Charge Jose Padilla!

[lazarus]

On June 9, 2002 Jose Padilla--a.k.a. Abdullah Al Muhajir--was transferred from control of the U.S. Department of Justice to military control. Since that time, Padilla has been held in a navy brig in South Carolina.

Padilla has not been charged with a crime, and does not have access to a lawyer in his detention. This is a clear violation of the 5th Amendment, and probably a violation of the 6th Amendment. It is also a clearly abominable violation of the democratic traditions of the United States.

Padilla has been accused of plotting heinous acts of terrorism, particularly the setting off of a "dirty bomb". He has been accused of conspiring with members of al-Queda, and planning to scout for that terrorist organization, using the benefits of his U.S. citizenship. President Bush has designated Padilla an "enemy combatant".

These are frightening accusations, and they may be true. Accusations do not give the President the authority to lock someone away, however. According to the laws and traditions of the U.S., the way to determine who gets imprisoned is through the due process of a trial by jury.

Jose Padilla may be a traitor and a terrorist. But he was not captured in Afghanistan with a gun in his hand. He was arrested at Chicago O'Hare airport. If Jose Padilla can be held without criminal charges, strictly on the say-so of the President, then any American can be. That is tyranny. We must put an end to it.

It is essential that Padilla be either freed or charged with a crime.

http://www.chargepadilla.org/

[Neil D]

It is against the founding principles of this country to hold a man indefinately. In fact, the words "swift trial" are used. And while I do not want to get bogged down with the pracalities of a swift trial, the priniciple of trial by jury is definately a prinicple that our founding fathers insisted upon, given thier knowledge of Old World tactics from monarchs with tratorous individuals who hated them.

Our forefathers insisted upon a trial by jury of our peers to establish guilt or innocence. And that a man was to be concidered innocent until proven guilty. The burden of proof should be upon the goverment of an open society. Not upon the whim of one individual.

If this man is guilty, let the goverment bring forth thier evidence and let us determine if he is guilty or not. But let us not violate the very foundation of our open society nor the priniciples of our values.

[Jeannieb43]

What's the old mantra on this topic?

"They came for the Jews. I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Jew.

They came for the Russians. I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a Russian.

They came for the homosexuals. I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a homosexual.

They came for the women. I didn't speak up, because I wasn't a woman.

Then they came for me. But there was nobody left to speak up for me."

[Dr. Shane]

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Jose Padilla may be a traitor and a terrorist.

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I would think his status as a US civilian would assure him a speedy trial. I was once arrested, got out on bail and it was over 10 months before they decided not to indite me! So I had to check in with a bailbondsman every week the whole time - at least I had a lawyer.

Now if he were not a US citizen he would have very few rights. Living on the border, I can tell you, the illegals cought coming accross have just a few more rights than the stray cats.

[Neil D]

This is from that leftist [and I say that loosely] organisation "Human Rights First"....See if you agree with it...

[:"blue"] In the Courts

Jose Padilla, U.S. Citizen

José Padilla, a Brooklyn-born U.S. citizen, was arrested by civilian authorities on May 8, 2002, at Chicago's O'Hare airport. He was originally held as a material witness in New York in connection with the government's ongoing investigation into threats of terrorism. In June 2002, the President designated Padilla an "enemy combatant," and ordered him transferred from civilian detention in New York to a military brig in South Carolina. He has remained there ever since, without charge or trial, and with limited access to an attorney. On December 18, 2003, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit held that the executive branch does not have the constitutional or statutory authority to indefinitely detain U.S. citizens seized on American soil. The Court held that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had to release Padilla from military custody within 30 days. Rather than release Padilla, the government appealed the case to the Supreme Court. On June 28, 2004, the Supreme Court ruled on narrow technical grounds that the case of Jose Padilla should be heard in a federal court in South Carolina, rather than by a federal court in New York. The Court ruled that Padilla improperly named Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld as the Respondent, instead of the warden of the military brig where Padilla is held. During the same month, the Supreme Court also ruled in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld that a U.S. citizen captured in Afghanistan and labeled an “enemy combatant” could not be held indefinitely at a U.S. military prison without the assistance of a lawyer, and without an opportunity to contest the allegations against him before a neutral arbiter. Despite Hamdi, the Justice Department has continued to restrict Padilla’s communications with his lawyers, and opposed his efforts to expedite consideration of his petition for review. In February 2005, the federal district court in South Carolina held that the Government could not hold Padilla indefinitely without access to a court, and must charge or release him. But in September 2005 the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit overturned the district court, ruling that Congress had authorized his detention [/]

Now it's a given that Jose's life is one that includes lots of stints in and out of jail for various petty crimes...Including road rage... Here is a site that bio his history. Let's face this, Jose is no poster child for the boy scouts....The legal question that I am faced with is, is this man an American Citizen or is he a combantant against the US? And even if he has conspired against the US to hurt it's citezens, are there now laws to try him under as a US Citizen [albeit a bad one] to put him away for a long long time?

[Dr. Shane]

Well he was indited today. It is about time.

[Bravus]

Albeit not on the original charge that was mooted of planning a 'dirty bomb' attack in America, and not the other charge that the administration mentioned along the way of plotting to use heating gas to blow up apartment buildings...

[Neil D]

I would be suprised if he gets out on a technicality, specifically , being held without counsel for 3+ years. That alone should be sufficient to drop the charges against him.

[Dr. Shane]

I think, whatever he gets, the 3+ years will just count as time served. So if he gets 10 years he will only have to serve 7.

[lazarus]

the crazy thing is that he actually spent 3 years without charge. That could be anyone of us. Actually, only if we have funny sounding names and brown skin. Can you imagine JOhn Walker Lindh being held for 6mths without charge etc.. This is racist America at work!

[Dr. Shane]

I don't see any racism at all here. While I agree that Jose Padilla's constitutional rights were violated, I don't see it as a race issue.

[lazarus]

Can you imagine John Walker Lindh(or another white boy) being held for even 6mths without charge etc?

[Dr. Shane]

I can imagine myself being held 6 mnths without charge. In fact, when I was falsly arrested I got out on bail but they went over 10 months without inditing me.

[lazarus]

Quote:

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Shane said:

I can imagine myself being held 6 mnths without charge.

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under what circumstances?

[Naomi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

lazarus said:

Can you imagine John Walker Lindh(or another white boy) being held for even 6mths without charge etc?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Well, Yes, I can. The son of a lady in my neighborhood is in his late 30ties. Blue-eyed, blond, fair skinned, etc. He was held for over 7 months without being charged. In the end he was released and no charges were ever filed.

[Dr. Shane]

I hate racism. Yet seeing racism where it doesn't exist doesn't help the cause - it turns people off from it.

[jasd]

That it is only the human race, notwithstanding, and addressing the provocative:

>>This is racist America at work!<<

I suppose a “racist America” has many facets…

Actually, racism cuts every which way from sundown. Has anyone seen Jamie Foxx, Snoop Dogg, Danny Glover, Fishburne, the Rev, et al, agitating for the release of some so-called ‘reformed’ white boy? Nah,

just Tookie-with-attitude who co-founded a gang-in-the-hood that has since spread nation-wide and killed hundred, thousands, more…? whilst still not yet having hit high gear. So,

when were the above-named luminaries ever hectoring for some poor white nobody with a name like Smith? And,

mebbe we oughta revisit the most recent LA riots in which 2,000 +/- businesses of a targeted ‘race’ were burned to the ground -- and by what ‘race’, I ask? As I said,

‘racism’ cuts across many lines. Regrettably,

that’s life. One can only, by due diligence, restrain one’s own self becoming caught-up in its biases and its seamier aspects.

[lazarus]

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In the end he was released and no charges were ever filed.

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In the USA? I doubt that very much. What were the circumstances. The whole point about Padilla is that the 5th Amendment prohibits this but somehow he Padilla was locked up for three years.

[lazarus]

Quote:

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Actually, racism cuts every which way from sundown. Has anyone seen Jamie Foxx, Snoop Dogg, Danny Glover, Fishburne, the Rev, et al, agitating for the release of some so-called ‘reformed’ white boy?

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There are many reformed white boys that get help and support Oliver North, G Gordon Liddy, they often end up on Fox news!

Williams is now a celeb..he's not poor...he's notrious..he's a four time peace prize nominee.

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mebbe we oughta revisit the most recent LA riots in which 2,000 +/- businesses of a targeted ‘race’ were burned to the ground -- and by what ‘race’, I ask? As I said,

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by what race? what assumtions have you made? lets hear what you think but research it first before your reply.

This is revealing. So I better shut up about Padilla because those blacks rioted in LA. Don't talk about racist America because the blacks are the same as, perhaps worse.

Give it a few years Walker lindh will be on Fox news as Reverend Lindh.....interviewed by non other than Sean Hannity, no Heraldo thats it!

[Dr. Shane]

I don't even know who was holding Padilla. Was it the Justice Department or the Pentagon? They treated him as an enemy combatant, which he was accused of being. However he is also an American citizen and he was denied his rights as a citizen.

If he is guilty of treason he will lose his rights and perhaps his life. However since he is to be presummed innocent until found guilty, he should have had his rights. Regardless, the government was in the wrong in his case - even if he is to be found guilty.

Now the idea this is only happening to him because of his race is unfounded. This is happening to him becuase of his terrorist connections. We are at war with Islamic fundamentalists and Padilla was sympathetic to them. Many hispanics (the same race as Padilla) come accross the border illegally every day and do not have the types of problems Padilla has had.

So the government was wrong but not motivated by race.

[lazarus]

Quote:

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Now the idea this is only happening to him because of his race is unfounded.

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I don't know who said this was only happening to him because of his race. I was not me.

My point is that if he were white:

1. There would have been more sympathetic media attention. his background, his family, his school, his friends would have all been profiled.

2. The Fox question would have been. What made Padilla turn against his country?

3. The right wing media, Fox, Limbaugh, Haniity would have been more sympathetic to his cause as they were (in tone)generally with lindh.

Here we go here's limbaugh......

"The analogy is hardly perfect, but wouldn't Johnny Walker have a defense by professing:

1.) I went to Afganistan to study Islam before Sept 11 (which apparently, he did). Not to fight a war I couldn't forsee.

2.) I couldn't express regrets for the attack of 9-11 because of the company I was in.

3.) I couldn't express those regrets in front of the CIA during my interview prior to the prisoner uprising because they could (and did) put me back in the compound with my "comrades". (This according to Newsweek)

4.) The Taliban is hardly an "all volunteer force" and they drafted me.

Unless he's caught on tape firing a rifle at US troops (and Johnny Cochrane can explain that away), it seems like he can cite a precedent. It seems that he can explain that he was dumb, or caught in an impossible situation, and, so, he's not at fault.

Keep in mind that if he's a stupid kid, caught in an impossible situation, drafted in the Taliban, I wanna give him the benefit of the doubt (but not spare him a trial). If he volunteered to fight, and now wants to weasel his way out, I have no sympathy for him. If he shot at our troops, may Allah have mercy on his soul, cause I never will."

I can't imagine Limpbaugh being so sympathetic with a brown skinned terrorist! Can you?

[Dr. Shane]

I am married to a hispanic woman, my children are half-breeds (what a terrible word ) and the community I live in is largely hispanic. In fact, when Jose Padilla was first arrested I had a guy on one of my projects named Jose Padilla. I am sensative to racism and have taken some members here at C/A to task over racist comments. I do not see race playing a role here.

I think it hardly fair to lump FOXNews in with the right-wing media. FOXNews does not try to be objective. In that they are different than other news networks. FOXNews strives to give voice to both liberals and conservatives. That is why they call themselves fair and balanced.

Someday another network like CNN or MSNBC may follow step. As of right now, FOXNews is the only news network doing that. If the day comes when another network follows step we can than compare them to FOXNews and say they are more or less balanced than FOXNews. At this time FOXNews stands in a category all by itself.

The mainstream media has had a liberal bias for a few decades. Before cable TV and talk radio, conservatives had a hard time getting their message out. FOXNews is labeled conservative because it allows conservatives to have a voice. However they also give a voice to liberals. We can contrast that to Rush Limbaugh and many other talk radio hosts that do not give voice to their opposition.

[jasd]

>>There are many reformed white boys that get help and support Oliver North, G Gordon Liddy, they often end up on Fox news!

Remember ‘born again’ Karla Faye Tucker? Correct me should I err… but were Foxx, Dogg, Glover, Fishburne, Rev, et al picketing State of Texas for clemency for Karla? perhaps, I diverge, as after all –

Hollywood is not Texas…

“The great secret, Eliza, is not having bad manners or good manners or any other particular sort of manners, but having the same manner for all human souls:” --Prof Higgins

>>…he's notrious…<<

Well, give him that.

>>..he's a four time peace prize nominee.<<

Re: Peace Prize:: “Past nominees include Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro."

Re: Nobel Prize in Lit:: "… being nominated by one or a few of the hundreds of thousands of eligible nominators is little evidence of such merit. This is especially so when the nominee is a source of controversy, and when it may seem that nominating him may prevent his execution.” -- LATimes

>>by what race?<<

Are you one of those who will not own a television?

>>what assumtions have you made?<<

Did I err in referencing the above as “the most recent…”

>>…lets hear what you think…<<

It’s in my above post.

>>…but research it first before your reply.<<

Are you questioning the numbers? y’know, 2,000 +/-? some accounts state the numbers higher…; otherwise, I was there. The Harbor and the Santa Monica freeways were closed; detours were avoided for fear of the ranging mobs; non-related businesses were shut down (until the riots were quelled) for lack of access; wall to wall coverage; our skies were a pallor by day and hellish by night -- and murder, arson, and looting roamed our streets.

Exactly, what research did you have in mind?

>>This is revealing.<<

Depending upon the inferences drawn…, as intended.

>>So I better shut up about Padilla because those blacks rioted in LA. Don't talk about racist America because the blacks are the same as, perhaps worse.<<

So, the above query “by what race” was, after all -- simply rhetorical?

No, it is not necessary to “shut up about Padilla”. I addressed the slur “racist America” (and with its following) -- taken, ‘you white boys’; besides, ‘racism’, inherent, or culturally acquired, must be dealt with by all ‘races’.

“There is no key to racism, the door is always open. It remains that one shuts it.”

>>Give it a few years Walker lindh…<<

Indeed.

[lazarus]

why is "racist America" a slur. Its like Black America...America is not black but a part of the America population is. America is not racist but there are significant numbers of people who are.

‘you white boys’

Who said that...not me!

Are you white? I'm not African American!

"must be dealt with by all ‘races’."

agreed

[lazarus]

Quote:

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I think it hardly fair to lump FOXNews in with the right-wing media. FOXNews does not try to be objective. In that they are different than other news networks. FOXNews strives to give voice to both liberals and conservatives. That is why they call themselves fair and balanced.

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We've had this discussion before and we really didn't get very far.

I will simply say that the above quotation represents a viewpoint that is not reflective of an opinion that is consistent with a knowlege of the available facts.