to see someone they loved who had been tortured, scalped, and mutilated. It goes the same way for the Indian. All they had to see was an Indian woman and children killed and possibly scalped and mutilated. Then they hated too. They also had the motivation of seeing their way of life being destroyed by the white man. There was right and wrong on both sides. There always is in a war between two cultures who can't understand why the other one acts the way they do. And yet it seems few understand clearly the wisdom in this counsel for a happy (human) family. 7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.…Gal 6 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted October 13, 2014 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2014 The religious persecution the immigrants were fleeing in Europe was, of course, *also* Christian... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 The religious persecution the immigrants were fleeing in Europe was, of course, *also* Christian... I think it wouldn't be wrong to identify that persecution as "professed" Christianity. No where in the bible is persecution indicated as other than the work of the evil one. 43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies....John 8 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aliensanctuary Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 The religious persecution the immigrants were fleeing in Europe was, of course, *also* Christian... Religions have a strong tendency to become intolerant and exclusive when they become a political power. It's not due to the teachings of Christ, which are apolitical, but rather, the intolerance is caused by human selfishness. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Conversely, What would America be like if only Christians lived there? It would depend on whether they were practicing Christians as defined by the character of Christ or Christians in word only. God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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